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Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist
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twopekinguys
Guest
OK, serious question on this.
This is a behavior that we see rather frequently on these threads from our lds friends.
When confronted with something they cannot/will not address, we get a dismissal of some sort.
Is this common with all mormons? Is it taught, on ingrained somehow?
Other than my cousin (who resigned), and her inactive mother, the only mormons I encounter face to face are the ones coming through RCIA. The ones in RCIA haven’t used it, they have freely admitted “I don’t know.”, when we discuss different issues.
It just seems that it is just kept handy as a standard response.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I know that they are taught to avoid anyone that is “anti-Mormon” which is basically anyone who does not subscribe to their beliefs. I also know that they are taught not to “argue” because that’s “contention” and “contention is from the devil”. I’ve heard this myself from Mormon friends and missionaries.
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twopekinguys
Guest
Judging from some of the threads I’ve read on here, it looks like some may have glossed over that chapter.
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Anna_Scott
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catholic-rcia,
I really appreciate your post. This is a very moving story with the right timing for this discussion. I think you are correct in recognizing how much a Mormon would lose, in leaving the LDS religion. Your charitable spirit puts me to shame, because I was less than charitable in my last response to Zerinus.
**Zerinus, **
I am sorry for the tone of my last post. I will say that these discussions are not about winning or losing a debate or an argument. These discussions are about God’s truth and drawer nearer to that truth. I think most of us would agree on this.
I’ve been posting on CAF since May of 2009. I came while still technically a member of the Baptist Church. As the months passed and the debates continued, I realized that if I could not support my views, I needed to at least consider the possibility that I was wrong.
In May of 2009, I believed The Lord’s Supper is celebrated as remembrance, with no graces imparted. That is a common Baptist belief. I’ve heard it my whole life. Over time, I began to realize Catholics, as well as Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans, had a very strong argument for the “Real Presence” in The Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Baptists don’t believe in Sacraments. The Southern Baptist Convention website, lists supporting Scriptures for the Lord’s Supper. John Chapter 6 is omitted.
Only one verse from The Gospel of John is cited:
Southern Baptist Convention website:
On Jan. 22, 2010, I finally started a Thread entitled, “Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord’s Supper/Eucharist?” There were 348 Posts. Only one Baptist posted on the Thread, and he did not address John Chapter 6. These are links to my last 2 posts on that Thread:
In the end, I had to acknowledge the “Real Presence” in the Eucharist and the fact that graces are, indeed, imparted. This issue was one of many reasons I left the Baptist Church.
This is the long way of saying people tend to avoid talking about things that challenge their current beliefs (myself included); especially when beliefs are largely due to a lifetime of indoctrination. When you add the gut wrenching trauma than ensues when leaving a Church, such as the LDS; it’s easier to proceed forward with blinders on.
I hope you will take some time to answer the issues raised in this Thread. At the “Last Supper,” Christ did ask the disciples to take the bread and wine in “remembrance” of Him. However, if you stop there; you are ignoring the crucifixion, resurrection, appearances as the risen Lord, and the Ascension–all of which are celebrated in the Divine Liturgy/Eucharist.
Anna
P.S. I look forward to your response to Post #125 and Post #126:
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zaffiroborant
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Yes, chocolate Teddy Grahams and cranberry jello, never ever ever any shredded carrots in any flavor of jello.
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SteveVH
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Anna, thanks for bringing us all back to reality here.
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Anna_Scott
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I think it was a chain reaction. Catholic-rcia’s kind response to Z. put me to shame. So, I’ll try to do better. I hope Z. hasn’t given up on this thread. He hasn’t had any help from his Mormon brethren. So, he is dealing with many posters disagreeing with his position; and no one to back him up.
So, Zerinus, I hope you will come back to the discussion. I promise to be more respectful in my posts to you.
Anna
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zerinus
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What did you want me to tell you? I said all that I needed to say in response to the posts that I have replied to; and the rest don’t deserve a reply.
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Anna_Scott
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Zerinus,
It seems the questions you are unable or unwilling to answer, are quickly placed in your “undeserving of a reply” pile. We are discussing the Lord’s Supper, are we not? Are questions, regarding the interpretation of the Words of our Lord, undeserving of a reply?
As I have asked in previous posts: How do you interpret, and act upon Christ’s command to “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood”? Christ did say that otherwise “you have no life in you.” In **John 6:52 **The Jews asked the same question: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So, isn’t understanding how to fulfill Christ’s command important and meaningful, not just in this discussion, but in our lives?
**John 5: ** 53"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"?
If, as you maintain, Christ’s Words were not meant to be interpreted literally; what do you think Christ meant when He said His Flesh is “food indeed” and His Blood is “drink indeed”?
John 6: 55 “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”
John Chapter 6 clearly states that more is accomplished in the Lord’s Supper, than “remembrance.” Graces are imparted during the Eucharist to include abiding in Christ and He in us; being raised up at the last day; and having eternal life. In your celebration of the Lord’s Supper, as “remembrance” only, are you rejecting these “graces” so clearly promised in John Chapter 6?
Do you disagree with our Lord, when he “instructed the disciples to drink of the ‘cup’ which is the blood of the covenant poured out for the forgiveness of sins?” Is there no forgiveness of sins in the Lord’s Supper?
Please consider Holy Scripture, once again.
Matthew Chapter 26:
27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."
John Chapter 6:
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
I hope you will consider answering these questions, and sharing your beliefs regarding the Sacrament of The Eucharist.
Anna
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zerinus
Guest
John Chapter 6:
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
I hope you will consider answering these questions, and sharing your beliefs regarding the Sacrament of The Eucharist.
Anna
This is a good example of a post that doesn’t deserve a reply!
All the questions you are asking have already been asked and answered in previous posts in this thread. What do you think I am, some kind of automatic answering machine?
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SirThomasMore
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translation: we have proved mormonism wrong and he has no honest or intelligent rebuttals.
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SteveVH
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Zerinus, I’m glad to see you’re still around. I believe that I have already apologized for those times I have acted less than charitable toward you. As it was never acknowledged I will assume you missed it and so offer it once again. But this is a two way street. If we thought the questions had been answered they would not continue to be asked. The problem that I see is that you answer questions from the Bible with verses from the BoM. And so we wonder, are Christ’s own words not sufficient? Can we not remain upon the common ground of the Bible seeing that we all believe it to be the word of God?This is a good example of a post that doesn’t deserve a reply!
I’m not answering for Anna, she will do a much better job than I. I just want you to know where I’m coming from.
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Anna_Scott
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(Emphasis is mine)
Well, yes. I kinda do. lol. Every time I dial your number; I get the same recorded message.
Anna
Zerinus,This is a good example of a post that doesn’t deserve a reply!
Well, yes. I kinda do. lol. Every time I dial your number; I get the same recorded message.
Anna
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Gabriel_of_12
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Upon reading these posts, I kept coming across the word Sacrament being used by Z and other posters in passing.
Has there been some type of understanding or agreement between Mormons and Catholics on the definition of what a bonified “sacrament” instituted by Jesus Christ is?
I would sure like to know how a Mormon defines a sacrament? Without this correct knowledge, I don’t think entering the Mysteries is going to help our Mormon friends?
A mormon site for a definition of a sacrament is not necessary unless a Mormon does not know what a sacrament is or does?
Peace be with you
Has there been some type of understanding or agreement between Mormons and Catholics on the definition of what a bonified “sacrament” instituted by Jesus Christ is?
I would sure like to know how a Mormon defines a sacrament? Without this correct knowledge, I don’t think entering the Mysteries is going to help our Mormon friends?
A mormon site for a definition of a sacrament is not necessary unless a Mormon does not know what a sacrament is or does?
Peace be with you
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
Mormons use the word “Sacrament” to refer to their version of the Eucharist. What Catholics call “sacraments”, Mormons call “ordinances”. What Catholics call the “Eucharist”, Mormons call “the Sacrament”.Upon reading these posts, I kept coming across the word Sacrament being used by Z and other posters in passing.
Has there been some type of understanding or agreement between Mormons and Catholics on the definition of what a bonified “sacrament” instituted by Jesus Christ is?
I would sure like to know how a Mormon defines a sacrament? Without this correct knowledge, I don’t think entering the Mysteries is going to help our Mormon friends?
A mormon site for a definition of a sacrament is not necessary unless a Mormon does not know what a sacrament is or does?
Peace be with you
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Gabriel_of_12
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How is there to be an understanding achieved of these great mysteries Jesus left us 2000 years ago in His Eucharist? when Mormons “refer” to a sacrament instituted by God himself as an ordinance?
I don’t see Mormons comparing in any way to a Catholic view of the Eucharist until the definition of a sacrament is clearly understood, so that a true comparison can be reached. Until then all we have from Mormons is a wind of doctrine blown in from men.
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ParkerD
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Anna,
I happened to notice that one of your later posts said no one else was coming around to participate with Zerinus, so here you go as responses to your questions:
- The words of the Savior in John 6 are not talking about the Eucharist, at all.
These passages are talking about the Father’s gift of the Son to the world, as He who came down to earth to give life unto the world. What does the Son ask His followers to do in John 6? “He that cometh to me”; “he that believeth on me”. Those are the words that symbolize and state what He is asking His followers to do. To come unto Him. To believe on Him.
He says in verse 50, “that a man may eat thereof, and not die.” We “eat thereof” by getting the newness of life He offers through coming unto Him and believing in Him. He was using the symbol of “manna” (with which the Jews were very familiar) to convey that just as the God of Israel gave physical manna to the Israelites, He and His life were given to the world as spiritual manna, with the promise of a newness of life and of life evermore.
Christ continues the symbolism in verses 51 and 53, by changing from the word “bread” to the word “flesh”–clearly a representation of His body which was going to be slain to bring new life to the world through His atoning sacrifice. We can’t gain the newness of life or life evermore as He promised to bring, without participating in partaking of the grace He offers by coming unto Him and believing on Him.
He makes that symbolism particularly clear by also bringing in the use of the word “blood” which is a clearly known symbol among the Jews of both the Passover and of the law of sacrifice. Of course He is not asking the Jews to literally “drink His blood” during His teaching in John 6. He is not offering them His blood to drink, but is telling them that His blood will be shed just as His body will be given “for the life of the world.” (v. 51) He is speaking in the present tense, so He is telling them to begin to believe in Him and to come unto Him so that they can begin having the newness of life promised through Him, and He does that through telling them in the present tense to “eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood”–by coming unto Him and believing on Him as their promised Messiah, the Anointed One, the Christ who was promised by the prophets.
- Coming unto Christ is “food indeed” just as Isaiah wrote in Isaiah 55:2-3 (“eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness”) Believing on Him is “drink indeed” as promised in Isaiah 55:1 and as reiterated by the Savior to the woman of Samaria as recorded in John 4.
- I disagree that there is a “grace of forgiveness imparted through the Lord’s Supper.” The text speaks of a “new testament” or a “new covenant”–which implies entering into a covenant relationship with Christ. True, that covenant relationship brings one to repentance and forgiveness of sins through Christ’s atoning grace, but Matthew 26:28 does not change all the Savior’s teachings wherein He spoke of the need for repentance, and the apostles clearly taught the need for repentance as the precursor to entering and keeping the covenant relationship with the Savior. It does not say anything about a “grace of forgiveness imparted through the Lord’s Supper”, but a “grace of forgiveness” imparted through His shedding of His blood which means His coming atoning sacrifice.
- 1 Corinthians 10 includes the following verses:
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The word “communion” in verse 16 is rendered from the Greek in transliteration to the word “sharing”. It is talking about sharing in the joint covenant: “For being many we are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread”. What is that “one bread”? It is Christ, and the action of coming unto Christ and gaining a renewal of life through Him and a covenant relationship with Him.
- I certainly agree that such a covenant relationship, especially a shared covenant relationship, and grace offered through the atonement of Christ, are more than “remembrance.”
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CatholicGuyNY
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Even though the LDS Topical Guide entry for “Sacrament” refers to John 6:54?
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ParkerD
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CatholicGuyNY,
The decision that was made to include John 6:54 within that particular set of scriptural references does not mean it is necessarily a matching scripture. It means that verse can have application when studying the topic.
You could draw a diagram of the relationships as follows:
At the bottom of the diagram, write the words “Bread of life–the atonement of Christ and doctrines of His new covenant gospel”, then circle those words. You could place John 6 alongside that circle, and also 1 Corinthians 10:4 showing that Christ is the “spiritual Rock” of which partakers of the blessings of the atonement of Christ should drink. His life, mission, atoning grace, and His love are the spiritual foundation for our lives.
Above that, you could write the words “symbols of accessing the blessings of the atonement of Christ”, then list some of those symbols:
"eat the Bread of life (eat His flesh);
drink the water of life (drink His blood);
buy wine and milk without money and without price; (Isaiah 55:1)
desire the sincere milk of the word, tasting that the Lord is gracious;
come unto the living stone–disallowed of men but chosen of God, and precious. (1 Peter 2:2-4)
Above that, you could write “symbols of making and keeping the covenants of the new covenant gospel”, then list some of those symbols:
baptism;
partaking the emblems of His body and blood;
shaking hands with each other as a greeting, in token of fellowship with each other through being “one” (unity). (Christ is at the center of that unified covenant.)
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