Concept of hell

[PennitentMan]

And what did you expect of your faith? What did you expect God to provide for you?

I don’t know that I can make it more simple. Faith is a gift, and a fruit of the spirit, right? Eph. 2:8-9 and Gal. 5:22
I requested from god that he bestow that gift on me. More faith, for me to somehow have a firm belief in him when my doubts are overshadowing me.

Again, this doesn’t seem to sync with what your saying here. You claim that you never asked, except at the very end, for such fanciful requests – and yet you claim God never answered such fanciful requests.

The request was always the same, the manner in which I wanted him to bestow it on me changed. I always asked for faith, so that I could believe more, but when my prayers kept on being unanswered and I could see that I’m slipping further away, I started asking for a bigger bolder way for god to show himself to me…to increase my faith.

Still seems like your not being honest – at least with yourself. (no you don’t need to respond to me…but try to answer yourself)

It may seem that way all you want….I love my wife dearly and that bond is priority #1….I’ll admit that it goes in close proximity with our physical expression towards one another of that love, but the main goal for us was to keep our marriage and family unit intact. It may seem a certain way all you like, maybe you are reading something into it…maybe you are looking at my story with “catholic colored glasses” and you just can’t see what I’m saying…doesn’t make it less true….not when I tell you , or myself in the mirror.

It still sounds like your just blaming God and the Church for your own spiritual weaknesses and not having a “perfect” life.

I’ll say again:
Maybe you are reading something into it…maybe you are looking at my story with “catholic colored glasses” and you just can’t see what I’m saying…doesn’t make it less true….not when I tell you , or myself in the mirror.

I don’t see anything here that seriously alters my original thoughts on what you presented.

then I can’t explain it to you any clearer….do you just not want to see things any other way than the Catholic way? You have a pre-conceived point of view, and until you can see things the way they are, then I guess I can’t explain it to you any differently.
That’s the problem too isn’t it? The teachings and rules are so engrained that you can’t grasp any other ideas or even believe a set of circumstances. We encountered this too with priests and church members when we sought help. They just don’t believe us or that that scenario can happen. I don’t blame you, I was also there once….where I was too indoctrinated to think in any other way…only when it happened to me did I seem to understand and realize.

 

[PennitentMan]

HI PenitentMan, You know i love you and you know something else is bothering you,
Did you doubt God and then follow the steps that lead you to another side of Wisdom? A distant path to destroy your very soul? Were you so doubtful you read things just to prove that there was no God? That there was no sence in praying?
Were you searching to find a reason not to believe, and to feel better in how you were living? Your thought’s just didn’t fly out of the sky, something drew you further away from your true love. Take an inventory, a real inventory, then see what you come up with. Love of Christ Nancy

Ah…that’s the crux now isn’t it? The answer to your questions, Nancy, is no. As in my story, I desperately wanted to believe…I wanted, craved for faith in god. I was hanging on even though my faith was dwindling.
Then, when god didn’t grant me that fruit of the spirit, the gift of faith, I decided to start reading what I could, in order to gain more knowledge of god…to prove to myself that he is real and that I can believe in him…that my belief will be well-founded and it’s not an empty baseless thing….I searched for extra-biblical proof, of course, since you can’t use the bible to prove the bible or Christianity, that would be a fruitless exercise, for obvious reasons.
Well, in my quest to find god, I found that there is no proof of god. There is no concrete evidence to firmly ground my faith and that led me to agnosticism….and in reality, the facts that I did read about, all the available facts, seem to imply that the opposite…which kinda leads to Atheism…(If I’m to believe anything about god, it is that he doesn’t exist) and that was backed up by my exercises in prayer.

So, I did end up taking a real inventory of the facts and history as it stands and I came up with (in the least) agnosticism.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Unanswered Prayer – Unheard Answers
Are you experiencing unanswered prayer? Does God turn a deaf ear to some of your desperate pleas for healing, finances, or protection? We all experience irritation when our best efforts to communicate result in an unsatisfactory response – or worse, no response at all. We wonder, “Did you ever receive my message?” When we pray, we often equate the lack of immediate tangible results with God rejecting our prayers. In James 5:13-16 we are urged to pray earnestly with the promise of “powerful and wonderful results.” Why would God emphasize the importance of prayer and then choose not to respond with a joyful answer?

When answering prayer, God responds first to our attitude, much as a parent responds to a precious child (Psalm 103:13-14). Our childish actions and attitudes frequently affect a prayer’s desired results. Unforgiveness (Mark 11:24-25), selfishness (Proverbs 21:13), doubt (Matthew 21:21-22), greed (James 4:2-3), pride (2 Chronicles 7:14-15), and stubbornness (Zechariah 7:11-13) hinder God’s desire to answer prayer.

Unanswered Prayer – Unexpected Answers
Prayer is not a casual one-sided conversation. It is not “back-up insurance” guaranteeing a life free from pain and struggles. Prayer is actively acknowledging God as the source of all power and trusting that His answers, whether expected or unexpected, will accomplish greater things (Isaiah 46:9-10; 64:4). Here is a true story,( by anonymous)

Matt and our daughter, Jackie, both musicians, became close friends. As a drummer, he would play back-up whenever she sang with the worship band. Matt’s deepest desire was to teach God’s Word and perhaps enter the ministry. Their common interests drew them closer. As a high-school junior, Jackie hoped to attend the same out-of-state university as Matt. Then, Matt was diagnosed with advanced lymphatic cancer. Jackie says, “I had great faith that God would heal Matt. He had such a passion to be a pastor, teaching others. I knew God wouldn’t take his life because Matt could make such a difference in this world.” She prayed for his healing.

In September of Jackie’s senior year, Matt died. Jackie responded with anger and disbelief with God for seemingly not answering her prayers: “Initially, I blamed God. Later, I blamed myself, thinking I didn’t pray hard enough, or maybe I accidentally missed praying one day.” Following graduation, Jackie began attending a Christian university. Through friends, she began releasing the pain and grief locked inside, eating away at her in solitude. “Once I actually voiced my suffering to another, the healing began, and I experienced God’s love and strength again” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

Matt had taught all of us that he valued his eternal relationship with God more than any temporary life he had on earth. We had all prayed for Matt to live, and God answered with a wondrous “YES!” (John 11:25). In the last semester of our daughter’s junior year in college, she met Michael. “I was first attracted to Mike’s intense love for God. I knew God was accomplishing His plans in all our lives.” Today, Michael serves the Lord, teaching and sharing God’s love with intense passion. And when Jackie sings of God’s greatness, her devoted husband, Michael, accompanies her on the conga drums (Jeremiah 29:11).

Unanswered Prayer – Understanding Answers
Sometimes, God will answer, “No” to our desperate prayers. Any delay or unexpected outcome must not dishearten us. What is God’s true purpose in answering our prayers (John 14:13)? What does God want to complete in us through prayer (John 16:23–24)? God wants us to bring our every need to Him as He answers (yes or no) according to His character and will. God will never grant requests contrary to His will. While receiving a “Yes” usually makes us happy, God never promised us happiness. Happiness is based on circumstances. God wants us to have everlasting joy – especially when He responds, “No, it will be done in My time, not yours. No, I will reveal My glory.”

In Luke 22:41-44, Jesus agonized over the events leading up to His death. In fervent prayer, His greatest desire was to give preeminence to God’s will, not His suffering and pain (Hebrews 12:2). When we pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18), God always responds, and every answer brings joy. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[PennitentMan]

Unanswered Prayer – Unheard Answers
Are you experiencing unanswered prayer? Does God turn a deaf ear to some of your desperate pleas for healing, finances, or protection? We all experience irritation when our best efforts to communicate result in an unsatisfactory response – or worse, no response at all. We wonder, “Did you ever receive my message?” When we pray, we often equate the lack of immediate tangible results with God rejecting our prayers. In James 5:13-16 we are urged to pray earnestly with the promise of “powerful and wonderful results.” Why would God emphasize the importance of prayer and then choose not to respond with a joyful answer?

When answering prayer, God responds first to our attitude, much as a parent responds to a precious child (Psalm 103:13-14). Our childish actions and attitudes frequently affect a prayer’s desired results. Unforgiveness (Mark 11:24-25), selfishness (Proverbs 21:13), doubt (Matthew 21:21-22), greed (James 4:2-3), pride (2 Chronicles 7:14-15), and stubbornness (Zechariah 7:11-13) hinder God’s desire to answer prayer.

Did I pray with any of these motivations? Nope. But then, what this cut and paste is saying is that god sometimes chooses not to answer prayers…contradicting those that say that god always answer prayer.

Unanswered Prayer – Unexpected Answers
Prayer is not a casual one-sided conversation.

It felt like that to me. Just my voice going off into the void…

It is not “back-up insurance” guaranteeing a life free from pain and struggles. Prayer is actively acknowledging God as the source of all power and trusting that His answers, whether expected or unexpected, will accomplish greater things (Isaiah 46:9-10; 64:4).

Sure, maybe…but when one is drifting away and the danger is very real for that person to turn their back on god, even though they are trying not to, just by them losing faith…why didn’t god step in? There was nothing not even in my pleads and begins for some acknowledgement…nothing…so, even in my deepest despair and longing for god, it was a one-sided conversation. I lost my faith in god and he did nothing. Now, because of my unbelief, people say that I’m going to hell…well, guess how I ended up there….by god’s inability to show himself. The reason why he didn’t show himself is because he’s not there.

Here is a true story,( by anonymous)
Matt and our daughter, Jackie, both musicians, became close friends. As a drummer, he would play back-up whenever she sang with the worship band. Matt’s deepest desire was to teach God’s Word and perhaps enter the ministry. Their common interests drew them closer. As a high-school junior, Jackie hoped to attend the same out-of-state university as Matt. Then, Matt was diagnosed with advanced lymphatic cancer. Jackie says, “I had great faith that God would heal Matt. He had such a passion to be a pastor, teaching others. I knew God wouldn’t take his life because Matt could make such a difference in this world.” She prayed for his healing.

In September of Jackie’s senior year, Matt died. Jackie responded with anger and disbelief with God for seemingly not answering her prayers: “Initially, I blamed God. Later, I blamed myself, thinking I didn’t pray hard enough, or maybe I accidentally missed praying one day.” Following graduation, Jackie began attending a Christian university. Through friends, she began releasing the pain and grief locked inside, eating away at her in solitude. “Once I actually voiced my suffering to another, the healing began, and I experienced God’s love and strength again” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

Matt had taught all of us that he valued his eternal relationship with God more than any temporary life he had on earth. We had all prayed for Matt to live, and God answered with a wondrous “YES!” (John 11:25). In the last semester of our daughter’s junior year in college, she met Michael. “I was first attracted to Mike’s intense love for God. I knew God was accomplishing His plans in all our lives.” Today, Michael serves the Lord, teaching and sharing God’s love with intense passion. And when Jackie sings of God’s greatness, her devoted husband, Michael, accompanies her on the conga drums (Jeremiah 29:11).

Was Matt ever in danger of losing his soul?
By your theology god wants all of us to be saved an in heaven, right?…So by this logic, death is almost inconsequential and the bigger goal is everlasting life. So, I can’t really see how this relates.

Unanswered Prayer – Understanding Answers
Sometimes, God will answer, “No” to our desperate prayers. Any delay or unexpected outcome must not dishearten us. What is God’s true purpose in answering our prayers (John 14:13)? What does God want to complete in us through prayer (John 16:23–24)? God wants us to bring our every need to Him as He answers (yes or no) according to His character and will. God will never grant requests contrary to His will. While receiving a “Yes” usually makes us happy, God never promised us happiness. Happiness is based on circumstances. God wants us to have everlasting joy – especially when He responds, “No, it will be done in My time, not yours. No, I will reveal My glory.”

No, that’s just Christians justifying why prayer doesn’t work. “God’s plan” and “god’s time” are their way to understand why things still turned out as nasty and why it looks like god’s not really there…I’s just life and nature taking it’s inevitable course.

 

[PennitentMan]

Please, I doubt you know anything about what is truly meant by a dark night of the soul – or the depths of the relationship between Blessed Teresa of Calcutta and God.

Some quotes:

Where is my faith? Even deep down … there is nothing but emptiness and darkness … If there be God—please forgive me. When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul … How painful is this unknown pain—I have no Faith. Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal, … What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true

…as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see,—Listen and do not hear—the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak … I want you to pray for me—that I let Him have [a] free hand."

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

PeninetMan, i realy think you will make it to heaven, i realy feel that you have bought alot of people closer to God by the way you are here, and know your scriptures and realy project as someone who wants more of God and is still looking for approval of others( In a negitive way) you are still in a defenceive mode, yet there is more about you then you are saying. Lets face it you made your point day’s ago, and yet i can feel doubt there, not unbelief. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[PennitentMan]

PeninetMan, i realy think you will make it to heaven, i realy feel that you have bought alot of people closer to God by the way you are here, and know your scriptures and realy project as someone who wants more of God and is still looking for approval of others( In a negitive way) you are still in a defenceive mode, yet there is more about you then you are saying. Lets face it you made your point day’s ago, and yet i can feel doubt there, not unbelief. Love of Christ Nancy

Hi Nancy. Thanks for teh vote of confidence!

I have to say though that there is no doubt in me, I’m firmly agnostic with atheis tendencies…I hang aruond here because of a healthy need to defend my life’s story (after I posted it) when people assume the wrong things, when they don’t understand.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hi Nancy. Thanks for teh vote of confidence!

I have to say though that there is no doubt in me, I’m firmly agnostic with atheis tendencies…I hang aruond here because of a healthy need to defend my life’s story (after I posted it) when people assume the wrong things, when they don’t understand.

As nancy and I mentioned, you need to take time to introspect your own past and contemplate your future. Bear in mind that you are not the only person who has ever faced adversity or those particular set of problems. Many more have faced even worse crises in their lives and are currently battling greater tragedies than those that you have and are likely to have experienced in your life. A good place to start is with the lives of the Saints…countless of them have faced down the lions (literally and figuratively) and have persevered.

Good luck.

 

[PennitentMan]

As Nancy and I mentioned, you need to take time to introspect your own past and contemplate your future. Bear in mind that you are not the only person who has ever faced adversity or those particular set of problems. Many more have faced even worse crises in their lives and are currently battling greater tragedies than those that you have and are likely to have experienced in your life. A good place to start is with the lives of the Saints…countless of them have faced down the lions (literally and figuratively) and have persevered.

Good luck.

Thanks JMJ.
I have contemplated my future, hence my break from the church.

And as for the saints and other folks, I’m sure that there are people facing worse tragedies and problems that I did, but if they choose to sit back and have a situation ruin their lives without doing anything about it, because of “Mr. Invisible”, then that’s their choice, I guess.

I choose to fix my live and live a happy and productive one. I choose to give my kids a happy family, hone and marriage, with a mother and a father that’s a) still alive and present and b) happy and fit to take the best care of them.

Thanks, and good luck to you too!