Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

[TonyBS]

So let me get this straight. You encourage us to be unified. you want us to be all one big happy family and agree to a Bahai solution to the mismanagement of the world and yet you wish Christ will bless my choice regarding the fundamental division between Bahai and Christianity?

That would be like me asking Jesus to bless Satan in causing someone to become an atheist. It goes against what Christ wants and I assume as Bahai you believe Jesus wants CHrsitians and Bahais to be unified? Why on earth would you wish him to bless my choice in this regard?

This is the sort of vacillation I see in Bahai, the utter complete lack of conviction regarding anything they believe. You would rather bless someone in error than correct them. Why not rather say “I will pray that Christ will guide you to the correct choice”?

I believe that your Love for Jesus the Christ will guide you

Thank you for your prayers, they connect us all.

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian

If it wasn’t for Baha’u’llah Christ would not have appeared and the Bible would NOT have been revealed and neither would Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad or the Bab have appeared or Their Scriptures been revealed.

That’s how great this Revelation is. Christ came because of Baha’u’llah, to prophesy about Him and prepare the world for Him.

It’s staggering but people will all wake up. Humanity has entered a new cycle. The Adamic cycle has ended and the Bahai cycle of 500,000 years has begun. You cannot fathom it that you are surrounded by everything good you have has come from Baha’u’llah. Your mind can’t appreciate what’s happened.

Claim claim claim claim claim. This is all you seem to do to world and it’s getting rather annoying. A preacher is only as good as he is able to convince someone and making repeated claims is not a demonstration of them. You claim Ali Nuri is the reason behind Christ? The Father almighty is the reason behind Christ and he is the one who sent him, not your prophet. I know that you will claim your Ali Nuri is the Father whom Jesus mentions but that is not justified in the text of the New testament. Jesus is not speaking about a lesser entity but God himself. Don’t play this confusing game of referring to Ali Nuri as God when convenient when we already know you make an absolute distinction between the ONE GOD and the “gods” you call manifestations.

You are wondering away from the topic at hand which was the influence of Ali Nuri which you still have not been able to demonstrate in a convincing manner. I gave you examples of Christian influence but you have not given examples of comparable scope regarding the sinful man Ali Nuri. Instead you attribute everything good to him regardless of other considerations and that isn’t reasonable,

The New testament Father is not Ali Nuri he is the God who created the heaven and the earth, the utterly transcendent Father who spoke to Abraham and who Moses saw. Ali Nuri is not needed for the New testament to make sense.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I believe that your Love for Jesus the Christ will guide you

Thank you for your prayers, they connect us all.

God bless and Regards Tony

Tony, would you wish God would bless a man that he fall into a hole and die? If not, why wish for something you consider utterly false to be blessed by God? It wasn’t just me you wished to be blessed but my choice. My illicit choice (in your world view) that is wrong. It’s like wishing a man to be blessed in his choice to sleep with a prostitute. It wouldn’t make sense.

 

[worldcitizen]

Those first two points can be contested from a bahai point of view because as Christians if Bahai religion is correct we don’t believe in the same God. We believe the Holy Spirit and the Son to be God with the Father, not in the sense you apply the term “god” to them, but in the sense they are “the” “one” “God.” The Father Son and Holy spirit are not for us what tehy are for you and hence in worshipping the Son in the way we do we are actually violating the first commandment if the Bahai religion is true because we are worshipping that which is fundamentally not the One God. This is proven by the Bahai division between manifestation and God. You make a clear distinction and laugh at our idea of the incarnation as if God would take to himself flesh and dwell among us (servant at any rate mocks us for this belief, which is his right). You believe in a God who is seperate from the world, the only way he talks to us is through his manifestations who are mirrors of him, not him himself, right? Or is Ali Nuri the eternal transcendent Creator who is beyond the universe incarnated for us?

So we don’t actually agree on the first two points, hence our division is set up from the get go. We disagree on the most basic level. What unity is there then? A mere political unity? In that case it would be no different from a secular nation state, wherein there are groups of individuals divided according to their creeds. It’s not a unity that actually matters, it’s not a spiritual unity.

I will ask my question again, what do Bahai do with the individuals like myself who mark the clear division between Bahai and Christianity? Do you continue to say we are really united despite my protests? Do I have a choice as to whether or not I am actually united with you or is it the Bahai who determine exclusively who is unified and who is not?

What you believe has nothing to do with our unity. You are our fellow human beings of the same one human race created by God. We are related by the decree of God. Unity in diversity not unity in uniformity. Look at nature and the diversity yet it is unified.

As to whats correct and what’s not that’s between you and God and me and God.

What we believe in as far as Jesus or the trinity or God doesn’t change that we are all human beings created by one loving God. So, our common humanity already unites us and that we were all created by God unites us in God again. There is only case for unity nothing else.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus Christ said He would raise His physical body from the grave. the bahai say Jesus was wrong. they say the grave was not empty the morning of the first day of the week.

this is about as fundamental of a difference as there is.

Jesus Christ taught us that there were Three Persons in the One God. the bahai teach that this is not true. this, also is a huge difference between christianity and bahaism.

Jesus Christ taught us that He is the ONLY Son the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, true God and true man. the bahai say Jesus is wrong, he is a man no different from bahaullah or mohammed or the buddha. once again, an enormous difference between the teachings of Jesus, the God-man, and bahaullah, who alleged he was special as a manifestation of God.

Jesus promised that our bodies we would also be raised, individually, from the dead; and, that His followers would experience perfection and eternal joy in heaven in perfect unity with the Triune God. the bahai do not have this doctrine. a difference between christianity and bahaism that cannot be overestimated.

these are a few comparisons between the teachings of Jesus Christ and the teachings of bahaullah. there are many others.

christians see it as complete foolishness for a man to reject the promise of the bodily resurrection and the gift of eternal and perfect life with God.

as i said the differences between the teachings of Jesus Christ and bahaullah cannot be reconciled to each other. there is an infinite and impassable chasm between them.

finally, God did not create or cause this impassable chasm. the ones who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ create it.

Can any Catholic share with us what the purpose of the body is in heaven?

Anyone?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

What you believe has nothing to do with our unity. You are our fellow human beings of the same one human race created by God. We are related by the decree of God. Unity in diversity not unity in uniformity. Look at nature and the diversity yet it is unified.

As to wants correct and what’s not that’s between you and God and me and God.

What we believe in as far as Jesus or the trinity or God doesn’t change that we are all human beings created by one loving God. So, our common humanity already unites us and that we were all created by God unites us in God again. There is only case for unity nothing else.

If what I believe has nothing to do with your unity then what does your unity stand for? Does it take into consideration the commandments? Love the lord your God with all your heart? Since it has nothing to do with your unity my responce to that commandment and likewise the other which says do not worship other gods, then your unity is merely a secular unity and at it’s heart is no different from the unity which which atheists and secularists and even some religious folks want. They want to simply live in peace and harmony too, but is that the unity of God? Is that a unity which glorifies God? Nope, that’s a unity which tolerates ungodly things for the sake of peace.

My point regarding the trinity was not that we were created by God. I never argued that point, only that Bahai cannot reasonably argue that we worship the Same God, that Christians are to be reprimanded for attributing deity to that that which is not deity. Again, clarification, not the in the vague lesser sense of your application of the name god to manifestations but to the One God. If that is the unity that Bahai want to envision for the world, it is not a unity that is any different than the unity we see already. Most of us admit we all human and in that way we are unified, even if we want to kill each other sometimes. That’s not a new idea nor is it particularly special.

 

[Servant19]

So Bahaism is more like a social club than a Religion.

Comedy is your strongest talent Joey

Ever considered a career?

.

 

[Servant19]

If I add…lemon,coke, peach and root beer… to my Chocolate milk… is it still Chocolate milk ?

No but at least they can all get together and become an awesome DRINKS BAR!

Let’s get together and make Gods DRINKS HEAVEN!

Right in the middle we will put a fountain:

Beware lest ye be hindered by the veils of glory from partaking of the crystal waters of this living Fountain. Seize ye the chalice of salvation at this dawntide in the name of Him Who causeth the day to break, and drink your fill in praise of Him Who is the All-Glorious, the Incomparable.
– Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p.38

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[Servant19]

I compare and contrast the world of the time of Jesus too his teaching. I look at the spread and influence of Christianity as it gradually grew in society. Do i attribute something in india, separated by a long distance that happened sometime after Christ then directly too him? No. But do I attribute the outlawing of crucifixion in the Roman empire to Christendom? Yes. Do I attribute some of the great works of literature throughout the centuries, Dante’s inferno, Paradise Lost to Christianity? Yes. Even works not explicitly Christian like that of Shakesphere I attribute partly to the influence of a Christian culture within Britain. You can see the influence of Christianity in the abolitionists, in the missionary efforts throughout the centuries. Saint Basil the great in the fourth century opened hospitals. Christians took in infants who were abandoned and raised them up as Christians. The outlawing of gladiatorial games as entertainment were chiefly opposed by Christianity.

Do I attribute every single good thing the world directly to Christendom? No, but it would be hard to deny the influence of Christendom in the western world throughout the centuries.

The influence of Bahai on the other hand, attributing every single modern innovation to Ali Nuri’s influence, every single moral effort to him. As if he were the soul cause for the change in the world, that cannot be demonstrated however. I gave the example earlier, was it due to Ali Nuri’s profound 16 year old mind that the British decided to abolish Slavery? I think not.

Such a worldly approach to these things Ignatius!

Look beyond the worldly and see what really is underlying the remarkable sparks of creativity suddenly hitting humanity in the last century?

There have been more inventions in the last century than in the last 100 centuries. (That’s a fact btw, I geekily checked)

That’s a remarkable century, why? What happened to the human being since that precious night when “What hath God wrought” was transmitted across the world?

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Such a worldly approach to these things Ignatius!

Look beyond the worldly and see what really is underlying the remarkable sparks of creativity suddenly hitting humanity in the last century?

There have been more inventions in the last century than in the last 100 centuries. (That’s a fact btw, I geekily checked)

That’s a remarkable century, why? What happened to the human being since that precious night when “What hath God wrought” was transmitted across the world?

.

The initial claim was that all this technology can be traced to the influence of Ali Nuri and I do not see Bahai demonstrating this. I gave examples of how Christianity shaped and influenced the culture of the Roman Empire, how it was Christian abolitionists who spoke out against slavery and a Christian vision which has inspired some of the great works of literature.

So while I agree alot of this innovation is good, I do not agree it all came about because of the man Ali Nuri.

 

[Servant19]

Those first two points can be contested from a bahai point of view because as Christians if Bahai religion is correct we don’t believe in the same God. We believe the Holy Spirit and the Son to be God with the Father, not in the sense you apply the term “god” to them, but in the sense they are “the” “one” “God.” The Father Son and Holy spirit are not for us what tehy are for you and hence in worshipping the Son in the way we do we are actually violating the first commandment if the Bahai religion is true because we are worshipping that which is fundamentally not the One God. This is proven by the Bahai division between manifestation and God. You make a clear distinction and laugh at our idea of the incarnation as if God would take to himself flesh and dwell among us (servant at any rate mocks us for this belief, which is his right). You believe in a God who is seperate from the world, the only way he talks to us is through his manifestations who are mirrors of him, not him himself, right? Or is Ali Nuri the eternal transcendent Creator who is beyond the universe incarnated for us?

So we don’t actually agree on the first two points, hence our division is set up from the get go. We disagree on the most basic level. What unity is there then? A mere political unity? In that case it would be no different from a secular nation state, wherein there are groups of individuals divided according to their creeds. It’s not a unity that actually matters, it’s not a spiritual unity.

I will ask my question again, what do Bahai do with the individuals like myself who mark the clear division between Bahai and Christianity? Do you continue to say we are really united despite my protests? Do I have a choice as to whether or not I am actually united with you or is it the Bahai who determine exclusively who is unified and who is not?

Please Ignatius, please

Refrain from assigning actions to me that would make my heart weep!

I would never dream of mocking your belief in the Incarnation.

Please note the respect I have for Jesus (capital J), the Trinity (capital T) and the Incarnation (capital I)

I think that level of respect has flowed through all my posts to my Christian friends.

In the meantime we have remained constant in our respect while the respect of Christians for us has declined.

It went from Baha’u’llah (capital B)
To bahaullah (little b)
To Mira Husayn Ali Nuri (capitals)
To Ali Nuri (still capitals)
To ali nuri



I wonder if Jesus taught that sort of mockery and disrespect to be shown to a Person who has inspired millions to do Gods work?

.

 

[Servant19]

The initial claim was that all this technology can be traced to the influence of Ali Nuri and I do not see Bahai demonstrating this. I gave examples of how Christianity shaped and influenced the culture of the Roman Empire, how it was Christian abolitionists who spoke out against slavery and a Christian vision which has inspired some of the great works of literature.

So while I agree alot of this innovation is good, I do not agree it all came about because of the man Ali Nuri.

You need to ask yourself the question, what is the source of technological advancement?
What is it that inspires a new invention?

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[Techno2000]

What you believe has nothing to do with our unity. You are our fellow human beings of the same one human race created by God. We are related by the decree of God. Unity in diversity not unity in uniformity. Look at nature and the diversity yet it is unified.

As to whats correct and what’s not that’s between you and God and me and God.

What we believe in as far as Jesus or the trinity or God doesn’t change that we are all human beings created by one loving God. So, our common humanity already unites us and that we were all created by God unites us in God again. There is only case for unity nothing else.

But the Devil is in the details.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Please Ignatius, please

Refrain from assigning actions to me that would make my heart weep!

I would never dream of mocking your belief in the Incarnation.

Please note the respect I have for Jesus (capital J), the Trinity (capital T) and the Incarnation (capital I)

I think that level of respect has flowed through all my posts to my Christian friends.

In the meantime we have remained constant in our respect while the respect of Christians for us has declined.

It went from Baha’u’llah (capital B)
To bahaullah (little b)
To Mira Husayn Ali Nuri (capitals)
To Ali Nuri (still capitals)
To ali nuri



I wonder if Jesus taught that sort of mockery and disrespect to be shown to a Person who has inspired millions to do Gods work?

.

Implicit in your criticisms of the incarnation has been mockery. You might deny it but it is obvious to detect. The idea of the eternal God beyond all creation, utterly transcendent taking on a human body, another nature added to this divine and glorious nature which is utterly transcendent is repulsive to you. I don’t think this attitude of yours is wrong Servant, if I were a Muslim or a Bahai i would express the same sort of concern and rightly so.

Your respect or concern for Jesus is not my main concern. The main concern and argument I put forth was that under a Bahai worldview you cannot consider what Christians do in their worship as good. You haven’t addressed this and seem to conspicuously ignore it which leads me to believe I am right in pointing this out. I’ve made the case that the Bahai view necessitates a repudiation of much or if not all Christian worship (since we have in mind the Trinity, which while you claim to respect you utterly reject). Please tell me how I am mistaken in following through with your theology to that point. I think I have represented the Bahai belief in manifestations correctly.

As for calling Ali Nuri, Ali Nuri, I call him that because I do not consider him to be the “Glory of God.” He was a man and a false prophet to me. A wolf in sheep’s clothing who Jesus warned us against. This is my honest view and why appeal to Jesus as if Jesus was above insulting? Have you read how harshly Jesus reacted to the Pharisees? How he insulted them? How he fashioned a whip and chased out the merchants in the temple court? If Ali Nuri is a false Prophet then it is by no means disrespectful or against Christ to call him by his birth name.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You need to ask yourself the question, what is the source of technological advancement?
What is it that inspires a new invention?

.

It is the human mind fashioned in the image of God, inspired in part by the world around them and the constant seeking to better the current circumstances. I’ve never denied God’s part in creation in this way. Ali Nuri might have inspired many though when world attributes all of the modern movements for political union or technological innovation directly to Ali Nuri I question that idea. Like I would question the idea that all good morals came from the bible, since it’s just not true.

 

[Techno2000]

Can any Catholic share with us what the purpose of the body is in heaven?

Anyone?

.

Ok Servant19… let’s say there is no body, for argument sake ,then where do the spirits of the dead go after they die ?

 

[Servant19]

Ok Servant19… let’s say there is no body, for argument sake ,then where do the spirits of the dead go after they die ?

Firstly you mistake the human spirit with the human SOUL. The human soul is the pinnacle of the human entity. Do some of your own research for now

I’m out to walk with the family…

Be back shortly

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[Techno2000]

If we believe that the bad fruit of Ali Nuri was that he is misleading people away from church teaching, and that he was a tool of Satan and a wolf in sheep’s clothing… how could you prove us wrong ?

 

[Techno2000]

Firstly you mistake the human spirit with the human SOUL. The human soul is the pinnacle of the human entity. Do some of your own research for now

I’m out to walk with the family…

Be back shortly

.

Ok Servant 19… where does the soul go to after death ?

 

[JimmyDFG]

But Christianity is one religion after 2,000 years? If you all loved Christ you would have put aside your differences and remained one Faith.

Humanity wants unity and love and requires an example to follow but which sect of the thousands represents Christianity?

Christ and His disciples were one Christianity. So why split up over doctrines?

worldcitizen, Christianity IS one religion. Keep in mind John 15:5…
" I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing."

Think about what those “branches” will be worldcitizen