Compromising with wife

[Xantippe]

If you have three autism spectrum children in your family, that points to genetic causation rather than environment. I can’t find the article this minute, but in a family with one autistic child, the odds of a second are about 1 in 7 and the odds for a family with 2 autistic children is even higher.

This. Yes, there are concerns. It’s sad to see the name-calling here, and accusations that they ‘want the herd immunity without the risk to themselves,’ of anyone who chooses not to vaccinate.

My children are vaccinated, and I have three who without a doubt are on the autism spectrum. So, yes, it does concern me whether I myself exposed them to that. And I don’t think that I deserve to be called names (conspiracy theorist??? really???) because I have some concerns. Considering I’m the one dealing with the autistic behaviors every day–being repeatedly called into school, being accused by my own family of being a lousy mother, being on my own dealing with this as a result, worrying about their future and whether they’ll ever be capable of taking care of themselves, worried about their emotional well-being because of others’ reactions to their behavior–it’s a real slap in the face to told that if I so much as consider whether maybe reports of the vaccination-autism connection have any truth, that I am somehow selfish and guilty of not caring if other people’s children die. REALLY???

We have become a society that gives medications to people without knowing for sure what the long term effects are (thalidomide? early hormonal birth control?). I do not object at all to people stating why they believe there is no connection, showing studies, etc. But as someone else in this thread pointed out, does it really have to include name-calling and accusations of substandard character of others?

As to showing studies that prove a connection: 1. I’m mostly too busy dealing with children and life in general to dig up study after study, and 2. in a sense, it doesn’t matter anyway since, as in most issues, there are studies that contradict one another, so studies that show the opposite of a person’s position are simply dismissed as flawed, anyway.

I’ve seen it way too often, on too many issues, the posting of contradictory studies, and each side simply saying the other side’s study doesn’t count. I don’t know what the answer is to this, but I would hope at least on a Catholic forum of all places, there could be less name-calling and dismissiveness.

 

[on_the_hill]

FWIW, I’m more concerned about what my children eat and what they’re exposed to that way.

As for childhood diseases returning, some of them already are coming back.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think that this is name-calling. If you took offense, please do not for there certainly no personal attack. Having said that, I’m standing behind the statement, as I’ve heard it too many times.

Yes. There really are people who will honestly say that they are skipping the vaccine because they believe that so many other kids have had the vaccination that their kids can safely skip it.

That only works, though, if a tiny percentage of parents go that route.

 

[JSSD]

FWIW, I’m more concerned about what my children eat and what they’re exposed to that way.

As for childhood diseases returning, some of them already are coming back.

I agree, but didn’t want to bring it up.

Disclaimer: Having far, far less evidence on this than we have on vaccines, I think the risk of all the processed foods we eat harbors much more potential than vaccines do. At least you know all the excipients of a vaccine.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I agree, but didn’t want to bring it up.

Disclaimer: Having far, far less evidence on this than we have on vaccines, I think the risk of all the processed foods we eat harbors much more potential than vaccines do. At least you know all the excipients of a vaccine.

I can speak to this. And I wish to bring it around to vaccinations. Thalidomide was brought up earlier and it was pointed out that in the US that it was not approved. HOWEVER. It was used. And scientists and medical professionals did approve it in Germany. When using science and medicine as your foundation you cannot then arbitrarily bring geography into it. My wife has had first hand work with the FDA regulatory process from the food side. The FDA is not really any sort of medical standard. Fen Phen, Yazmin, Yaz, and countless other drugs were approved given out like candy and then recalled. On any given day a study is released about how a drug, or a food, or a chemical my be harmful.
Many people who look down on those who don’t vaccinate will do as you just did and point to processed foods (a catch all term really) or GMOs or hormones in milk and make all sort of decisions for their bodies and their children’s bodies. With very little scientific information and a whole lot of distrust (warranted if you ask me) But yet it is quite hypocritical to then turn around and belittle or judge those who make a decision different from our own. And while if everyone did not vaccinate we would have a problem, I have no problem with a parent deciding not to do it specifically for their child because either of religious reasons (pro life) or health ones.

I think you mentioned that you were a pharmacist. You know better than anyone that drugs are a weighted decision. The benefit of the drug, vs. the harm it may do. I find no problem with those who treat vaccinations the same way.

My entire family tested positive for H1N1 after the shots. We got it from the immunizations. It is not the first time that we have gotten sick after the immunizations. We do not immunize for the flu any more. Our doctor confirmed that it was the exact thing we were immunized for and that the timing was such that he believed it was the vaccination. It almost killed my newborn. Yet, we are told and told that it is impossible, that we were not given a live virus and that we probably contracted it before the vaccination.

My second youngest daughter had very very serious complications in her early life. Feeding tubes, sensory issues genetic deletions etc. Because her immune system is compromised they advised AGAINST immunizations for a good part of her infancy.

It was not that long ago that doctors told people to expose children to someone with a disease. (Chicken pox) to get “immune” to it. So parents would actually intentionally give their children chickenpox because that is what “Doctors” said.

So, yes, we immunize. And yes we eat corn (98 percent of corn is GMO) And yes, we drink milk with hormones and eat Cheetos. AND I used to think that those who were “hippies” about such things (the op’s description) were mentally inferior to those of us who were in the industry. Then I saw the process, the money, and the unquestioning approval by the FDA on certain things. And I saw how people would take such approval as meaning it was never going to harm them.

Vaccinations save lives. GMO food, feeds the world. But I don’t really question those who wish to make the decision to opt out for whatever reason. I used to though and now, not so much.

 

[LongingSoul]

Yes. There really are people who will honestly say that they are skipping the vaccine because they believe that so many other kids have had the vaccination that their kids can safely skip it.

That only works, though, if a tiny percentage of parents go that route.

We’re in a generation too far removed from the horror of epidemics. My parents were geneology nuts and we visisted cemetaries at every town we ever passed through for the relatives that were buried there. One of those towns had a cemetary literally riddled with victims of diptheria. One of my ancestors lost 5 of her 8 children to the disease. How do you cope with such a thing? Imagine losing one child to such an awful death let alone 5?

That sobering reality, continues to temper any indignance I might be tempted to feel towards the practice of mass vaccinations. I think our energy should continue to be directed towards true ethical practice in pharaceutical science and industry. It seems to be a dynamic prone to the pride and greed in men.

 

[bitterhope]

I can speak to this. And I wish to bring it around to vaccinations. Thalidomide was brought up earlier and it was pointed out that in the US that it was not approved. HOWEVER. It was used. And scientists and medical professionals did approve it in Germany. When using science and medicine as your foundation you cannot then arbitrarily bring geography into it. My wife has had first hand work with the FDA regulatory process from the food side. The FDA is not really any sort of medical standard. Fen Phen, Yazmin, Yaz, and countless other drugs were approved given out like candy and then recalled. On any given day a study is released about how a drug, or a food, or a chemical my be harmful.
Many people who look down on those who don’t vaccinate will do as you just did and point to processed foods (a catch all term really) or GMOs or hormones in milk and make all sort of decisions for their bodies and their children’s bodies. With very little scientific information and a whole lot of distrust (warranted if you ask me) But yet it is quite hypocritical to then turn around and belittle or judge those who make a decision different from our own. And while if everyone did not vaccinate we would have a problem, I have no problem with a parent deciding not to do it specifically for their child because either of religious reasons (pro life) or health ones.

I think you mentioned that you were a pharmacist. You know better than anyone that drugs are a weighted decision. The benefit of the drug, vs. the harm it may do. I find no problem with those who treat vaccinations the same way.

My entire family tested positive for H1N1 after the shots. We got it from the immunizations. It is not the first time that we have gotten sick after the immunizations. We do not immunize for the flu any more. Our doctor confirmed that it was the exact thing we were immunized for and that the timing was such that he believed it was the vaccination. It almost killed my newborn. Yet, we are told and told that it is impossible, that we were not given a live virus and that we probably contracted it before the vaccination.

My second youngest daughter had very very serious complications in her early life. Feeding tubes, sensory issues genetic deletions etc. Because her immune system is compromised they advised AGAINST immunizations for a good part of her infancy.

It was not that long ago that doctors told people to expose children to someone with a disease. (Chicken pox) to get “immune” to it. So parents would actually intentionally give their children chickenpox because that is what “Doctors” said.

So, yes, we immunize. And yes we eat corn (98 percent of corn is GMO) And yes, we drink milk with hormones and eat Cheetos. AND I used to think that those who were “hippies” about such things (the op’s description) were mentally inferior to those of us who were in the industry. Then I saw the process, the money, and the unquestioning approval by the FDA on certain things. And I saw how people would take such approval as meaning it was never going to harm them.

Vaccinations save lives. GMO food, feeds the world. But I don’t really question those who wish to make the decision to opt out for whatever reason. I used to though and now, not so much.

I agree with this entirely. No one is supposed to contract measles from the MMR but my son did, and the dr confirmed that it was measles. The other MMR reaction was same symptoms but praise God did not go into encephalitis. Drs never confirmed it was measles though, but did say not to have another MMR. It had to be the vaccine because no one in our geographical area had measles at the time and the incubation length matched the vaccine. Many people get the flu similarly from the flu shot. Chicken pox vaccines I don’t think work at all. All my kids have had it and later had chicken pox. Many other moms tell me the same thing about their kids. I reluctantly agree that vaccines are relatively safe and effective but I’m not completely convinced of it. I will vaccinate my future children if I have more as well, but will continue to watch them vigilantly afterwards.

I do understand the problems with processed foods as well and we do still eat them. My family is mostly farmers so it’s something I know quite a bit about. Most “organic” foods aren’t any more natural than the others when it’s all said and done. But we are eradicating hunger through technology supposedly. We are also eradicating the family farms but that’s another thread.

Maybe if we all didn’t live in the fear of what could happen and instead took a step back and looked at the big picture we would not feel such strong opinions against one another and instead understand where others are coming from. Take reasonable precautions and then let God help us deal with the outcome. If we each did that we would not even consider it important what anyone else decides to do in their own families.

One question I have is would people really blame another for giving them an illness? That doesn’t sound like a Christian attitude to have. Even if it were “preventable” I don’t see how an illness is anyone’s fault. My kids had their chicken pox shot and caught it anyway, so it is still possible that they could have spread it, with or without the vaccine. It went through their school like wildfire! Supposedly all the kids were up to date on vaccines and the ones who didn’t catch it were the ones that had already had chicken pox. I don’t blame anybody. It never occurred to me to place blame.

 

[Xantippe]

One question I have is would people really blame another for giving them an illness? That doesn’t sound like a Christian attitude to have. Even if it were “preventable” I don’t see how an illness is anyone’s fault. My kids had their chicken pox shot and caught it anyway, so it is still possible that they could have spread it, with or without the vaccine. It went through their school like wildfire! Supposedly all the kids were up to date on vaccines and the ones who didn’t catch it were the ones that had already had chicken pox. I don’t blame anybody. It never occurred to me to place blame.

Well, if I had a small infant who was hospitalized with whooping cough because of contact with a willfully unvaccinated child, I’d be ticked off and would feel that the parents had been negligent and/or selfish. (I don’t mean a case where there was good medical reason to not vaccinate that particular child. There’s a big difference between, “my pediatrician said she shouldn’t get the follow-up MMR because of her reaction to the first one” vs. “I’ve read a lot of stuff on Baby Center”.)

Again, here’s the Simcha Fisher post with a video clip of a hospitalized 7 week old with whooping cough.

patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2014/04/08/polio-and-mumps-are-manageable-diseases/

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, if I had a small infant who was hospitalized with whooping cough because of contact with a willfully unvaccinated child, I’d be ticked off and would feel that the parents had been negligent and/or selfish. (I don’t mean a case where there was good medical reason to not vaccinate that particular child. There’s a big difference between, “my pediatrician said she shouldn’t get the follow-up MMR because of her reaction to the first one” vs. “I’ve read a lot of stuff on Baby Center”.)

Again, here’s the Simcha Fisher post with a video clip of a hospitalized 7 week old with whooping cough.

patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2014/04/08/polio-and-mumps-are-manageable-diseases/

Again the hypocrisy. You post this

“I’ve read a lot of stuff on Baby Center”

And then post that link that might as well be set to a Sarah Mclachlan song complete with suffering puppies. The point is that I would be skeptical of any sort of source that was making a play at emotion and using such loaded wording as your site.

Again I don’t really have a dog in teh fight one way or the other but in the interest of fair play and debate, I don’t see the difference between what you demean and what you support.

It certainly does not further civil and logical debate.

 

[LongingSoul]

Well, if I had a small infant who was hospitalized with whooping cough because of contact with a willfully unvaccinated child, I’d be ticked off and would feel that the parents had been negligent and/or selfish. (I don’t mean a case where there was good medical reason to not vaccinate that particular child. There’s a big difference between, “my pediatrician said she shouldn’t get the follow-up MMR because of her reaction to the first one” vs. “I’ve read a lot of stuff on Baby Center”.)

I think it is healthy though, for society to support the notion of ‘conscientious objection’. Deferring all control over to one ideology (even when that ideology is serving a good purpose) is not a sound policy. Focusing blame on a ‘conscientious objector’ is a danger to that basic right to freedom.

NB. I have vaccinated all my children. Just saying that I would stop short of blaming any one individual for them falling sick.

 

[bitterhope]

Well, if I had a small infant who was hospitalized with whooping cough because of contact with a willfully unvaccinated child, I’d be ticked off and would feel that the parents had been negligent and/or selfish. (I don’t mean a case where there was good medical reason to not vaccinate that particular child. There’s a big difference between, “my pediatrician said she shouldn’t get the follow-up MMR because of her reaction to the first one” vs. “I’ve read a lot of stuff on Baby Center”.)

Again, here’s the Simcha Fisher post with a video clip of a hospitalized 7 week old with whooping cough.

patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2014/04/08/polio-and-mumps-are-manageable-diseases/

I’ve had whooping cough. I know it’s worse than misery. I caught it from a nursing home. But vaccinated children can and do get and spread preventable diseases at times too. I still don’t see how we can go around and place blame on a kid or parent for an illness. A baby (or anybody) can catch whooping cough from the vaccinated child that also came down with it from someone else. It’s the same with many illnesses. My two kids are medically exempt but I had no way if knowing that they would react like they did. I chose to chance it. If I had known I would have not allowed the shot. But I don’t fault a parent one bit for postponing or bypassing because they also don’t know how their kid will react. I hear a lot of people using fear tactics to show why shots are so important, yet they deny the fears of the parents that choose not to vaccinate. Both sides are full of fear and full of people making decisions based on fear. That clouds the judgement of people on both sides severely. If we step back and allow ourselves to look at the big picture and make informed choices not based on fear but based on risks-vs-benefits, people will at least be able to see the view points of the ones that choose differently.

And yes, I agree that vaccines save many lives, but I also know that they risk lives for minimal protection at times too. We both vaccinate our kids. I just don’t see the benefit of faulting another person for a disease or illness that I or my kids may come down with. Especially since it may very well be spread around by the vaccinated population.

 

[Xantippe]

Again the hypocrisy. You post this

And then post that link that might as well be set to a Sarah Mclachlan song complete with suffering puppies. The point is that I would be skeptical of any sort of source that was making a play at emotion and using such loaded wording as your site.

Again I don’t really have a dog in teh fight one way or the other but in the interest of fair play and debate, I don’t see the difference between what you demean and what you support.

It certainly does not further civil and logical debate.

Here’s the thing–people focus on the dangers of vaccination reactions while pooh-poohing the diseases that are being vaccinated against. (Not here, but elsewhere–it’s a normal feature of these discussions for people to talk as though “natural” whooping cough or polio is somehow no big deal.)

In a society with a high level of vaccination coverage, the vaccine reactions are going to be high visibility and everybody’s going to have a story, while the dangers of the diseases themselves are mostly quite invisible, well, right up until it’s too late. Talking about the dangers of the diseases themselves is thus an important ingredient to balance the discussion.

And for the scare file, here’s a stock photo of a polio ward full of iron lungs apparently from 1952 (that’s when my parents were little kids–not long ago at all):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iron_lungs.JPG

 

[bitterhope]

Here’s the thing–people focus on the dangers of vaccination reactions while pooh-poohing the diseases that are being vaccinated against. (Not here, but elsewhere–it’s a normal feature of these discussions for people to talk as though “natural” whooping cough or polio is somehow no big deal.)

In a society with a high level of vaccination coverage, the vaccine reactions are going to be high visibility and everybody’s going to have a story, while the dangers of the diseases themselves are mostly quite invisible, well, right up until it’s too late. Talking about the dangers of the diseases themselves is thus an important ingredient to balance the discussion.

And for the scare file, here’s a stock photo of a polio ward full of iron lungs apparently from 1952 (that’s when my parents were little kids–not long ago at all):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iron_lungs.JPG

See this is the problem.

You are trying to scare people into agreeing with you and that is never going to work.

You and others are pooh-poohing the fears of the other side without even acknowledging their legitimacy. Yes, horrible disease have nearly been irradiated thanks in large part to vaccines. Small pox for one is so minimally a threat now that we don’t even vaccinate for it (unless your a soldier on your way to war, and a few other cases). You have, as a mom, weighed the risks and arrived at a conclusion that I hope you are completely at peace with. Another mom may arrive at a different conclusion based on the risks or based on the fact she doesn’t want aborted babies injected into her kid. She has every right to do that and we should respect that right. Otherwise we have no right to decide differently than the majority of people and expect our opinion to be respected. Can you imagine not being free to make your own choices without fear? That is a scary scenario to me. Much scarier than a world with rampant diseases that might take me or my kids home to Jesus sooner than I planned.

 

[Xantippe]

See this is the problem.

You are trying to scare people into agreeing with you and that is never going to work.

You and others are pooh-poohing the fears of the other side without even acknowledging their legitimacy.

**No–I have mentioned that vaccine reactions are real (though rare) and that some children genuinely cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons or because they are too small. **

Yes, horrible disease have nearly been irradiated thanks in large part to vaccines. Small pox for one is so minimally a threat now that we don’t even vaccinate for it (unless your a soldier on your way to war, and a few other cases). You have, as a mom, weighed the risks and arrived at a conclusion that I hope you are completely at peace with. Another mom may arrive at a different conclusion based on the risks or based on the fact she doesn’t want aborted babies injected into her kid. She has every right to do that and we should respect that right.

But perhaps she shouldn’t also have the right to send those unvaccinated-by-choice children to public school, have them accepted as patients at the pediatrician of her choice or to expect a warm welcome in other settings where there are tiny children and vulnerable adults.

Otherwise we have no right to decide differently than the majority of people and expect our opinion to be respected. Can you imagine not being free to make your own choices without fear? That is a scary scenario to me. Much scarier than a world with rampant diseases that might take me or my kids home to Jesus sooner than I planned.

…Or leave your children crippled for life or depending on a machine to help them breathe for the rest of their lives.

 

[Royalist]

OP asked for help compromising with his wife, not for a debate about vaccination…

I think the answer is already in this thread: all other countries schedule less vaccinations than the US, on average half as many. So there’s your compromise. Give your kids less vaccinations and space them out more.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

…Or leave your children crippled for life or depending on a machine to help them breathe for the rest of their lives.

1. The scare tactics make the case for vaccinations look weaker. Like some sort of play of emotions (fear) is needed to make the choice to vaccinate. It damages the credibility of your position.
2. If I vaccinated my children or not or if Suzie Q next door does or not, does not mean anyone is going to walk around crippled. Overstating the case means you have a weak case. And think about it? Why is the video you cited made? Why are the mommy blogs full of more vitriol than the mob on this issue? Why so much scare tactics? Why do people live and die on this hill? What is the driving motivation?

 

[Xantippe]

OP asked for help compromising with his wife, not for a debate about vaccination…

I think the answer is already in this thread: all other countries schedule less vaccinations than the US, on average half as many. So there’s your compromise. Give your kids less vaccinations and space them out more.

The US has a much bigger population than most other developed countries (nearly 5X bigger than the UK, 6X bigger than Spain, 30X bigger than Austria, 60X bigger than Finland) and covers a vast geographic area compared to most other developed countries. We have 2,000 miles of border with Mexico and some estimates are that about 10% of our population is illegal. Hence, we should expect to be much more “interesting” from the point of public health than, say, Denmark. With our stats, 2X the number of recommended vaccinations does not sound at all out of line.

 

[Xantippe]

1. The scare tactics make the case for vaccinations look weaker. Like some sort of play of emotions (fear) is needed to make the choice to vaccinate. It damages the credibility of your position.

Why is it legitimate to discuss vaccine reactions or autism risks and illegitimate to talk about the risks of the diseases the vaccines protect against? It strikes me as being a very fair way to run the discussion.

1. If I vaccinated my children or not or if Suzie Q next door does or not, does not mean anyone is going to walk around crippled.

**We are in the middle of an explosion of previously rare childhood diseases that closely tracks the appearance of the anti-vaccine movement.

Furthermore, polio reappeared in Israel thanks to the war in Syria.

medscape.com/viewarticle/814041**

Overstating the case means you have a weak case. And think about it? Why is the video you cited made? Why are the mommy blogs full of more vitriol than the mob on this issue? Why so much scare tactics? Why do people live and die on this hill? What is the driving motivation?

Not seeing tiny children unnecessarily suffer and die? That’s a pretty good motivation in my book.

 

[thewanderer]

Why is it legitimate to discuss vaccine reactions or autism risks and illegitimate to talk about the risks of the diseases the vaccines protect against? It strikes me as being a very fair way to run the discussion.

Xantippe, I highly doubt HoosierDaddy has an issue with calmly discussing the pros and cons of each side in this question. The issue is that instead of calmly and rationally presenting the arguments for vaccines you are using emotion-laden rhetoric to both bludgeon and scare people into getting them.

 

[msammiem]

It seems unreasonable to me that a person would not want to vaccinate their children against possible horrible diseases. I think you should stick to your guns on this one,

Also, as others have pointed out, a child who hasn’t been vaccinated also can spread disease to others. I believe that those who haven’t been vaccinated properly should be kept at home.