Compromising with wife

[St_Francis]

From Wikipedia, MMR Controversy.
The MMR vaccine controversy centered around the 1998 publication of a fraudulent research paper in the medical journal The Lancet that lent support to the subsequently discredited claim that colitis and autism spectrum disorders could be caused by the combined measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine.[1] The media has been heavily criticized for its naïve reporting and for lending undue credibility to the architect of the fraud, Andrew Wakefield.

All these claims turned out to be *completely fraudulent. *Maybe if you can show your wife some of this information, it will help her to see the issue more clearly. If you look, somewhere there is a pretty thorough article about it all.

 

[EasterJoy]

Ok I get the aborted fetal tissue argument, though I can’t say it bothers me too much (sucks, but they were aborted anyway, might as well do some good).

But there is no point in a “balanced” argument with autism or not when one side is just flat out wrong. It’s like the evolution debate. One side is clearly wrong, no matter how big in denial they are.

When you’re dealing with your spouse, though, it pays to keep the disagreement on ground that does not put your spouse on the defensive. IOW, instead of saying, “That is stupid, the research doesn’t say that,” it is better to say, “I can appreciate your concern, you are a good mom and of course I don’t want the kids to become autistic, either, but the same scientific community that raised the concern of a vaccine-autism connection has found that the evidence was faked. There is no connection. Some very conscientious parents have been mislead. That was nothing against them then, but this is now and we know better. When you know better, you have to do better.”

You know your relationship. My husband would have gotten our kids vaccinated over my objections, because he would not put their health at risk because I am stubborn. He’s in the medical field, though, so he would feel he is much better qualified to make an informed decision and that the risk of letting me have my way would be something he couldn’t tolerate in good conscience. He would not have done it behind my back, though. He’d explain why I was losing this one, and he’d be very upfront about getting the job done himself, if I wouldn’t do it.

That would be for vaccines needed for school. He’d not overrule me on vaccines or procedures that are less universally considered mandatory or “standard of care.”

 

[Book_Worm]

Have you discussed this with your pediatrician? Can you enlist his help in allaying your wife’s fears and concerns?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My wife has some, shall I say stupid ideas on child raising. The worst of which is vaccination. She is convinced there is a risk of autism despite all the actual research from actual doctors that have showed evidence to the contrary. She’s upset that I want to vaccinate the kid so bad, but I don’t want my future kid to die from some disease like whooping cough just because some hippies say it causes autism. How do we settle this?

Well the first step for settling this is to have some respect for your wife. The next step would be to present the logical facts for your case out there without emotion. And also realize that her opinion may be valid or it may not be but it should be handled like all parenting decisions with respect for the other parent. Your post about your wife lacks this respect.

There are those who do not vaccinate and they have valid reasons for doing so. Others do. We do. But honestly, I could go either way with it. Your child won’t die without them realistically speaking. What is the compromise you would offer that the title of the thread alludes to? Why are you two so far apart on this issue. Is it just this issue or is this about many many things. Could you elaborate a little please about your situation?

 

[Pedro_1987]

Suggested Edit: “One side is clearly of the opinion the other side is wrong no matter how big in denial they are.”
OP, please welcome educating as your intent and not forcing, or “winning.” This is the surest sign that your intent is for your children’s health and not your ego. Now seems intent is Your View, You are Right, You are Better. All about you; really?

Maybe an approach of “What if I wasn’t right? What harm could come of it?” may help your compromising? Maybe you are correct for your family, maybe you are not. Sober research of the other side seems prudent at this juncture? No matter one’s passion?

Keeping mindful that jumping on a bandwagon is NEVER an informed educated event, nor supported by your Church. Homework sir. May you and your beloved wife come together on your views with His Grace and Mercy. Blessings to you

But it’s not a subjective thing. The anti-vaccination group has zero evidence to back up their case. The pro-vaccination group has evidence that they’re wrong. Simple as that, one side is wrong and one side is right. It’s not a bandwagon, it’s scientific fact.

Saying stuff like opinions is bunk. It’s not an opinion. It’s scientific fact. They’re just wrong and that’s all there is to it. This is as silly as saying we shouldn’t say the sky is blue because some people say it’s red. I can go outside and see it’s blue. No ambiguity, it’s blue. No need to concede to people who say it’s red, because it’s not. We don’t need balanced arguments to support each side. It’s blue.

Now, if it was something like what color the baby room should be then fine. I’d have an opinion and she would have hers and it’d be open for discussion. Or what kind of diaper. But this isn’t like that. It’s scientific fact that vaccinations do not cause autism.

The whole idea that nobody is wrong and everything is opinions is just stupid.

 

[EasterJoy]

But it’s not a subjective thing. The anti-vaccination group has zero evidence to back up their case. The pro-vaccination group has evidence that they’re wrong. Simple as that, one side is wrong and one side is right. It’s not a bandwagon, it’s scientific fact.

Saying stuff like opinions is bunk. It’s not an opinion. It’s scientific fact. They’re just wrong and that’s all there is to it. This is as silly as saying we shouldn’t say the sky is blue because some people say it’s red. I can go outside and see it’s blue. No ambiguity, it’s blue. No need to concede to people who say it’s red, because it’s not. We don’t need balanced arguments to support each side. It’s blue.

Now, if it was something like what color the baby room should be then fine. I’d have an opinion and she would have hers and it’d be open for discussion. Or what kind of diaper. But this isn’t like that. It’s scientific fact that vaccinations do not cause autism.

The whole idea that nobody is wrong and everything is opinions is just stupid.

If you’re going to get anywhere with your wife (or anyone else), you’re going to need to give up your indiscriminate use of the word “stupid.”

But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘raja,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna. Matt. 5:22

By all means, I don’t have a problem with treating this as if your child had a serious condition that your wife refused to have treated. Stick to your guns. Do show unfailing respect for the mother of your children, however. This is how you teach your children to keep the 4th Commandment, not to mention the Golden Rule, and those are even more important than vaccinations against physical diseases. One is about the life that is fleeting; the other is about eternal life.

 

[PaulGH]

But it’s not a subjective thing. The anti-vaccination group has zero evidence to back up their case. The pro-vaccination group has evidence that they’re wrong. Simple as that, one side is wrong and one side is right. It’s not a bandwagon, it’s scientific fact.

Saying stuff like opinions is bunk. It’s not an opinion. It’s scientific fact. They’re just wrong and that’s all there is to it. This is as silly as saying we shouldn’t say the sky is blue because some people say it’s red. I can go outside and see it’s blue. No ambiguity, it’s blue. No need to concede to people who say it’s red, because it’s not. We don’t need balanced arguments to support each side. It’s blue.

Now, if it was something like what color the baby room should be then fine. I’d have an opinion and she would have hers and it’d be open for discussion. Or what kind of diaper. But this isn’t like that. It’s scientific fact that vaccinations do not cause autism.

The whole idea that nobody is wrong and everything is opinions is just stupid.

Based on everything you have written here, it sounds like being right and belittling people who are wrong are more important to you than treating people with respect. If that is the attitude that you take into conversations with your wife, I don’t think you are likely to resolve anything to anyone’s satisfaction – even if the facts are 100% on your side.

 

[Xantippe]

Could you appeal to your wife’s civic spirit?

There are people who are medically fragile or have some individual reason why they can’t tolerate the vaccine (for instance, they’re simply too tiny). If you vaccinate your children, you protect those children and adults from harm.

Here’s a graphic showing the explosion of previously minor preventable diseases over the past few years:

npr.org/blogs/health/2014/01/25/265750719/how-vaccine-fears-fueled-the-resurgence-of-preventable-diseases

Particularly in developing countries, those circles represent the deaths of innocent children.

I had whooping cough as a child old enough to remember it now. It was terrible–the coughing was so cartoonishly violent that the adults in the family initially thought that we kids were faking. I had chicken pox as a teen (before there was a vaccine). It was terrible. My husband recently had chicken pox (around 40). It was terrible. All of these illnesses are far worse than the reactions that kids normally have to the vaccines.

Come to think of it, talk to your doctor and ask if you and your wife need a booster shot for whooping cough. It wears off with time, unfortunately.

 

[Kelfa28]

Lots of good points all around.

I can’t believe so many people refuse to vaccinate their children. That is their choice…but I don’t want those kids near mine.

The more children who are vaccinated…the safer they are for everyone else…especially children who cannot receive vaccinations.

I can’t imagine a child not being vaccinated and then contracting a disease that may not be fatal to him/her but is certainly extremely dangerous and fatal to his/her baby sibling who hasn’t been vaccinated just yet. Or giving the disease to a friend’s baby sibling during a playdate.

I can’t ignore the fact that their are many illegal children coming into this country who aren’t vaccinated against anything and are carriers of a long list disease. These children are being put in public school and the chances of an outbreak occurring are very high.

That was a total non-negotiable with me. My husband and my MIL started to argue with me about the possibility about autism and the so-called “dangers” of vaccination. I argued back. Told them flat-out they were wrong and there was no evidence that proved their arguments and would NEVER negotiate the health and welfare of my children.

They have both been fully vaccinated. I would never negotiate on something that concerns my children’s health.

 

[Xantippe]

Lots of good points all around.

I can’t believe so many people refuse to vaccinate their children. That is their choice…but I don’t want those kids near mine.

The more children who are vaccinated…the safer they are for everyone else…especially children who cannot receive vaccinations.

I can’t imagine a child not being vaccinated and then contracting a disease that may not be fatal to him/her but is certainly extremely dangerous and fatal to his/her baby sibling who hasn’t been vaccinated just yet. Or giving the disease to a friend’s baby sibling during a playdate.

I can’t ignore the fact that their are many illegal children coming into this country who aren’t vaccinated against anything and are carriers of a long list disease. These children are being put in public school and the chances of an outbreak occurring are very high.

Affluent crunchies are even more of a menace:

chicagomag.com/city-life/March-2014/Why-Is-Vaccine-Refusal-More-Prevalent-Among-the-Affluent/

"Social networks (actual ones) seem to be incredibly important in forming opposition to vaccines, either in whole or in part: “in this study, parents who didn’t follow CDC guidelines were more likely to have extensive ‘source networks’ that included books, blogs, websites, and magazine articles to which they turned for vaccine-realted information.”

“Resisting vaccination isn’t a matter of laziness; it’s actually time-consuming and expensive.”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But it’s not a subjective thing. The anti-vaccination group has zero evidence to back up their case. The pro-vaccination group has evidence that they’re wrong. Simple as that, one side is wrong and one side is right. It’s not a bandwagon, it’s scientific fact.

Saying stuff like opinions is bunk. It’s not an opinion. It’s scientific fact. They’re just wrong and that’s all there is to it. This is as silly as saying we shouldn’t say the sky is blue because some people say it’s red. I can go outside and see it’s blue. No ambiguity, it’s blue. No need to concede to people who say it’s red, because it’s not. We don’t need balanced arguments to support each side. It’s blue.

Now, if it was something like what color the baby room should be then fine. I’d have an opinion and she would have hers and it’d be open for discussion. Or what kind of diaper. But this isn’t like that. It’s scientific fact that vaccinations do not cause autism.

The whole idea that nobody is wrong and everything is opinions is just stupid.

Well, I’ll tell you this Pedro. If you are using the word scientific and fact in there then you may very well be the irrational one. Current medicine (using science) does not link autism and vaccinations. But if you wish to label that as fact you misunderstand the very nature of medicine and science. There are many things that have had no link or been shown “harmless” that have been reversed. So hanging your hat on science here is a risk. Especially because you may not understand the science. Even science will only go so far as to say they cannot find a link. Not that it is FACT that there is no concern.

The sky is indeed red. During sunsets, through smoke. There is even an old sailor’s rhyme that says “red sky in morning sailors take warning, red sky at night, sailors delight.” So you can see that while under clear conditions the light from our sun reflects off water particles and refracts the color blue out of the spectrum, it does not necessarily mean that it is blue, or that someone is “stupid” for saying it is red. It would suit you well to find a better analogy.

I don’t know your wife. But I do know me. And IF my wife thought I was “stupid” for disagreeing on something like this it would make me less likely to ever see it her way.

But we are a house of science. It is how we pay the bills. So, in our house, logic dictates the majority of the time. And there are very very logical scientific things that my wife and I see differently. We also know that while the conspiracy theorists tend to be out there that the government and corporations are just as susceptible to misleading the public as anyone. Scientifically there was no link between the testing in the Nevada Idaho deserts and the problems of “downwinders” Until there was.

The idea that you look down on someone or even a group of people for having a different concern about this issue is telling of your ego getting in the way of your “facts”

 

[LongingSoul]

My experience with vaccinations has been mixed. When my firstborn was just weeks old, she received 4 vaccinations all at one time. After the vaccinations, she changed from a bouncing baby girl to nearly catatonic for several days. The doctors dismissed our concerns but it is worrying to see a once-healthy kid become unresponsive.

My question, which was never satisfactorily answered, was how do you know which vaccination caused the side effects if multiple vaccinations are administered at the same time?

So we elected to slow the vaccination schedule to one at a time, with occasional exceptions of two at a time. That worked much better for us. The kids got their vaccines, but at a pace we were comfortable their little bodies could handle.

I do think parents need to think for themselves and not just accept everything a doctor says without question. And I am skeptical of the cumulative effects of so many vaccines.

I had a similar experience with my first and my third children. The reaction they had was a very frightening experience. I know they say there is no link and considering these are experts I have to accept it, but they were both subsequently diagnosed on the autistic spectrum. This was 23 years back and when my son was diagnosed with Aspergers in Gr. 1… I’d never even heard of it before.

In retrospect, I would definitely have delayed vaccinations until the children were more developed and able to handle the vaccinations without extreme fever and other reactions.

To the OP, could you possibly suggest to your wife that you delay vaccinations for 18 months to 2 years? I’m a real advocate for a mothers gut instinct and even though there is no accepted link between the vaccinations and autism, there are other possible reactions that just can’t be good for a newborn baby. My brother and his wife hadn’t vaccinated on principle but then when my sister in law fell ill with sever depression and was hospitalised for a few weeks, the hospital would not allow the children to visit her (there was a whooping cough epidemic at that time where they live)… they relented and had all three of the children vaccinated. All three sailed through the experience without a single problem.

 

[on_the_hill]

A friend of mine is a family doctor. He said his practice will not accept patients who are not/will not vaccinate because they pose a risk to his other patients, particularly those with weak immune systems.

 

[fencersmother]

To those who didn’t want their kids near mine because I chose not to vaccinate, can you imagine how much less I wanted your kids, with live polio vaccine in them, near my children?

I find it shocking that Pedro said, Sucks that the baby was aborted so let’s just put its cells to good use. Sorry your baby was killed so my kid wouldn’t get the measles.

FWIW: I homeschooled my children so they wouldn’t bring their mean germs in contact with your children who also carry germs. Including the germs of thought like Pedro’s.

 

[on_the_hill]

Including the germs of thought like Pedro’s.

Ouch. uch:

 

[NFPWife]

I had a similar experience with my first and my third children. The reaction they had was a very frightening experience. I know they say there is no link and considering these are experts I have to accept it, but they were both subsequently diagnosed on the autistic spectrum. This was 23 years back and when my son was diagnosed with Aspergers in Gr. 1… I’d never even heard of it before.

In retrospect, I would definitely have delayed vaccinations until the children were more developed and able to handle the vaccinations without extreme fever and other reactions.

To the OP, could you possibly suggest to your wife that you delay vaccinations for 18 months to 2 years? I’m a real advocate for a mothers gut instinct and even though there is no accepted link between the vaccinations and autism, there are other possible reactions that just can’t be good for a newborn baby. My brother and his wife hadn’t vaccinated on principle but then when my sister in law fell ill with sever depression and was hospitalised for a few weeks, the hospital would not allow the children to visit her (there was a whooping cough epidemic at that time where they live)… they relented and had all three of the children vaccinated. All three sailed through the experience without a single problem.

I’ve heard experiences like yours and Groo’s from parents and a couple pediatricians. Not necessarily that the child developed autism, but that the child had a strong reaction to an American immunization schedule. The American schedule suggest 36 vaccines. The next highest country is 28. The average (with our 36 skewing the mean) is 18. We’re double the average.

I’m pro-vaccination and think relying on herd immunity is dangerous. For everyone. One of my co-workers traveled to a part of the country that is pretty anti-vax and she got whopping cough. We (co-workers) all doubled down on our vaccines. I tried to pay for a shingles vaccine at a Duane Reed pharmacy and got carded.

To the content of this thread, I really think the compromise is a slower schedule. It might be pricier in terms of co-pays and is a bigger time commitment, but those seem like reasonable prices to pay.

To the broader process, your contempt for your wife is problematic. You seem to think you’re her intellectual superior and disregard her perspective. That’s not healthy for a marriage. Many have suggested strategies for presenting your side to your wife. I’ll suggest that you consider working on your general communication skills with your wife and also that you join www.e5men.org.

 

[Et_Cetera]

To those who didn’t want their kids near mine because I chose not to vaccinate, can you imagine how much less I wanted your kids, with live polio vaccine in them, near my children?

I find it shocking that Pedro said, Sucks that the baby was aborted so let’s just put its cells to good use. Sorry your baby was killed so my kid wouldn’t get the measles.

FWIW: I homeschooled my children so they wouldn’t bring their mean germs in contact with your children who also carry germs. Including the germs of thought like Pedro’s.

Damn, I feel sorry for your kids. So you’re going to literally quarantine them in your house to keep them away from disease (which, you know, isn’t a guarantee of anything)? What exactly is your reason for not wanting your children to be protected against potentially fatal disease? Are you really banking on your kids never coming into contact with other children? I can only imagine how well that set up will prepare them for the real world.

Also, Pedro, as a doc-in-training, I’m really glad you’re standing up to your wife on this one. I’m sorry you have to deal with her having these…umm “beliefs.” There is absolutely no concrete scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism. The one published paper was debunked and proven to be filled with lies that were intended to benefit a company. By not vaccinating, you run the risk of your children and the children of others dying due to people reading some junk “science” on Facebook and thinking that they know more than scientists.

People believe a lot of dumb stuff. Hell, I see stuff on here that makes my head spin, but I try to talk it through with people and show respect of different views. However, when differing views pose a literally fatal threat to society, I have to get angry. Pedro, do what you need to do to get your kids medical care.

Edit: I don’t think Pedro is looking down on his wife so much as he is just kind of flabbergasted that she believes this stuff. I’m wondering if he saw signs of this prior to their marriage or if she holds these kinds of beliefs in other arenas too. But I do agree that she shouldn’t be talked down to, but rather talked to.

 

[savedbygrace71]

When my oldest turned a year old, we were living in Germany. Our US pediatrician had given me the list of vaccines that would be due and I brought it to the doctor there. He looked at the list and said “we don’t do MMR and chicken pox together here.” It’s too much for their little bodies to handle. Even if autism is completely removed from the conversation, why can’t the conversation continue? Why are we called crunchy menaces because we would like to talk about the medications that are being given to our children?

When my second child was born a light went on. I don’t have Hep B. I’m a health care worker and I know I don’t have it. Why on earth should my one day old infant get immunized for a blood born pathogen? He’s getting it now, before kindergarten. My kid, my choice.

 

[whatsmyname]

You might try asking your wife where she got her “stupid” ideas and what has convinced her that vaccination is dangerous and/or ineffective. Is she opposed to all vaccines or is she open to getting one vaccine at a time or spreading the vaccines out over time (Japan, for example, recommends 6 vaccines in the first year of life and 3 in the second while the U.S. recommends up to 15 in the first year and 7 in the second year).

You also might look into why the federal government denies any link between vaccines and autism while routinely paying out money for proven vaccine injury claims through their no-fault Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. And why did an Italian court rule that the MMR vaccine is linked to autism and related disorders? They must have had some reason beyond stupid conspiracy theories.

You and your wife may not come to the same conclusions, but perhaps you can read some of the same studies and get the same information about vaccines. Once you’re working with the same information instead of calling each other stupid, perhaps you can compromise on a reduced vaccine schedule.

And if you’re worried about your child dying from whooping cough, I’d be more concerned once your child is vaccinated. In California and Texas, more than 80% of children who have had whooping cough in recent outbreaks were vaccinated children.

 

[bitterhope]

Well, I do vaccinate my kids on time and will continue to do so but I completely understand why other parents don’t and it does not offend me or bother me one bit. Their kids are welcome to be around my kids. After all, if the vaccines really do work then the unvaccinated kids shouldn’t pose any risk to mine anyway. Think about it, the vaccine is supposed to create immunity to the germs the unvaccinated are at risk of catching, and the immunity my kids have would prevent them from spreading it to mine right? Or is the immunity just hypothetical and my kids are going through these shots for no reason whatsoever, and it’s just a scam for drs and drug companies to make money off of us? We go to military clinic and at least in the Army these clinics actually give more shots than civilian clinics. Mine follow the Army schedule and I’m ok with that. But I watch them like hawks and two of mine have medical exemptions to the MMR due to violent reactions they had. One was sick enough the dr thought he may not make it (he contracted measles which isn’t supposed to happen and ended up with encephalitis). He went from an advanced baby–talking at 11 months, walking at 7 months, dressing himself at 14 months, etc.–to comatose at 15 months old. He didn’t walk again until he was 22 months old and didn’t speak until 4 years old and only after tons of physical, occupational and speech therapy. He is slightly developmentally delayed and has multiple learning disabilities. He will never receive his follow up MMR because of dr order. The other MMR reaction was thankfully much less severe but still was given a medical exemption for that child. My youngest reacted to her Dtap. She was 4 months old and went into seizures later the same day she had her shot. We rushed her to the military clinic and she was transported to the regional university children’s hospital. They kept her for two nights and she had quite a few more seizures. She has done fine but it was very scary. She was not given a medical exemption, but the vaccine schedule was slowed down and the military clinic will only give her one shot at a time. So yeah, I do vaccinate all my kids but I understand why others don’t. And I find it so frustrating that people claim that vaccines are completely safe even when the government pays out compensation to many families each year (no, I never filed a claim but have considered it) and drs give out sheets stating all the reactions that are known to occur.