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Mickey
Guest
Thank you.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
What is the legitimate connection from Abraham to Mohammed/Islam? Ishmael? Or is it just because Mohammed said he was a prophet of the same line as the Jewish prophets?
P
planten
Guest
**There should be one word for God. You want to call God “Trinity”. Well you can have it. I cannot understand it. You could have said YHWH, or JESUS or PARMATAMA or KHUDA or GOD.
But you want to call God “Trinity”. I say it is not suitable by any means. It won’t fit into things. You may believe in Trinity. But you should not name God as “Trinity”.
Before naming The God please consult the Jews too.**
P
planten
Guest
** Mickey, you had been teaching Trinity here. So why you want to leave that alone? See your own words below. If you were not interested in that discussion then why did you start that lecture?**
You can take your words back now if you like.
P
planten
Guest
**The connection is the same as God promised Abraham that He will bless Ishamel who was the first born of Abraham. Because Sarai had become hopeless. She could not bear any child for Abraham. So she sought the help of Hagar. Allah blessed Hagar with a son.
It was a barren house. With the arrival of Ishmael. there was hope and happiness in the house of Abraham. House belongs to the man, not to the woman. Ishmael belonged to Abraham, not to Sarai.
Abraham setteled Ishmael in Arabia ( Faran). Faran (Far an) wa squite far away from Palestine. Allah had promised to bless Ishamel too. It is all in the BibleOT. He had twelve children. The names of those children are written in the bibleOT.
Abraham used to visit Ishmael from time to time. When Abraham died, Ishmael, the eldest son was present with Issac to bury the father. The Arabs call themselves the children of Abraham. They were settled all over Arabia, vast area. They follow the everlasting covenant that GOD made with Abraham even today, and before Muhammad too.
If you want to discuss more, I am ready to be with you. I may inform you that there is no illegitimacy in Abraham or Sarai or Hagar or Ishmael or Issac. Thanks.**
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
WoW…this is quite a discussion.
I’d like to say that Catholics believe in ONE GOD. The trinity is described as 3 manefistations of the ONE GOD. Think of it as personalities if you must. These personalities have different “jobs”. God the Father is the Supreme Being personality…He is also Jesus, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit who gives strength. Again, Catholics believe in ONE GOD. Hopefully this brief and incomplete explanation will help you understand our thinking.
Another question that comes up is about “praying to saints”… we don’t pray to them in adoration…we ask that they intercede for us …since they are already at the side of God. We adore only God. Sometimes we ask the saints to help us be more like them so we can stop being sinful…some people see a certain saint as a model for a good life and try to emmulate their life to please God. As human beings we all look for models…the saints are our models.
Also, we don’t “pray to statues”…those statues are an aide in visualisation…to help us get centered in prayer. They help some people to keep their minds on prayer. They are just sculptures…works of art.
I hope this helps some of you understand Catholics a little better. Feel free to ask.
I’d like to say that Catholics believe in ONE GOD. The trinity is described as 3 manefistations of the ONE GOD. Think of it as personalities if you must. These personalities have different “jobs”. God the Father is the Supreme Being personality…He is also Jesus, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit who gives strength. Again, Catholics believe in ONE GOD. Hopefully this brief and incomplete explanation will help you understand our thinking.
Another question that comes up is about “praying to saints”… we don’t pray to them in adoration…we ask that they intercede for us …since they are already at the side of God. We adore only God. Sometimes we ask the saints to help us be more like them so we can stop being sinful…some people see a certain saint as a model for a good life and try to emmulate their life to please God. As human beings we all look for models…the saints are our models.
Also, we don’t “pray to statues”…those statues are an aide in visualisation…to help us get centered in prayer. They help some people to keep their minds on prayer. They are just sculptures…works of art.
I hope this helps some of you understand Catholics a little better. Feel free to ask.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
The words the Angel spoke about Ishmael to Hagar included this which has proved itself true:
God spoke through the Jews asthe blessing of such went through Isaac/Jacob…
Agreed Ishmaels 12 children are listed in the Bible OT, but they did not settle in Arabia, but Gilead which is in north east of Jerusalem.
This link shows the travels of Abraham which clearly shows he never travelled to Arabia and did not build the Ka’bah as Islamic tradition claims.
There is illigitimacy with Ishmael in the sense he was not give the rights of legitimate father (Abraham) to legitimate son (Isaac). The Quran does not lists Ishmael’s children. If not for the Bible OT the Quran would have no knowledge of it. It is not right to use the OT to support your claim when you reject the rest that tells they were sent away and Gods blessing was with Isaac.
When does the children of a slave receive such rights in Islam? Mohammed forced Zayd to divorce Zaynab so he could marry her- withdrawing traditional adoption rights of father to son. If Mohammed had male children by his slave women he did not give them any rights. Why do you give them to Ishmael?
Mohammed may indeed be of Ishmaels linage as his hand is against everyone and preached hostility toward his brothers, but no where is it identified Ishmael was a prophet or that God did anyting more than make his decendents numerous.
P
planten
Guest
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God gave blessings to Ishmael and his children through Abraham, not through Issac or Jacob. Can you show me where was the blessing for children of Ishmael through Issac? It is no where in the bibelot.
The blessing through Issac was for the children of Issac. The blessing through Ishmael was for the children of Ishmael.
Both brothers, Ishmael and Issac were very friendly. They did not have any hatred against each other like you are having here. In that way you are perverting the message of Abraham. Already you have broken the covenant that was made forever with Abraham.
As far aa I know, the Jews have not broken that covenant. The Muslims also have not broken that covenant. But the Catholics have broken it. So why the Catholics should be considered as friends of Abraham. I see that Catholics have nothing to do with Abraham or Issac or Jacob or Moses or Jesus. Jesus and all his disciples were observing the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham.
Even king David observed the covenant. When he got married to the daughter of the king (?) the fee for that marriage was about 100 foreskins of the Palestinian males. David the father of Jesus was himself circumcised and so was Jesus. They were not fools or disobedients.
P
planten
Guest
Re: Comparison of the Abrahamic religions
We Muslims do not pray to any one except the God. We praise the saints but we do not worship them. We do not ask any one who has passed away to pray for us or to intercede for us…
**Yes, it has helped much. Even though I am not convinced but I have not run away from the Catholic beliefs because the lecture from you was good. I welcome it and I do not want to disappoint you. Thanks. I will read it again (Trionity) to understand it more clearly. **
This a good peaceful description about Trinity.
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We Muslims do not pray to any one except the God. We praise the saints but we do not worship them. We do not ask any one who has passed away to pray for us or to intercede for us…
That is also not allowed in Islam. The pagans also say that they have idols or symbols only. They are not gods. But just representing The God. That is not right.
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**Yes, it has helped much. Even though I am not convinced but I have not run away from the Catholic beliefs because the lecture from you was good. I welcome it and I do not want to disappoint you. Thanks. I will read it again (Trionity) to understand it more clearly. **
H
Hyacinth_II
Guest
May Allah bless you for trying to understand others. I believe we all should try to do so.
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Genesis 17:19
Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
No, you are wrong regarding the blessing as I noted above, and you do not know if Isaac and Ishmael got along well. What evidence do you have for that? The OT does not give such rights to Ishmael and neither does the Quran or hadith. Where do you get yiour information? Why didn’t Mohammed give inheritance rights to his children by his slave women as you think Abraham did with Ishmael? Why did Mohammed make null adoption rights? **You **give them to Ishmael 4000 years ago when Abraham didn’t, but not today to your children of Islam?
Circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, and Jews did not practice it when the left Egypt before entering Israel 40 years later.
Why do many Islamists extend circumcision to women when it is not prescribed by either the OT or Quran, and wait until they (male and female) are older- between 10-15 yeras old and not on the 8th day after birth as prescribed by Jewish law?
Many Catholics/non-Catholic Christians still practice it but it isn’t neccessary.
Do you think the 100 male Philistines survived after David took them from them?
1 Samuel 18:25
Saul replied, "Say to David, ‘The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.’ " Saul’s plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines.
As far as being friends of Abraham; why would Jesus say this to the Jews who practiced circumcision and all the Mosaic law? He could say the exact same to Mohammed and those who follow Mohammed today:
H
Hyacinth_II
Guest
The Catholic Faith is not for everyone. Pray, you will be shown the truth that Allah intends for you to know… You will know it when you are at peace and love is in your heart.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
It is for everyone. That is why Christ sent the Apostles to the ends of the Earth to tell of the Good News.
allah of the Quran does not teach peace and love, but demands obedience to Mohammed.
P
planten
Guest
** Yes that was a special reminder to the seed of Abraham through Issac that they should never abondon the covenant. But they did and you did.**
** I know very well that both brothers were very friendly. There was no discard. Issac served Ishmael very faithfully as a younger brother. When sarai died, Abraham was with Ishmael. Abraham later went to Palestine to mourn for Sarai.
When Abraham died, Ishmael was present there with father. Ishmael and Issac together buried their father Abraham. I feel thatyou people do not read the OT.**
** It may be true. But I am sure they all did it very well later collectively and the Jews did not abondon circumcision. Even now they must be practicing it. I do not believe you**.
** It is a meningless diversion from topic**.
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** Another meaningless sentence. What use it is if circumcision is not done as a sacred duty. Every deed bears fruit only if it is done as a duty to please God. Un=necessary half hearted efforts are useless. I admire those Catholics who practice circucision. They must be doing it because of the eternal covenant. Those Catholics are brave and God fearing people.**
**That is immaterial. Surely it meant the killing of the Palestinians. But think of the foreskins. If circumcision was was not so important then why would the king order it.
You are unaware. The Jews were very much in favor of the circumcision and they hated the un-circumcised people. The Jews must be hating the uncircumcised people, i.e. the Catholics.**.
Meaningless vague sentence.
P
planten
Guest
**In my above post I forgot to discuss the blessings of Allah. The blessings of Allah are not limited. Catholics are all wrong in limiting the blessings of God. They feel thatif God blessed Ishmael then the blessings for Issac will be reduced.
The Catholics feel that if God blessed Ishmael then there will be no blessing left for Issac. it is all wrong thinking.
A glaring example of these things is to dis-inherit Ishmael by any means. Another great example is the case of the blessing that jacob snatched from Esau by telling a lie to his father Issac. How bad !! This is what comes out when people start interfering with the teachings of God. Issac wanted to bless Esau. It did not mean that he would not bless Jacob. Issac could ask God to bless Jacob too.
But the writers of the bibles had some ulterior design about the God’s blessing in their mind. They wante dthat God should only be capable of blessing only one son and that should be the eldest only. Not another son. And why only the son? Why not the daughters too?
To achieve the purpose, there was no limit to invent treachery about gettign the blessings of Allah. How could that blessing be justified? It was all invented to dis-inherit Ishmael eldest son (first born) of Abraham… There was no need to do that. The blessings of God are not limited by any means. We Muslims hope that the Jews and the christians will think over one day and come to the right side. They can have what they want. We Muslims do not want to snatch anything from them. They can have it all, the land, the wealth, the authority ( right to rule.)
But it should be balanced and justified. I know that many Muslims will not agree with me about giving everything to the Jews and the christians. But I am on my own and will not go back on what I have written.**
The Catholics feel that if God blessed Ishmael then there will be no blessing left for Issac. it is all wrong thinking.
A glaring example of these things is to dis-inherit Ishmael by any means. Another great example is the case of the blessing that jacob snatched from Esau by telling a lie to his father Issac. How bad !! This is what comes out when people start interfering with the teachings of God. Issac wanted to bless Esau. It did not mean that he would not bless Jacob. Issac could ask God to bless Jacob too.
But the writers of the bibles had some ulterior design about the God’s blessing in their mind. They wante dthat God should only be capable of blessing only one son and that should be the eldest only. Not another son. And why only the son? Why not the daughters too?
To achieve the purpose, there was no limit to invent treachery about gettign the blessings of Allah. How could that blessing be justified? It was all invented to dis-inherit Ishmael eldest son (first born) of Abraham… There was no need to do that. The blessings of God are not limited by any means. We Muslims hope that the Jews and the christians will think over one day and come to the right side. They can have what they want. We Muslims do not want to snatch anything from them. They can have it all, the land, the wealth, the authority ( right to rule.)
But it should be balanced and justified. I know that many Muslims will not agree with me about giving everything to the Jews and the christians. But I am on my own and will not go back on what I have written.**
P
planten
Guest
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Ishmael was sent away from Abrahams house and did not practice the faith of Abraham. The people of Arabia were not monothesist as history tells before Mohammed.
You don’t know what you are talking about and have no historical, Biblical or Quranic support for that statement, and it is false.
How are you sure?
Not meaningless. It is on topic as it regards comparing the religions of Abraham. Everything Islam does in in opposition to Abraham to include but not limited to circumsizing females. Where did that come from, why is it practiced?
Circumcision was practiced by some cultures before and after Abraham that never heard of the God of Abraham. There are many reasons for it beyond what God said in the Bible such as health reasons. My family is one of the many who do.
Saul told David to circumcise 100 Philistines so they would be in compliance with the covenant of Abraham- why? Hate comes too easy for Mohammedans.
No, it is on point. You disregard what is relevant and embrace that which is not.
M
Mickey
Guest
**Instead of beginning your Islamic diatribe against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, I suggest you study the doctrine first, and then start a thread regarding aspects that you do not understand. You will get very good answers from the people here.
Good day.** :tiphat:
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Verisimilitude
Guest
You should listen and try to understand then instead of defending Mohammed’s false view of Jesus. What is not fair about speaking the truth? The birthright of Abraham went to Isaac, not Ishmael.
Islam places Mohammed in the same breath as allah- meaning one can not be without the other.
Show me where in the Quran or hadith allah is kind and shows love to non-believers.
Show me where the alms mandated by allah to be collected are to be shared with non-believers. Tell me Islamic history that has done so.
The Quran says Mohammed and allah does mind if we obey Jesus:
Where is this love?
P
planten
Guest
**I did not attack or preach against your Trinity. I simply said that God cannot be named Trinity. If I try to read all about Trinity, it will be told to me that it is a mystery. So what use will be the study when the Caholics do not understand it themselves.
Have you tried to carry your Trinity to the Jews, i.e. Your forefathers, your leaders and the people of Jesus time? Please convince them about Trinity. They may teach you some good lesson. Then you may come back to us. Thanks.**
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