Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

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Techno2000 said:
Elijah didnt die so how could he be John the baptist ?
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Well how does Elijah come as John the Baptist?
Matt 17:10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
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11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
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What is your understanding of this?

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Servant19 said:
My time is short, so I will address a paragraph at a time.

Yes Jesus is unique. He is Monogenes. The two fold station of the Manifestation of God needs to be considered here, Ignatius. The station of pure abstraction and essential unity, and the station of distinction.

The focus of John when he states Mongenes is that of the distinction and the Baha’i Faith affirms that Jesus was greater than Moses in the station of distinction.

So that’s that one cleared up.

Now in regards to servant and Son, we need to look at the two-fold NATURE of the Manifestation of God. The Divine nature, and the human nature.

Both Moses and Jesus were servants in their human nature. You’ve already pointed out the passage where Moses is a servant, but please look at Matt 20:28 “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve…”
Luke 22:27 “I am among you as one who serves…”
Jesus, too, had a human nature, who was a servant of God.

On the other side we have the Divine Moses which is very scholarly looked at here. In fact the two-fold nature of Manifestations of God is well explained by the Jews:

jbq.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploads/303/303_chinitzM.pdf

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Station of pure abstraction and station of essential unity are alien to Christianity and the New testament. Why refer to them? They are something revealed to you which doesn’t deal with my essential and most critical point. That from the beginning, Christians, due to a lack of revelation, necessary revelation, we attributed to Christ things not belonging to Christ. Namely Divinity, which belongs to God alone. That of course is in the New testament. Throwing on a slob of Bahai theology on to the text does not do away with centuries of reading by the Church and what the text itself actually says.

When you say John had the same concept as you have, a distinction in station only I do not think you can make the argument from the Gospel authors. Again, only Jesus is presented in such a high manner. When another “manifestation” is spoken of in the Gospel it is when Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I am.” This is a meaningless statement in Bahai since Abraham always was, he is an eternal entity who never began to exist and never ceased to exist. Who is Jesus trying to fool here if Jesus was a crypto Bahai? He certainty fooled the Jews who threw stones at him and he certainty fooled the Christians who worshipped him.

As far as Jesus being a servant being a refutation of my view I don’t know how Jesus serving mankind is somehow a rebuff. Yes Jesus served, but did he ever make God angry at him? One could say on the cross (as many Roman Catholics and Protestants do) but that was not for his sins rather that was for ours. Moses while a servant of God, when first encountering God didn’t listen to God and the anger of God burned against him (Exodus 4:14). In fact, for such a mirror of God Moses basically tells God to go find another messenger, that’s why God got angry with him. Jesus was a perfect servant, not only to man but to God also. Suffering unjustly and paying a price he did not have to pay. There is a marked difference between the two. Moses was great but he was flawed.
 
Servant19 said:
Well how does Elijah come as John the Baptist?

What is your understanding of this?

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Let me put it in a way you might understand (fat chance :rolleyes:) John the Baptist came in the same role as an Old Testament prophet. He looked similar to Elijah and dress like him,and had the same zeal as him, but they are to different Saints and have different churches named after them.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Station of pure abstraction and station of essential unity are alien to Christianity and the New testament. Why refer to them? They are something revealed to you which doesn’t deal with my essential and most critical point. That from the beginning, Christians, due to a lack of revelation, necessary revelation, we attributed to Christ things not belonging to Christ. Namely Divinity, which belongs to God alone. That of course is in the New testament. Throwing on a slob of Bahai theology on to the text does not do away with centuries of reading by the Church and what the text itself actually says.

When you say John had the same concept as you have, a distinction in station only I do not think you can make the argument from the Gospel authors. Again, only Jesus is presented in such a high manner. When another “manifestation” is spoken of in the Gospel it is when Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I am.” This is a meaningless statement in Bahai since Abraham always was, he is an eternal entity who never began to exist and never ceased to exist. Who is Jesus trying to fool here if Jesus was a crypto Bahai? He certainty fooled the Jews who threw stones at him and he certainty fooled the Christians who worshipped him.

As far as Jesus being a servant being a refutation of my view I don’t know how Jesus serving mankind is somehow a rebuff. Yes Jesus served, but did he ever make God angry at him? One could say on the cross (as many Roman Catholics and Protestants do) but that was not for his sins rather that was for ours. Moses while a servant of God, when first encountering God didn’t listen to God and the anger of God burned against him (Exodus 4:14). In fact, for such a mirror of God Moses basically tells God to go find another messenger, that’s why God got angry with him. Jesus was a perfect servant, not only to man but to God also. Suffering unjustly and paying a price he did not have to pay. There is a marked difference between the two. Moses was great but he was flawed.
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Revelation has suggested that “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches”. That Spirit is Baha’u’llah.

This is one message to the Church - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

Thus to reconcile what we conceive as differences but in fact are not, we must listen.

“Say, O followers of the Son! 2 Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness”.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
Revelation has suggested that “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches”. That Spirit is Baha’u’llah.

This is one message to the Church - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

Thus to reconcile what we conceive as differences but in fact are not, we must listen.

“Say, O followers of the Son! 2 Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness”.

Regards Tony
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Tony this addresses nothing I have said.
 
Techno2000 said:
Let me put it in a way you might understand (fat chance :rolleyes:) John the Baptist came in the same role as an Old Testament prophet. He looked similar to Elijah and dress like him,and had the same zeal as him, but they are to different Saints and have different churches named after them.
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Ok, I do understand 🙂

What you just said above is why Baha’u’llah also has a Divine and a human nature 🙂

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Servant19 said:
I don’t smoke, and neither should you.

On that note, you shouldn’t drink alcohol either. It’s not good for your body or your soul, or for society for that matter 🙂

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Jesus celebrated a wedding with wine, I see no reason for us not to do likewise. Alcohol in moderation is a good thing.
 
Servant19 said:
I don’t smoke, and neither should you.

On that note, you shouldn’t drink alcohol either. It’s not good for your body or your soul, or for society for that matter 🙂

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Close… but no Grape Juice:rolleyes:
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Tony this addresses nothing I have said.
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It addresses % of what you said here “Throwing on a slob of Bahai theology on to the text does not do away with centuries of reading by the Church and what the text itself actually says”.

Thus I post it again
IgnatianPhilo said:
Originally Posted by TonyBS
Revelation has suggested that “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches”. That Spirit is Baha’u’llah.

This is one message to the Church - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

Thus to reconcile what we conceive as differences but in fact are not, we must listen.

“Say, O followers of the Son! 2 Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness”.
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Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
It addresses % of what you said here “Throwing on a slob of Bahai theology on to the text does not do away with centuries of reading by the Church and what the text itself actually says”.

Thus I post it again

Regards Tony
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I’ll repeat, what you said doesn’t respond to much of anything I have said. Your only contention is that there is new revelation, not what John means, who Moses is regarded as in the New testament or anything regarding the specific topic. Deal with these things specifically please instead of just saying “look, Ali Nuri came and revealed the truth.”
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I’ll repeat, what you said doesn’t respond to much of anything I have said. Your only contention is that there is new revelation, not what John means, who Moses is regarded as in the New testament or anything regarding the specific topic. Deal with these things specifically please instead of just saying “look, Ali Nuri came and revealed the truth.”
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Actually do not think I will have Much to say from now on. 😉 Maybe a comment here and there.

Regards Tony
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Jesus celebrated a wedding with wine, I see no reason for us not to do likewise. Alcohol in moderation is a good thing.
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That’s why we needed Islam because if you look at the death toll in the world caused by alcohol it’s enormous. The illnesses and deaths both accidental and murders caused by alcohol are criminal.
 
worldcitizen said:
That’s why we needed Islam because if you look at the death toll in the world caused by alcohol it’s enormous. The illnesses and deaths both accidental and murders caused by alcohol are criminal.
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burkas too 👍
 
Think Joey! A ‘new song’ means a new Gospel. The Bab brought a New Gospel and was also slain like Christ was.

The Bab was crucified… I thought Jesus wasn’t crucified.🤷
 
Techno2000 said:
Think Joey! A ‘new song’ means a new Gospel. The Bab brought a New Gospel and was also slain like Christ was.

The Bab was crucified… I thought Jesus wasn’t crucified.🤷
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Revelation 5:9 doesn’t say crucified… It says ‘slain’

“for thou wast slain”.

Oxford dictionary definition of slay is to kill or murder. Crucify means nailing to a cross. The verse says slain not crucified. Big difference. It was the Bab not Christ as Christ was not slain but crucified. The Bab was slain not Christ.

You got your Lambs and punishments mixed up now!!!
 
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