Compartmentalization due to hell

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EasternCelt

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The so-called “problem of Hell” has been in my mind for a good part of the last year when I really began to want to take the faith seriously. When considering the situation of every person on earth, salvation, described as loving union with God, seems extremely unlikely, though not technically impossible, so my considerations have not-so-great for my devotional life. I love the rosary and Our Lady’s intercession has really, tangibly helped me in following the commandments, but I feel as if I hold some bitterness toward God himself because he allows such a thing as eternal hell vs. an expanded purgatorial existence. I do not believe that the so-called “free will argument” for hell answers the problem at all adequately, indeed I think it presents more problems considering our current spiritual understanding of our condition; it essentially is allowing the equivalent of spiritual toddlers to choose their fate in a high stakes game of life or death which I hope to we all find unacceptable. I would not allow my 16 month old to play in traffic even if that was her will because I cherish her (and her mother) above anyone else.

Thus, I’ve, of necessity, gravitated toward a more penal, Augustinian-Thomistic understanding of retributive punishment for sin in hell for the necessity of the demonstration of the full attributes of God (his mercy toward the Just and his wrath toward the Wicked). Now, being God, He can obviously choose to do this if he likes because, well, he’s God after all, but then one finds oneself just seeking to follow God’s commandments out of fear instead of out of love. On top of this, reading St. Faustina’s Journal really seems to run contrary to this when Jesus says that He wants to show his Divine Mercy, but then always leaves the door open for retribution, which makes little sense to me. He even states once that He has all eternity to punish (yikes), but that He wants to show mercy now; it’s a frightening prospect and one that doesn’t encourage, but only feeds the mechanical obedience as if to a harsh earthly ruler.

So, with all of that being said, does anyone else feel like they have to compartmentalize this portion of theological speculation away in order to pursue religion in their lives? Also a quick disclaimer: I know often when people struggle with hell, people on this board go straight into concerns for mental health, so be aware that I am not suicidal, I do not have OCD, I enjoy life, sleep well, love my family, go to work, and generally look forward to each new day, so please spare me those posts.
 
Hypothetically, would you be OK with a hell of eternity, but say the person suffers during that time like you do now on an average day of your life (the high points of the day might be missing also)?
 
My own experience is not one of focusing on fear, but on love.
‘He who loves God with all his heart does not fear death or punishment or judgment or hell, because perfect love assures access to God.’ - The Imitation of Christ
 
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Even that is pretty cruel. I guess, to boil it down, my problem is that it all seems so contrived: we have “free will” until the day that we die then, arbitrarily, this disappears and we’re set in our ways for all eternity and are punished with the most excruciating physical, mental, and spiritual pain imaginable. It sounds more like a story to keep children or peasants in line (note: I’m not claiming superiority to children or peasants, just pointing out how it seems the narrative flows) than one about the reality of human dynamics.

I see two real viable options: universalism with a purgatorial hell or Jansenism/hyper-Augustinianism. I think, given that we know there is a hell, that the latter is probably closer to the truth. When I was Orthodox, post-mortem repentance was speculated by many bishops to be the answer to this problem, but, given the rigidity of the Catholic teaching on the strict borders between hell and purgatory, this isn’t an option for us.
 
That’s exactly what I’m talking about; to focus on that, I would have to compartmentalize and not think about the retributive side of God.
 
I trust in God’s mercy and go about my day.
I don’t really have brain space for all of these big words and labyrinthical ponderings about God. He’s God. He does stuff like help me with my chores, show me a pretty sunset, or chase demons away.
No compartmentalization needed.
St. Therese and St. Faustina showed us just how wrong Jansenism was. In case we needed more evidence than the Church repeatedly condemning it.
 
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So it doesn’t pique your interest that more than likely the majority of people who have ever lived will be in eternal misery?
 
EasternCelt said:
my problem is that it all seems so contrived: we have “free will” until the day that we die then, arbitrarily, this disappears and we’re set in our ways for all eternity and are punished with the most excruciating physical, mental, and spiritual pain imaginable.
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On the rare occasion when I think about hell, I do not focus on the description of the fire. I focus on my knowledge that God is just, and is not unfair. So the penalty will be fair, and not over the top of what is reasonable.

How I deal with eternity is unique to math people. The sum of an infinite series of finite punishments can indeed be finite. (Yeah, I know, geekdom). 🤓 So even though it goes on forever, it doesn’t have to be a large punishment. It might only add up to 2 units of punishment.

But perhaps what bothers you is finality. That we reach a state after which we do not change our minds. That we reach our chosen end. I long for my end, where I am not choosing or wayfaring anymore, but get to arrive at what I have chosen. To me, arriving at my chosen destination does not see arbitrary at all. That is why we choose, that is what we choose.

The only part that seems rather arbitrary is when. A man can see his moment of death as randomly happening. But for God that moment is not random. Trust in divine providence seems to remove any concern for me of that type of arbitrariness. I trust God is guiding every step and providing for every need, and he knows when the end is coming.
 
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The appeal to Providence is reasonable individually, but, given the “traditional” belief that very few will be saved, Providence would seem to be leading many souls to eternal ruin, hence why I keep coming back to a strict Augustinian interpretation, ie some are chosen to show God’s glory and some to show God’s justice. To my mind, that’s the only model where an eternal hell makes sense and it at least gives some dignity to the damned as necessary instruments in the hands of the Almighty.
 
No, because either that’s not the case as we have no way of knowing for sure, or else if lots of people are on the road to perdition it is my job to pray and do other things to try to save as many as possible. I take a very results-oriented view. Me sitting around wrestling with thought stuff doesn’t save souls, including my own. It’s rather unproductive IMHO.

I note that if Pug is a math person, I’m an engineer by training, so I focus more on practical applications. To the extent I think about Hell, my favorite thinker upon Hell was little Jacinta Marto, who often sighed over how many souls were headed there and said if they could just see Hell they would stop their sinful behavior and not go. Then she went back to praying and sacrificing to save souls.
 
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The problem of hell is that we are unable to understand what is sin.
We think that sin is just some arbitrary “rule” set by some powerful being and it is not fair that we have to abide by them.
The me me me principle. Also while we are alive we are subject to time and therefore change. Moreover when we are little we have a set of belief that can change a lot throughout the course of our life. When we die we are no longer subject to “change” hence we cannot undue what we did while we were alive. I believe what the Church teaches which is what Jesus taught His Disciples. Those who do go to hell chose so. The road leading to it is wide. If we make it to Heaven in no small part has to do with Grace, given freely by GOD and we “thanks be to GOD” chose to cooperate with.
Those who obstinate on the me part might be rudely “awaken” when they die. When they hear from Jesus say, “Depart from me I never knew you”
 
See, that gets back to the other part of the problem that the existence of Hell is willed by God. If God ultimately wants people who will love Him, coercion would not seem to be the appropriate modus operandi.
 
For the reasons listed above, I do not find the free will argument convincing. Given what you say about sin, I would challenge you to consider the high stakes game that we have all been born into. If choice were the main factor, then it would only seem to be fair if every person were given a choice to participate. As it is, everyone is born outside of their own will, but out of the will of their parents.
 
He’s not coercing anybody. People put themselves in Hell the same way people climb over the railing on cliffs to take a selfie and fall off the edge.

God said, “You want to go to Heaven? Keep the commandments (Moses’ 10 and Jesus’ 2).” People then get to choose whether to do as God says or risk Hell. Lots of them, including me for years, took the risk. If they’re lucky they manage to get back on the right side of the railing before disaster happens. But I never felt coerced in the least to be good or be bad.

One thing we hopefully learn in our spiritual growth is that the other side of the railing with the cliff drop gets boring and old really fast, and all the good stuff is on the safe side.
 
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EasternCelt said:
necessary instruments
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I don’t think humans in Hell is necessary for God. It was created for angels, not men.
EasternCelt said:
Providence would seem to be leading many souls to eternal ruin
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Even if only one human person were to end up in hell, that person could plausibly claim that God “led” them there by failing to lead them to heaven. The many souls part doesn’t seem to be part of what you are saying here.
 
Hell is not simply a natural consequence though, it’s a part of creation, for the devil and his angels, where humans will be sent for their transgressions. It is willed into existence for the sole purpose of punishment. It is a threat of torture, thus it is coercion unless that is not actually what hell is. The only reason I care about the commandments is because I don’t want to go to hell and that’s the way my Christianity has been since I was very young.
 
It may not be necessary true, but humans are going there. The only purpose of hell is punishment for sins. In the free will model, souls in Hell serve no purpose but God’s retribution; in the model I’m exploring, the souls in Hell are there to demonstrate one attribute of God: His justice.
 
Your main concern seems to be the fact we have to choose our eternal fate at the stage when we are unable to do so, however this is your assumption. As someone already pointed out: we die when God providentially let us to do so, thus we can suppose that we are as ready as we can be at that moment.

Also the assumption that the hell was created as kind of torture chamber is not certain, it may be as well that it is only place where beings which hate God and the creation are kept to stop them from harming the rest. God’s justice is then shown by using those means (hell) to protect the rest of the creation.
 
Your last paragraph is interesting; I’m going to think on that some more. Thanks!
 
That is an interesting observation you made… Haven’t you heard the expression “Only the good die young”?
In Spanish they have “Hierba mala nunca muere” which is the opposite really, meaning that bad people tend to live longer lives.
Is this perhaps a way GOD has to give those a greater chance to change their ways and perhaps escape hell if they were to die young and set in their sinful ways.
 
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