Comparing churches

[Bamm]

Of course you did not, yet the implication is there, if we go by its logical conclusion.

These traditions were followed by Christ as well; He is, as we see in Matthew, a Jew’s Jew, perfectly subscribing to the laws and traditions of His time as against the Pharisees, who tell people to keep them but they do not do it themselves.

Cut and paste from above? That won’t work, since I address another issue from that of the other poster.

The point of Jesus here can be observed properly–Jesus’ point isn’t traditions per se, but rather how people approach them, that is, that they observe them merely for the sake of oberving. Even today we see people who go to church for the sake of merely going to church, as if mere observance of keeping the Commandments is enough. Jesus made a point of this with the rich man who cannot part his way with his wealth. So His point isn’t about observing tradition; as noted, Jesus kept them as well. He would then be hypocritical Himself if He admonished His listeners yet He Himself do the same thing.

As pointed out, Jesus’ point in His woes was that the Pharisees heaped laws and traditions on people without them following it themselves–thus He called them as hypocrites. His point is that if they would give these laws, then they should be doing it themselves, not having people do it without them doing it. We can see these in the verses: Matthew 23:13, 23. One can see the gist of His point in Matthew 23:12–that the Pharisees exalt themselves without as much as praising God, nor help people in worshipping Him. I purposely deleted the earlier paragraph you made since you only say the same thing; the point of Jesus, as you can see, isn’t about against tradition, but against those who enforce them and yet do not follow it themselves. As Jesus said to His listeners, which we find in Matthew 23:2-4–“The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them” By that alone you can see what His point is–follow all they (the Pharisees) tell you, but do not follow their example, upon which He said His woes against them for being hypocritical in not doing what they themselves ask people to do…

And what exactly was that point you were making, since you did not explicitly pointed that out?

Milliardo:

You are wrong in your assumption. I am speaking only on the teachings of Jesus.

The traditions were not followed by Jesus or his disciples. If you read the passages it was their lack of following them that started the whole debate between Jesus and the Pharisees.

I pasted the passages because they are the answer to your insistence that Jesus followed their traditions when He clearly did not. Again, I say, read the passages.

And He said to them, “How ingeniously you get around the commandment of God in order to preserve your own tradition!”

The point was as I said very clearly. Both Catholics and Protestant churches have “gay” leaders and both have people that belong to them that get divorced. I hope that clears that up. It seems simple enough.

How’s that?

Bamm

 

[Milliardo]

The traditions were not followed by Jesus or his disciples. If you read the passages it was their lack of following them that started the whole debate between Jesus and the Pharisees.

If you read Matthew 23:2-4 carefully, you will not get this; Jesus would not admonish His listeners to head the Pharisees if He does not follow the same laws and traditions Himself. His difference with them is that He obeys these laws and traditions perfectly; the Pharisees do not (they heap them upon the people, yet do not lift a finger themselves).

And He said to them, “How ingeniously you get around the commandment of God in order to preserve your own tradition!”

Again, see the point above; it also helps to recall the incident when He and His Disciples observed a Pharisee and a beggar woman give tithes, and how He praised the beggar woman. Here we note that He did not condemn the beggar woman for doing that, as the law requires her to do. No, He praised her. Why? His point is clear–one must do these things in a humble way, thus His observation that the Pharisees do such things as in if in lip service, but their hearts are far from Him. Theirs are actions for the sake of getting praise, not because they do it out of obedience.

The point was as I said very clearly. Both Catholics and Protestant churches have “gay” leaders and both have people that belong to them that get divorced. I hope that clears that up. It seems simple enough.

And…so? I do not see the point, since I have made that point myself (in response to your point that Catholics have gay clergy and have divorce), to which I did observe that even Protestants have them. So, what is your point then in that remark?

 

[Bamm]

If you read Matthew 23:2-4 carefully, you will not get this; Jesus would not admonish His listeners to head the Pharisees if He does not follow the same laws and traditions Himself. His difference with them is that He obeys these laws and traditions perfectly; the Pharisees do not (they heap them upon the people, yet do not lift a finger themselves).

Again, see the point above; it also helps to recall the incident when He and His Disciples observed a Pharisee and a beggar woman give tithes, and how He praised the beggar woman. Here we note that He did not condemn the beggar woman for doing that, as the law requires her to do. No, He praised her. Why? His point is clear–one must do these things in a humble way, thus His observation that the Pharisees do such things as in if in lip service, but their hearts are far from Him. Theirs are actions for the sake of getting praise, not because they do it out of obedience.

And…so? I do not see the point, since I have made that point myself (in response to your point that Catholics have gay clergy and have divorce), to which I did observe that even Protestants have them. So, what is your point then in that remark?

Milliardo:

The “gay” thing, I was letting you know that we agreed. That’s all.

The passages you mentioned:
First of all to get the real picture you have to read the whole chapter to understand what was going on there. And to understand Jesus even better on the subject of the Pharisees, one must read several passages.

Secondly, Jesus was being facetious as He often was when He spoke about the Pharisees.

But don’t take my word. Please listen to the podcast below. It is a fine Roman Catholic priest, very knowledgable, very devote Roman Catholic.

He makes this whole concept quite clear in the RCIA podcast-“Why Be Good” part 2, from January 21, 2007. He is the head pastor at Our Lady of Good Counsel Roman Catholic parish in MI.

frjohnriccardo.libsyn.com/index.php?post_category=RCIA

Bamm

 

[Milliardo]

The passages you mentioned:
First of all to get the real picture you have to read the whole chapter to understand what was going on there. And to understand Jesus even better on the subject of the Pharisees, one must read several passages.

If we read other passages, we will net the same thing. For instance, when the Pharisees observed Him doing good on the Sabbath, did Jesus say to not observe the Sabbath? He did not; He still observed it. However, His point is simple: in observing the Sabbath, one must not forget one’s fellowman in the process. That is why we see that Jesus observed the law and traditions more perfectly than the Pharisees did. After all, He said to love God above all the things, and that the second is almost like that: to love one’s neighbors. In observing the law and traditions, one’s eyes must be focused on both God and man, in order to truly fulfill them. Love of God and of one’s fellowman is the whole heart of the law, which Paul would echo in Romans 13:10.

 

[Bamm]

If we read other passages, we will net the same thing. For instance, when the Pharisees observed Him doing good on the Sabbath, did Jesus say to not observe the Sabbath? He did not; He still observed it. However, His point is simple: in observing the Sabbath, one must not forget one’s fellowman in the process. That is why we see that Jesus observed the law and traditions more perfectly than the Pharisees did. After all, He said to love God above all the things, and that the second is almost like that: to love one’s neighbors. In observing the law and traditions, one’s eyes must be focused on both God and man, in order to truly fulfill them. Love of God and of one’s fellowman is the whole heart of the law, which Paul would echo in Romans 13:10.

Milliardo:

Let’s begin again.

Jesus did not break the commandments of God.

He did not follow the added traditions of man.

In the passages I mentioned Jesus and His diciples sat down and ate without cleansing their hands. That was an added man law, not a commandment from God.

In the passages about the Sabath, Jesus again points out that He and His diciples did not break the commandment of God, they just didn’t follow the added explanations and by laws added to the commandment by men. As Father John points out, they had over 600 added by laws to the commandments of God.

Jesus reminds them that the Sabath was made for man not man for the Sabath.

And, yes, the whole sum of the commandments of God is to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself.

The point Jesus was and still is making is that we need to focus on God’s/His commandments, not the added rules and “explanations” man makes up.

Bamm

 

[dolphinlove]

Bamm, if you wish to continue this debate, start another thread, the OP is asking a question for his daughters sake.
Please be kind and start a new one.
God bless
Dolphin

 

[Bamm]

Hi Folks,

My daughter is comparing her boyfreinds churh with the Catholic church and in her view ther isn’t much difference and changing faith’s wouldn’t be so bad.
What are the major differences and what would be the consequences be if she left the Catholic Church.

Why should she stay?

Michael

Michael asked for differences between churches.

Bamm

 

[Cat]

Oh, Mickey. Not good at all. I’m sorry.

Your daughter might be interested in knowing that most evangelical Protestants do NOT accept the 7th Day Adventist church as a true Christian church. I have several church comparison books and pamphlets that describe the SDAs as a CULT, although many will admit that the SDAs teach the basic salvation doctrine well enough that a person can get to heaven through the SDA church!

In the last decade or so, evangelical Protestants have lightened up their stance a little, mainly due to the Moores, a couple of reading specialists that Dr. James Dobson has used as guests on his radio program quite often. These people are home-school advocates, and so the evangelicals got to know them (through Dr. Dobson’s show and through their excellent books), and therefore, have been forced to stop calling SDA a cult, because we all know that Dr. Dobson would NEVER endorse a cult! (Dr. Dobson, if you don’t know who he is, could be a candidate for a Protestant “pope.” There is a saying among evangelical Protestants that if Dr. Dobson says it’s OK, it’s OK! Please don’t criticize him for this, though. He is probably the strongest pro-life advocate in Protestantism today and has faced a lot of criticism from liberal Protestants for his unwavering stand against abortion throughout the decades since Roe vs. Wade).

But in spite of Dobson’s “endorsement,” many evangelicals, even if they don’t consider the SDA church a cult, still do NOT consider the SDA a good “church” for true Christians.

They will say that much of the SDA teaching is poor interpretation of the Bible, and additions added by MEN! (I think it’s funny that the SDAs are accusing the Catholics of “adding to the teachings of Jesus!”)

Their teachings about the End Times are WAAAAAY different than traditional evangelical Protestant teaching. Also, the SDAs believe in “soul sleep,” which no other Protestant denomination accepts.

And the SDAs have a huge list of “rules” about eating and drinking, and in fact, most of the information about Ornish and CHIPs in our city is presented through the SDA church. It is a church that teaches strict abstinence from drinking alcohol, smoking, drugs, overeating, and eating junk food. We know SDAs who won’t even drink soda or sweets.

Interestingly, this “abstinence” or “moderation” teaching is one reason why a lot of evangelical and fundamentalist Christians get interested in this church. People like me, who were raised in good evangelical or fundamental churches that didn’t allow alcohol are shocked that the churches have now relaxed their stand on alcohol (and smoking). So when we read about the SDA abstinence teachings, we find this very appealing and comforting. Fortunately most of us know that just because an organization teaches alcohol abstinence does not mean that the organization is legitimately Christian (e.g., Islam teaches total abstinence from alcohol, too).

Here is a link from a research group called Spiritual Counterfeits Project:

apologeticsindex.org/s18.html

I will caution you that SCP is very Protestant and that they are not terribly thrilled about the Catholic Church! But at least this link will give you a feeling for what other PROTESTANTS think of SDAs. And I think it describes some of the differences between the SDAs and other Protestant churches with a fair degree of accuracy.

It is my opinion that if your daughter gets into the SDA Church, she will find herself very isolated from other Christians., and this makes it difficult to continue practicing true Christianity. Many fundamentalists will NOT associate with SDAs (many have disavowed Dr. Dobson and Focus on the Family because he endorses SDAs like the Moores). And many evangelicals will associate, but will always be looking for an opportunity to lead the SDA away from the SDA church back into a “true church.”

I have to admit, I’m one of those who is seeking to lead SDAs back to the “true Church!” (Catholicism, of course!) I have a SDA friend at work, and I am always conscious of trying to be a good witness for Jesus Christ mainly through my actions, not words. She is a sweet person, one of the nicest in my workplace.