Compartmentalization due to hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter EasternCelt
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I wonder if Catholic theology still requires the pain of sense?
 
From what I understand of the Catechism, yes. However, I am technically Eastern Catholic and thus consult the Ukrainian “Christ - Our Pascha” catechism frequently and it does not. I don’t have the luxury of being close to an Eastern Catholic parish, so I am trying to become familiar with Latin Catholic theology.
 
That seems like a novel vision of Hell. I’m thinking here of Aquinas and hell being the demonstration of the justice of God or Chrysostom waxing on the sinners being cast into a swirling river of fire lit around the throne by God’s justice. What you wrote is much more “sane”, but I don’t think it’s the traditional story.
 
Thank you for your prayers. As to your misunderstanding: I think this way because I’m trying to make sense of all the data I’ve been presented with. In order to adopt your status, I would have to forget a lot of things about hell, and thus compartmentalize. Lol
 
Actually, I do not believe the Catechism mentions the pain of sense.

Also, I have the Christ Our Pascha and love it! I wish there were more Eastern Catholic resources like this.

However, when it comes to Latin/Greek theology, I think the early church was pretty clear East and West that there was some kind of everlasting fire in hell, except for maybe Origen. But I’m not sure if it’s strictly required.
 
Last edited:
From my recollection, the pain of sense is implied in the CCC but not elaborated upon. And yes, C-OP is a wonderful resource; I’m proud to be a member of the UGCC.
 
I have my own struggles with hell, and I think for me, I’m fine with an eternal hell — but it’s these two issues I struggle with, once they are added to eternal hell in general:

(1) The pain of sense. For example, fire or physical torment of the body. This seems like arbitrary punishment by God. There is a reason we think of this as “medieval.” Because it is. But God is merciful, much more than any human can be, and the idea that God’s justice somehow requires an eternal inflicted punishment seems contradictory.

(2) Reasoning why someone chooses hell. A common Catholic understanding is the Thomistic one that people sin because of a perceived good. No one directly wills evil for evil’s sake. Everyone is ordered to the good, and similarly, everyone acts for perceived happiness. But someone ends up in hell when they misjudge something to be their Ultimate Good.

However, if we combine (2) with the fact that every human is wired for God for their fulfillment, then it strongly indicates that any human who goes to hell does so out of ignorance, or some other factor that diminished their ability to clearly choose. So how could anyone truly deserve hell, or, put more lightly, how could anyone sanely choose it?
 
Last edited:
Hell absolutely is coercion: love Me or you’re going to hell. Imagine an earthly situation where the lack of reciprocated love ended in punishment; would that be coercive to you?
 
  1. Indeed, the pain of sense would only be kicking someone while they’re down. I’ve heard it suggested from Thomistic thinkers that the pain of sense is a mercy intended to distract from the pain of loss, which is just silly.
  2. Yes. Reading St. Maximus the Confessor on the gnomic will almost made me a universalist. It’s interesting reading if you ever get the time.
 
“the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A good understanding to all that do it: his praise continueth for ever and ever.” (Ps 111:10)

It seems to me, EasternCelt, you are dealing with ignorance and exaggerating the speculative (what something is) over the practical (how that thing is played out).

God gave all of his mercy to the drama of himself with evil. He tested the angels, and he also tests us. We cannot speculate why the angels were tested to full satisfaction. But we do know that the certain elect takes the place of the fallen angels when the mortal soul does sincere penance throughout life (prayer, fasting, almsgiving). Also, we know from Thomas Aquinas, that those who do not punish themselves in penance, will have to be punished by God. “But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.” (Heb 12:8)

Yes, we are children of God. But the dignity of man is so great, we are also soliders. Once confirmed and optimally well educated by the family: the soul has to learn to trust that goodness takes sacrifice and openness to truth. When this is practical, retribution not so much the sole action of God, but rather we give retribution to ourself in responsibity of our baptismal promises/vows by penance.
 
You’re not ultimately addressing the question which is how one lives with the reality of God sending people to hell. Also, to the bit about hell being a chosen punishment, it is false and leads to other problems that have to be explained.

Anyway, to the rest of your comment, again, this is a high-stakes, life-or-death game we’ve all been born into. If free will were so dominant as suggested, shouldn’t we have been consulted as to if we want to take part?
 
Due to the nature of any act, ultimate results, if possible: revealed in any mortal answers is too much of a demand on your part.

When Jesus was questioned about if the Jews were to pay taxes to the Romans, we know from St. Thomas Aquinas knowledge of the Fathers, that God answers the heart and not our words.

I do not understand what you mean by hell being a chosen punishment. The punishment I was speaking is prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

Finally, consultation takes place in the heart not by my words or anyone else’s. That is where faith takes action.

I would say that you need to be refused absolution next time you go to confession and let God work on your heart. Unless you repent sincerely before then.
 
Oh really? Lol

Tell me: what do I need to repent of? Taking the reality of hell and its implications seriously? Aren’t we told it’s an ascetic discipline to contemplate hell?
 
You lack charity, and need sacramental medicine to escape the lusts of the world and have a serious chance of achieving your motive of ascetic discipline.

When someone is refused absolution, the penitent leaves and struggles with conversion and is not abandoned by God.,
 
Charity… Charitas… love.

I think there is some benefit in confessing problems loving God.
 
It’s good that you can laugh about this. If one where to estimate to establish a practical result. One would have to be open to the understanding of what charity is via catechists, and there own heart would estimate
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top