Compromising with wife

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Pedro_1987

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My wife has some, shall I say stupid ideas on child raising. The worst of which is vaccination. She is convinced there is a risk of autism despite all the actual research from actual doctors that have showed evidence to the contrary. She’s upset that I want to vaccinate the kid so bad, but I don’t want my future kid to die from some disease like whooping cough just because some hippies say it causes autism. How do we settle this?
 
Personally, if it were me, this would not even be a discussion more than once. No way would I let my husbands paranoia put my kids’ health and very lives at risk. I’d straight out tell my husband that he has 24 hours to find legitimate, reputable, peer reviewed scientific proof that there is a link between vaccine and autism or I am taking the kids in for their vaccines with or without him. But that’s me.🤷

Oh, btw, I have actually seen a couple cases of whooping cough and mumps due to unvaccinated cousins. Not pretty. My uncle had to go live with grandma until the boys were well on the doctors advice because of the mumps risk to him as an adult male. (If you don’t know about adult males and mumps, google it…so glad to be a girl!) After watching those kids be so physically miserable and end up with some scars I’d never not vaccinate.
 
We didn’t vaccinate any child, ever. And it’s not just the risk of autism - do your research: many of the current vaccines were actually from aborted fetal tissue (granted, decades ago).

My daughter got whooping cough when she was four. Yes, she was ill for several days. She did not die, she has no lingering affects - it was no big deal.

And your child can definitely go to school without the vaccines, no matter what the school personnel tell you. You simply file the “religious exemption” card; the nurse is legally required to supply it (at least in my state).
 
And, I would never ever ever give any child of mine Guardasil (for cervical cancer/hpv). Ever.
 
Protecting your child’s health is very important to you. That’s why most parents choose immunization. Nothing protects babies better from 14 serious childhood diseases. Choose immunization. It’s the powerful defense that’s safe, proven, and effective.

Vaccines are safe and a proven choice.
 
It is not just that there is no connection between autism and vaccination. The other issue is that serious childhood diseases are passed around when the vaccination rate is not high enough, and the most vulnerable are those children too young to have received the vaccine. If you don’t vaccinate your child, *someone else’s child *could die in infancy as a result. Your child, too young to be vaccinated, could die in infancy as a result.

Let us face it: If no one were vaccinated and these diseases were running rampant, most of the anti-vaccine crowd would get the vaccination, because of course the risk of their child contracting a disease that could threaten their life or future health would outweigh the risks. Well, why is that not happening? Because other people are getting their children vaccinated, while those who sit on the sidelines hope to reap the reward while not taking on the hazard with everyone else.
 
I think that most of the claims of a link between vaccines and autism are for the MMR vaccine. So maybe the whooping cough vaccine would be acceptable to your wife, if the autism link is her main objection.

The morality and health effects of vaccines are issues that my wife and I have struggled with, and I don’t know if we have come to the right conclusions or not, so I am not going to advise you for or against particular vaccines, or for or against vaccines in general. But please let me share some insight from my own struggles with this issue, that might be helpful in how you address the issue with your wife:

What I found the most frustrating as we tried to figure out which side (pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine) was right, was that both sides tended simply to dismiss the other side’s arguments as stupid or irrelevant or not worth taking the time to respond to. I found very few voices on either side of the debate that were willing to take a calm, measured approach to the other side’s arguments, and at least to acknowledge that those on the other side shared the same motivation of wanting what is best for the children. I found very few voices that would acknowledge that the other side does have at least some valid concerns, even if they disagree with the other side’s conclusions.

I found this dismissive attitude from both sides to be a major obstacle to reaching an informed decision on this topic. And I think that comments like “just because some hippies say it causes autism” do not represent a helpful and productive attitude to bring to discussions with your wife.

When I was investigating this issue several years ago, I did find one book that at least tries to present a somewhat balanced approach to the issue, and which might be useful for you and your wife to read:

Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent’s Guide: How to Make Safe, Sensible Decisions about the Risks, Benefits, and Alternatives by Aviva Jill Romm

This book comes down a bit more on the anti-vaccine side, but not entirely, and it at least gives a respectful treatment to the pro-vaccine point of view. It also contains descriptions of the symptoms and risks associated with diseases like measles, mumps, whooping cough, tetanus, etc. I am not necessarily endorsing the author’s conclusions; I am just saying that this book might be one book, along with others, that you and your wife could read to help you make an informed decision.

Finally, you also may want to consider the fact that some vaccines are made with aborted fetal tissue, and whether or not you should ask your doctor to order alternate vaccine versions that do not use aborted fetal tissue. While I don’t necessarily agree with everything on this site (and I am sure that you won’t either, given their current headline about autism), here is the web site where I have found the best information on this issue:

cogforlife.org/

In particular, see this page, which gives a detailed list of which vaccines use aborted fetal tissue, and which ones do not:

cogforlife.org/vaccineListOrigFormat.pdf

They also have a response from the Vatican on this issue:

cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.pdf
 
MJJean said:
Personally, if it were me, this would not even be a discussion more than once. No way would I let my husbands paranoia put my kids’ health and very lives at risk. I’d straight out tell my husband that he has 24 hours to find legitimate, reputable, peer reviewed scientific proof that there is a link between vaccine and autism or I am taking the kids in for their vaccines with or without him. But that’s me.🤷
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That’s the problem with conspiracy theorists. They’ll simply see the lack of any solid evidence on their side as a sign that “big pharma” or “big government” or “big science” or big whatever is engaged in a conspiracy to keep us from the “truth.” So in a way, they get even more emboldened by the lack of evidence.
 
My husband and I made a deal when I was pregnant with our first that when we disagreed on something, whichever side had the greater potential risk would lose the disagreement.

Example: Husband wants to turn 2 year old’s carseat around so that toddler can see and fit better. I would prefer to keep him rear facing because of the reading that I have done about accident mortality rates of young children while rear v. front-facing. Since his side of the argument has the greater possible risk (i.e. death or paralysis in the event of a car accident) I win that one.

I think that you guys would do well to adopt a similar policy in your child rearing. More and more people are skipping vaccinations, which reduces herd immunity. Your child, as an unvaccinated child, is at a greater risk of many diseases, many of which can result in death. Would you rather have a dead child or a live child with autism (I disagree that vaccines have anything to do with autism, just going along with it for the sake of your wife and this discussion).

If that’s not enough to convince her, consider the children who for allergies or other immunodeficient reasons would like to be vaccinated but can’t, who you might be exposing to tragic diseases out of an unfounded fear. Are their lives worth it?
 
PaulGH said:
…
The morality and health effects of vaccines are issues that my wife and I have struggled with, and I don’t know if we have come to the right conclusions or not, so I am not going to advise you for or against particular vaccines, or for or against vaccines in general. …
What I found the most frustrating as we tried to figure out which side (pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine) was right, was that both sides tended simply to dismiss the other side’s arguments as stupid or irrelevant or not worth taking the time to respond to. I found very few voices on either side of the debate that were willing to take a calm, measured approach to the other side’s arguments, and at least to acknowledge that those on the other side shared the same motivation of wanting what is best for the children. I found very few voices that would acknowledge that the other side does have at least some valid concerns, even if they disagree with the other side’s conclusions.

I found this dismissive attitude from both sides to be a major obstacle to reaching an informed decision on this topic. And I think that comments like “just because some hippies say it causes autism” do not represent a helpful and productive attitude to bring to discussions with your wife.
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Well said.
One might say OP has the wrong forum. Compromising with wife seems his real issue.
Compromise may be elusive in cases where adversaries ideas are published as, say, “stupid.”
 
Ok I get the aborted fetal tissue argument, though I can’t say it bothers me too much (sucks, but they were aborted anyway, might as well do some good).

But there is no point in a “balanced” argument with autism or not when one side is just flat out wrong. It’s like the evolution debate. One side is clearly wrong, no matter how big in denial they are.
 
There is a slight compromise position, why not try the slower administration schedule of the European countries? Here’s Iceland’s schedule, you can click for other countries.

euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/iceland.html

When my brother and sister-in-law were going through this decision, she did a lot of research and her pediatrician supported the slower schedule. I thought the second table in this article showing the mandatory number of vaccines for each country to be really compelling. (The mortality and autism rates are just correlations, of course.)

smartvax.com/images/PDF/gr-autism_and_vaccines_world_special_report1.pdf
 
Pedro_1987 said:
Ok I get the aborted fetal tissue argument, though I can’t say it bothers me too much (sucks, but they were aborted anyway, might as well do some good).

But there is no point in a “balanced” argument with autism or not when one side is just flat out wrong. It’s like the evolution debate. One side is clearly wrong, no matter how big in denial they are.
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IIRC many of the vaccines using cell lines from aborted fetal tissue now have ethical alternatives. Unfortunately MMR does not (at least not available in the US), and at least in my area those are the diseases making a comeback. My pediatrician had no problem at all using the alternatives when they existed.

Even if you think your wife is absolutely wrong on this issue, keep in mind that this is her stance because she cares about your children. She does not see herself as being negligent. It can also be confusing because her sources may very well be right on other issues, so the default is to trust them on everything. Unfortunately, there ARE reasons to be distrustful of “big pharma” (hello, pushing of contraceptives as “women’s health”), and it doesn’t take much to make a jump from that to stuff that is really, truly “out there.”
 
I have no problem with parents refusing to vaccinate their children.

However, you then have an obligation to keep them out of the general population.

If you don’t vaccinate but allow your children to put others at risk, you are being (insert judgement word here).
 
Pedro_1987 said:
But there is no point in a “balanced” argument with autism or not when one side is just flat out wrong. It’s like the evolution debate. One side is clearly wrong, no matter how big in denial they are.
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Suggested Edit: “One side is clearly of the opinion the other side is wrong no matter how big in denial they are.”
OP, please welcome educating as your intent and not forcing, or “winning.” This is the surest sign that your intent is for your children’s health and not your ego. Now seems intent is Your View, You are Right, You are Better. All about you; really?

Maybe an approach of “What if I wasn’t right? What harm could come of it?” may help your compromising? Maybe you are correct for your family, maybe you are not. Sober research of the other side seems prudent at this juncture? No matter one’s passion?

Keeping mindful that jumping on a bandwagon is NEVER an informed educated event, nor supported by your Church. Homework sir. May you and your beloved wife come together on your views with His Grace and Mercy. Blessings to you
 
NFPWife said:
There is a slight compromise position, why not try the slower administration schedule of the European countries? Here’s Iceland’s schedule, you can click for other countries.

euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/iceland.html

When my brother and sister-in-law were going through this decision, she did a lot of research and her pediatrician supported the slower schedule. I thought the second table in this article showing the mandatory number of vaccines for each country to be really compelling. (The mortality and autism rates are just correlations, of course.)

smartvax.com/images/PDF/gr-autism_and_vaccines_world_special_report1.pdf
Click to expand...
I don’t know that there is really any good evidence to show any sort of increased benefit or decreased risk with these “Dr. Bob” style schedules.

There is an increased cost, however.
 
Here are some ideas

–meet with your children’s pediatrician together with your wife (there might be a slightly delayed schedule that your wife would be happy with–not ideal. but better than nothing)
–make sure your wife understands what the relative risks are of not vaccinating versus reactions and autism–get actual numbers
–read this with your wife en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

With regard to autism, here are a few thoughts:

–the skyrocketing rates have to do mostly with the fact that we understand autism much better than we used to, so we now understand that there’s more to autism than just the classic severe form. It’s now possible to ID kids that are just a little autistic who previously would have been thought of as just “quirky.”
–Also, a lot of serious conditions are being described as autism because that’s the magic word necessary for getting help–it may eventually turn out that what we currently call “autism” may actually be a number of quite distinct conditions.
–autism has a huge genetic component. Lots of times, when you have a child with a diagnosis, it’s easy to trace the line of inheritance of quirks back through the generations.
–paternal age can also be a factor in autism

nytimes.com/2012/08/23/health/fathers-age-is-linked-to-risk-of-autism-and-schizophrenia.html?_r=0

–gender is also a large factory–there are far more boys than girls on the autism spectrum.
–a little autism (or even a moderate amount) can be a wonderful thing

I would encourage your wife to read reputable sources on autism.

Best wishes!
 
My experience with vaccinations has been mixed. When my firstborn was just weeks old, she received 4 vaccinations all at one time. After the vaccinations, she changed from a bouncing baby girl to nearly catatonic for several days. The doctors dismissed our concerns but it is worrying to see a once-healthy kid become unresponsive.

My question, which was never satisfactorily answered, was how do you know which vaccination caused the side effects if multiple vaccinations are administered at the same time?

So we elected to slow the vaccination schedule to one at a time, with occasional exceptions of two at a time. That worked much better for us. The kids got their vaccines, but at a pace we were comfortable their little bodies could handle.

I do think parents need to think for themselves and not just accept everything a doctor says without question. And I am skeptical of the cumulative effects of so many vaccines.
 
Pedro_1987 said:
But there is no point in a “balanced” argument with autism or not when one side is just flat out wrong. It’s like the evolution debate. One side is clearly wrong, no matter how big in denial they are.
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Please understand that I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions on vaccines. But let me again share my perspective, as someone who has been on the fence on this issue (and to some extent I am still on the fence). When I researched this issue, I was willing to be convinced by one side or the other. But attitudes like the one that you have displayed above (which I saw often from both sides) actually tended to turn me off from whatever argument the person was making. Basically, I felt like, if all they can do is say “of course this is right,” and if they can’t present and refute the other side’s arguments in a respectful way, then maybe all they have is hot air, and maybe the other side is right after all.

Your thread title is “Compromising with wife,” but I don’t see a compromising attitude (or even a respectful attitude) coming from you, based on what you have written here. Even if you are sure that you are right, I think you will do better for your marriage if you take your wife’s concerns seriously and do not belittle them, as you talk through this issue with her.

Again, I think that the book I recommended may be helpful. Look at it this way: Because the author treats the arguments from both sides with respect, without belittling them, that book may allow your wife to hear pro-vaccine arguments in a way that will not turn her off as much as she is probably turned off by comments like what you wrote above. Perhaps then the book might at least bring her slightly closer to your position.
 
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