Concept of hell

[nancy_dalrymple]

“Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.” (Hosea 4:17)
Our God is long-suffering and full of mercy, but there is a line which must not be crossed. it is dangerous to presume that god will always contuine to forgive: He can become a “consuming fire”(Hebrews 12:29).
The leaders of Ephraim (a collcetive term for the ten northern tribes of Isreal) had passed tis point of no return. They had become copmpletly infactuated with the pantheistic polytheism of the nations, being 'joined" to their symbolic models of natural forces and all the immoral practices which accompanied such nature worship.The word for “joined” means fasinated by. They had been brought so deeply under the occult powers behind these nature-god idols as to be irrevocably commited to them, so that it would be a waste of time and tears to try to reclaim hem now.
The scriptures contain many similar warnings. “My spirit shall not always strive with man”(Genisis 6:3) :Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind" (Mathew 15:14) " THere is a sin unto death: i do not say that he shall pray for it" (1stJohn 5:16). give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine" (Mathew 7:6. Pharaoh repeatedly :hardened his heart" against God, and finally God Himself hardened Pharaoh’s heart(e.g., Exodus 8:15: 10:27). “God gave them up” (Romans 1:24,26,28).
These should be sobering words to anyone who is becoming enchanted with evolutionism,or occultism,or any form of pantheistic humanism. As long as such a person has ant qualm of conscience, or even ant doubts about the psedo-scientific philosophy to which he is becoming addicted, there is hope that he might yet turn to the true Gd of creation. To contunue in his prsent course, however, is presumptuous and deadly. The time will come, perhaps sooner than he thinks, when God will say: “Let him alone.” HMM

 

[Mijoy2]

There are some very sick people out there, some even explicitly desire hell. But, most don’t do this explicitly but implicitly.

How many people do you know that are consumed with the acquisition of wealth? How many do you know that spend all week thinking about their weekend flings? How many do you know that would rather sleep in on Sunday than go to Mass?

Yes I understand. But this does not coincide with our concept of hell. If one were to read the “vision of hell” the three seers witnessed at Fatima (for example) one cannot understand the justice behind what these burning souls are experiencing with sleeping in on Sunday mornings.

Here, perhaps, is were many people who may other wise have been drawn to the church are turned away. People (largely) are drawn by logic and the lack of logic here is perhaps a deterrent to many.

C.S.Lewis The Great Divorce, depicts a vastly different image of hell. One that may fit better with peoples inherent intuition of justice. In other words people create their own eternal concepts of their eternal existence. However Lewis’s hell in his book is not the same as the concept of hell we are handed down through the tradition of the church. The worm that does not die, eternal flames etc etc.

Personally, I can understand Lewis rendition of hell. I’d feel better if this was the “hell” taught to us in scripture and from our Church.

 

[mark_a]

if God so loved the world including offcourse his people then why he created hell to suffer his children?

I’ve heard Fr. Groeschel describe hell as the kindest place there could possibly be for souls who cannot accept God.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

HI Mark, Do you mean a kinda Sodom and Gemorrah?Think of the worst thing that could ever happen to you in life, now that’s on earth happening. Now think of Hell, nothing on earth can compare to it. Get the picture? You are loved Nancy
PS Mark Some people preach on love, some on, God’s rath, and ther are some who teach on wisdom ETC but God has 7 spirits and he has our thought’s and nature, he came here to save us from eternal damination, and he became just like us except there was no sin found in him.You have to take all the quality’s of God and put them together His love, his rath, he even hates, (the sin but loves the sinner) He knows exactly how we feel, he has all of our quality’s but everything he does he does for our good and the good of what he made.My God is a well rounded person and is all things to all people. But there is a hell and there is weeping and nashing of teeth (It’s HOT)

 

[JMJ_coder]

Yes I understand. But this does not coincide with our concept of hell. If one were to read the “vision of hell” the three seers witnessed at Fatima (for example) one cannot understand the justice behind what these burning souls are experiencing with sleeping in on Sunday mornings.

Here, perhaps, is were many people who may other wise have been drawn to the church are turned away. People (largely) are drawn by logic and the lack of logic here is perhaps a deterrent to many.

“The sin of the century is the loss of the sense of sin.” (Pope Pius XII, Radio Message to the United States National Catechetical Congress - October 26, 1946)

I certainly see the justice. Do you honestly think a person who values God so little that He is worth less in their eyes than an extra hour of sleep or just sitting in front of the tv watching whatever? What would you say of a husband who didn’t want to see or speak to his wife but maybe twice a year or perhaps when he needed something? What a loving husband? I think not.

People today generally don’t see the full horrors and evil of sin. They are buying into the lie – lock, stock, and barrel!

And sin is a lie. It is a deception, a distortion of truth, and a perversion of reality. But we have a choice – believe the truth or believe the lie.

C.S.Lewis The Great Divorce, depicts a vastly different image of hell. One that may fit better with peoples inherent intuition of justice. In other words people create their own eternal concepts of their eternal existence. However Lewis’s hell in his book is not the same as the concept of hell we are handed down through the tradition of the church. The worm that does not die, eternal flames etc etc.

Personally, I can understand Lewis rendition of hell. I’d feel better if this was the “hell” taught to us in scripture and from our Church.

The work and the author are not what I would consider good sources of Catholic theology or spirituality.

 

[wcknight]

It doesn’t seem you know much about God at all. IF I had your image of God, I probably would not believe or want to believe Him either. God is neither the automatic wish granter nor the vengeful monster that you suggest.

You don’t say what troubles you think God caused or how you think God ignored you, so who can say whether you are justified with your reactions. You say you solved your problems on you own without God’s help. I seriously doubt that is entirely true.

Without God’s help you could do absolutely nothing. He gave you the brain that thinks and is able to solve problems. Everything that is you, what makes you function as a human being he created. You could have been born as a quadrapelegic, or born blind or not born at all. You breathe because God lets you breathe. You think because God lets you thinks. You may think God does not exist or you may think He is the source of all your problems. Odds are you are probably wrong on both counts.

The fact is, God does exist and IF He did not, neither would anyone or anything else in the universe exist. The universe didn’t just pop up out of nowhere (if it did, why hasn’t it happened again in 34 billion years). PLUS a universe without God means that at the end of our short life of about 100 years, everyone dies and everything that they know, thought of and felt dies with them. To believe that God does not exist means that you believe life is meaningless and virtually worthless.

IF that is the case why bother ??? IF there is no God, why bother to obey any rules or laws ? why not lie, cheat, steal or do anything and everything that you can get away with ??

 

[PennitentMan]

So, did you spend time in adoration before the Eucharist or in praying the Rosary with the intention, not of any sort of petition for physical well being, but for the primary and exclusive intention of being strengthened in the faith, in submitting to the will of God no matter what it be, in resolution to struggle through temptation and to remain steadfast in loyalty to God no matter the outcome. If so, how long did you persist and did you make these petitions unconditionally, with no strings attached (as in do this or I won’t believe in you)?

Yes I did we went to monthly adoration with the 40 hrs adoration instituted by our priest. Over and above this I went to a perpetual Adoration chapel as many Fridays as I could spare.
I said a rosary every day, some days twice. This went on for ALL of our catholic lives, around 5 years, and simple Christian devotion and unconditional love and requests all through my life.
The paramount request was for more faith.

Only in the last month or two did I ask god to really show himself as proof since my lifetime’s prayers weren’t working.

Beyond that, in what was written gave the indications of a person who has an immature and selfish attitude about the nature of human love.

Maybe it was more like a case of being un-catholic in my point of view. It might have been through poor catechism, but I don’t think so, they did spell out the teachings and rules pretty clear to me.

I assume that there was some condition that would place your wife’s life at risk if she carried a baby to full term. Did you ever consider remaining perpetually continent?

There was. And yes we did consider it. Which is what the bulk of my initial posts on this site was all about. We were ready to give up the physical pleasure if it, but it’s not the reason why we stopped believing. We stopped believing because I became convinced that god is not real.

I have repeatedly observed, in both the blog and in your responses here an attitude of demanding that God make your life materially happy with a fullness of physical health and granting of all physical pleasure.

It became increasingly so at the later end of my Christian journey, because of the fact that god remained absent and didn’t come to our aid….not to have physical pleasure, but in our quest to just survive catholic marriage and still get to heaven. This became an impossibility and with that the attitude “worsened”, if you wanna call it that. But again, that’s not why we stopped believing.

You kinda make it sound like I’m just rebelling against god because I couldn’t have things my way. That’s so totally not the case. If it was, we would have simply moved to another church where the rules were slack and we could choose which to follow.
The journey we were on showed us more and more with our struggles and searchings that there is no god. As we drew closer to that intellectual realization, I did plead and beg and then later request supernatural proof from god to his existence, but after 34 years of praying, my spiritual conclusion seemed only to back up the intellectual one…that god doesn’t exist.

I wanted to correct you in your assumptions on my life. Thank you.

 

[PennitentMan]

The lives of the Saints disprove this. Oh, they may not have lived materially comfortable lives, but they had such a divine peace about them – and a happiness in doing God’s will, no matter what.

Like Mother Theresa?

There is a lot about the lives of the saints that we don’t know and Mother Theresa proves this.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

HI! PennitentMan, you said you were Catholic for 5 years of your life but you spent 34 years praying for God to answer your prayers? What (May i ask) kind of prayers did you say at that time? You did not tempt the Lord thy God did you?I mean I could ask God for a Million dollars every day but i may not ever get what i prayed for because he see’s into the future and it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven then a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[PennitentMan]

HI! PennitentMan, you said you were Catholic for 5 years of your life but you spent 34 years praying for God to answer your prayers? What (May i ask) kind of prayers did you say at that time? You did not tempt the Lord thy God did you?I mean I could ask God for a Million dollars every day but i may not ever get what i prayed for because he see’s into the future and it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven then a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Love of Christ Nancy

Hi Nancy. Great to see you again.
No, as I said on the thread and in my blog, I never asked for earthly things. The one thing that I always prayed for was to have god increase my faith. I was never at a point where I could say that I “felt” god, or that he “showed himself to me”, I always wanted to know god more and to be closer to him, so I prayed…I prayed with heart and should to be drawn nearer to him….on his terms, and in his time, of course.
I just wanted to be a good Christian and a good husband and father.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Nancy. Great to see you again.
No, as I said on the thread and in my blog, I never asked for earthly things. The one thing that I always prayed for was to have god increase my faith. I was never at a point where I could say that I “felt” god, or that he “showed himself to me”, I always wanted to know god more and to be closer to him, so I prayed…I prayed with heart and should to be drawn nearer to him….on his terms, and in his time, of course.
I just wanted to be a good Christian and a good husband and father.

Hi Pal, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word GOD WILL NOT INCREASE YOU, UNTIL YOU INCREASE HIM! REMEMBER HE GETS STRONGER when we are weaker!:thumbsup:You are Loved Nancy

 

[Chrysostom324]

Is it possible to not believe in hell, and still be considered semi-orthodox? I have a very hard time believing that there is some sort of hell. I mean, the Old Testament simply doesn’t mention it, and when some would claim that it does, it only mentions it in the context of Sheol, which is the Hebrew word for the grave, and also isn’t necessarily a place of punishment.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

she’owl, sheh‑ole’, Hebrew 7585; or she’ol, sheh‑ole’; from Hebrew 7592 (sha’al); hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates :‑ grave, hell, pit.

HELL AND HADES. “Hope not ever to see heaven: I come to lead you to the other shore; into the eternal darkness; into fire and into ice.” Dante’s `Inferno’, from which the quotation comes, is perhaps the most vivid depiction in literature of the place of eternal punishment for evildoers. Abodes for the dead have formed a part of the religious belief of most peoples. One reason for such belief has been the reluctance to accept the end of human life on Earth as permanent, as the extinction of individual existence.

The names hell and Hades have generally been understood as places of punishment, either eternal or temporary. Ancient cultures often envisioned an abode for the dead as a reward, or as neutral, rather than always as a punishment. In very ancient primitive religions, as well as among American Indians, the dead went to dwell with their ancestors or to a heavenly location with other souls. Ancient Israel conceived of a place called Sheol, a dark and gloomy place, to be sure, but no elements of punishment were attached to it.

The Greek Hades (originally the name of the god who presided over it) did not suggest punishment either. It was a dark subterranean realm or a distant island. The dead were conducted to Hades by the god Hermes. The way was barred, however, by the River Styx. The dead were ferried across the river by the boatman Charon. Eventually, the Greeks added a place called Tartarus, far below Hades, as a place of torment for the wicked. In time Tartarus lost its distinctness and became another name for Hades.

The word hell comes from an Anglo-Saxon root meaning “concealed,” and it suggests a place hidden in the hot regions at the Earth’s center. In Norse mythology Hel was the name of the world of the dead as well as of its goddess. It was especially for evildoers and was distinguished from Valhalla, the place to which those who had fallen in battle went. The ancient Greek myth of Elysium, or the Elysian fields, was similar to Valhalla. It was a dwelling place for heroes on whom the gods had conferred immortality. Eventually it came to mean the abode for all the blessed dead, as opposed to Hades.

The concept of hell as a place of punishment is rooted in the idea of justice. Hell was offered as an answer to the question: If evildoers prosper throughout their lives and are never punished, when will they get what is coming to them? The answer must be: after they die.

The modern Western understanding of hell derives from the latest period in ancient Israel’s history, and it was more fully developed by early Christianity. The chief suggestion of such a place in the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) is a brief reference in Daniel. The place reserved for the wicked dead was called Gehenna by Jews. Early references depict it as a place of temporary punishment, similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory. By the time Christianity was established, it had become a permanent abode. The torments inflicted there were largely imaginative projections of the worst tortures devised in this world. Eternal fire is the most common punishment, though perpetual cold also has been accepted.

There is no fully developed teaching about hell in the New Testament, though there are frequent mentions of it. Only in the course of later church history was it elaborated into official church doctrine. Today the New Testament statements and their later explanations are taken literally by some Christians, regarded as allegory or myth by some, and denied altogether by others.

Islam has no consistent teaching on hell. It is regarded as permanent in some passages of the Koran and temporary in others. In Hinduism, hell is accepted, but it has no permanent significance. It is but a stage in the long career of the soul. For most Buddhist schools, as well, hell is a transitory phase where sins are purged.

HELL - Hell traditionally denotes the place or state of being of unrepentant souls who are damned to eternal punishment after death. Derived from the Old Teutonic word hel, meaning “to conceal” or “to cover,” the word hell is used in English translations of the Bible to represent both the Hebrew Sheol, an ethically neutral underworld for the departed, and the Greek Gehenna, the underworld for the punishment of the wicked from which the Christian concept of hell developed
Hope this helps some Love of Christ Nancy

 

[wcknight]

PM, it sounds like you are one of those fellows who wants/needs proof that God exists. You want to see some evidence, either private revelation or supernatural event, miracle, or vision that verifies to you that God is real.

Unfortunately we don’t get to choose who gets to experience those sorts of things. When Jesus was around the Pharisees and Scribes, they wanted the same type of show from Him. They wanted Jesus to perform some miracle so they could believe He was who He claimed to be. BUT even when on trial for His life Jesus refused to perform on demand.

God doesn’t happen to work that way. Only in very special circumstances or for a few special people do miracle occur seemingly on a regular basis. We are asked to believe without seeing or without experiencing our own personal miracles. It’s harder this way, but that is the way it is for most. I have been fairly lucky in that, several folks that I know personally have experienced first hand a miracle of sorts or a semi-supernatural event (a near death experience, a vision or a visit from a deceased loved one).

There was a time when I too questioned what was real and whether what I believed in was all just a myth perpetuated by hundreds of years of old wives tales. I lapsed for about 10 years, and after looking into other beliefs and reading as much as I could about anything and everything (death, NDEs, supernatural occurances, etc,etc), eventually returned back to the Church.

There are so many miraculous events throughout the history of the Church and the evidence for these thing are documented in various accounts (plus there is physical evidence that these thing did take place- either eye witness accounts or physical artifacts such as the cloak of St Juan Diego- blood stains from Eucharistic miracles etc), that I finally came to the conclusion that the Church has it 100% right. I came to realization that I don’t need my own personal vision or personal miracle.

And later, small miracles that I thought very unlikely took place as well. I had prayed for the conversion of family members and just out of the blue one of my brothers family converted en masse. It was not immediately after praying but it was very coincidental and totally unexpected. And years later, one of my older sisters needed an operation for a brain aneuryism, and after 2 failed attempts, the third and what would have been her last was successful. The surgeon said her chances were less than 50-50 and if the operation failed she would not survive the night. That’s about as close to dying as you can get.

God doesn’t act upon our requests as immediate as we would like. He doesn’t perform for our satisfation or upon our wish to prove that He exists. He does hear our prayers, but He may or may not wish to answer them and maybe not in the way that we may want. Maybe you’re not ready to be close to God, but I assure you, He will never abandon you. You will get closer to God when you are ready to accept Him on His terms not on yours.

 

[wcknight]

Building up faith comes from within oneself. I think God gives us the initial grace to believe but we have to build up our faith on our own. WHether we accept the grace of God to believe is up to us. And whether we want to increase our faith is also up to us.

I think we can do so by finding out as much as we can about our faith and about the folks who experienced God’s presence first hand. IF we read about the great miracle workers, their works and their experiences, that becomes building blocks for increasing our own beliefs. If we visit holy sites, and see the bodies of saints perfectly preserved for many years, we see first hand the miracles of God at work. IF you want to get to know God better or for your faith to increase, learn from the folks who know God best, his saints. Most have written about God, what they thought about Him, and how He interacted with them.

If we marvel at the great works of nature and the vastness of the universe and realize that God created these things, and how magnificent they are, then we get closer to just how powerful God really is. God’s handiwork is everywhere and in everything. It doesn’t take much to get close to Him. The miracle of life is everywhere, pick up a baby and the sparkle and joy of life is God’s handiwork. IF you want to get closer to God, simply recognize that God is the Creator of all, and simply appreciate that fact.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Building up faith comes from within oneself. I think God gives us the initial grace to believe but we have to build up our faith on our own. WHether we accept the grace of God to believe is up to us. And whether we want to increase our faith is also up to us.

I think we can do so by finding out as much as we can about our faith and about the folks who experienced God’s presence first hand. IF we read about the great miracle workers, their works and their experiences, that becomes building blocks for increasing our own beliefs. If we visit holy sites, and see the bodies of saints perfectly preserved for many years, we see first hand the miracles of God at work. IF you want to get to know God better or for your faith to increase, learn from the folks who know God best, his saints. Most have written about God, what they thought about Him, and how He interacted with them.

If we marvel at the great works of nature and the vastness of the universe and realize that God created these things, and how magnificent they are, then we get closer to just how powerful God really is. God’s handiwork is everywhere and in everything. It doesn’t take much to get close to Him. The miracle of life is everywhere, pick up a baby and the sparkle and joy of life is God’s handiwork. IF you want to get closer to God, simply recognize that God is the Creator of all, and simply appreciate that fact.

AMEN! Wcknight, God is every where, nature is a beautiful thing I was recently sent some pictures of someone going on vacation and i have never left the country. I could not believe the beauty everywhere and suddenly the world became as big and so full of life more then when i was a child i began to see again. Sometimes when we stay in our own little world we forget how Big and wonderful God realy is. God bless Nancy

 

[wcknight]

Thanks Nancy, people either see God everywhere, in everyone, and everything or they miss Him entirely.

It’s no secret that God is within every heart and mind. He exists throughout all of creation. It’s not like He is hiding behind some tree or off in space. IF you want to talk to Him He can hear even the slightest whisper. IF you want to see Him either close your eyes or open them wide to take in all of creation. IF you want to hear Him, simply be silent and listen.

God is talking to us all the time, most times, we are just too busy or too distracted to hear anything He tells us. We already know what God wants of us, we just need to pay attention better. When I hear someone ask for evidence of God’s existence, I’m tempted to say, look all around you. Life and creation is the biggest miracle and proof and evidence that anyone can come up with.

IF you want to see parlor tricks go see a magician. No one can create anything more spectaular than nature or the universe. To witness 2 cells join and grow into an intelligent human being is proof enough for me. No magician can truly make something from nothing, and that is what God did, one massive big bang and there it is !

 

[JMJ_coder]

Like Mother Theresa?

There is a lot about the lives of the saints that we don’t know and Mother Theresa proves this.

Please, I doubt you know anything about what is truly meant by a dark night of the soul – or the depths of the relationship between Blessed Teresa of Calcutta and God.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The paramount request was for more faith.

And what did you expect of your faith? What did you expect God to provide for you?

Only in the last month or two did I ask god to really show himself as proof since my lifetime’s prayers weren’t working.

Again, this doesn’t seem to sync with what your saying here. You claim that you never asked, except at the very end, for such fanciful requests – and yet you claim God never answered such fanciful requests.

It became increasingly so at the later end of my Christian journey, because of the fact that god remained absent and didn’t come to our aid….not to have physical pleasure, but in our quest to just survive catholic marriage and still get to heaven. This became an impossibility and with that the attitude “worsened”, if you wanna call it that. But again, that’s not why we stopped believing.

Still seems like your not being honest – at least with yourself. (no you don’t need to respond to me…but try to answer yourself)

You kinda make it sound like I’m just rebelling against god because I couldn’t have things my way. That’s so totally not the case. If it was, we would have simply moved to another church where the rules were slack and we could choose which to follow.
The journey we were on showed us more and more with our struggles and searchings that there is no god. As we drew closer to that intellectual realization, I did plead and beg and then later request supernatural proof from god to his existence, but after 34 years of praying, my spiritual conclusion seemed only to back up the intellectual one…that god doesn’t exist.

It still sounds like your just blaming God and the Church for your own spiritual weaknesses and not having a “perfect” life.

I wanted to correct you in your assumptions on my life. Thank you.

I don’t see anything here that seriously alters my original thoughts on what you presented.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

HI PenitentMan, You know i love you and you know something else is barthering you, did you doubt God and then follow the steps that lead you to another side of Wisdom? A distant path to destroy your very soul? Were you so doubtful you read things just to prove that there was no God? That there was no sence in praying? Were you searching to find a reason not to believe, and to feel better in how you were living? Your thought’s just didn’t fly out of the sky, something drew you further away from your true love. Take an inventory, a real inventory, then see what you come up with. Love of Christ Nancy