Concept of hell

[PennitentMan]

I have just started to attend to this thread.

Could you share with me from your firm belief and faith in Our Lord that what I can do when I feel that HE has listened to my prayer but despite of the efforts I have made, the matter that worries me remains unchanged? a very vague questoin for your view
thanks
wlychan64

Let me try to reparse it for the guys here:

How do some people keep having faith in the power of prayer when, after you prayed, you feel that god heard your prayer, but the outcome remains the same, even though your prayers requested a different outcome.

I can understand that that may lead you to feel rejected.
I am probably the worst person to answer this, because for me, that was the mails in the coffin. Prayers don’t get answered.

I’ll let the Catholics field this one for you though. This might warrant its own thread to have your question asked in a concise manner though.

PM

 

[PennitentMan]

Thanks - had a great sleep!

I think you’re absolutely right about the discussion. It’s time to shake the proverbial dust from my shoes as commanded by the Lord when a person refuses to hear (Matt. 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5).

See you on the forums . . .

Wow, that’s awesome news!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

God didn’t create hell. We create it ourselves.

Life is what we make it. We can see bars or stars:dancing:

HELL,Deut 32:22, Ps. 9:17, Math. 5:22-29, REV. 1:18 6:8, 20:13-14 and about 30 more places in the Bible. Tell me if There is a Hell and God made all thing’s then why should he not be the maker of Hell? Inquireing minds want to know. God Bless Nancy.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Nancy -
All of these passages have to do with judging and discerning when read in context.

Elvis! I did read them in context, and if anyone would like to ENLIGHTEN me on this more please speak and let me know, sometimes more (name removed by moderator)ut can be better, anyone? Love of Christ Nancy You can gain more BEE"S with Honey, Honey!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

PennitentMan, HI! i was wondering if you ever had a chance to read the book called
HINDS’ FEET ON HIGH PLACES ? by Hanna Hurnard, i just got it today and so far i like it and i was thinking of you, it was recommended by a friend and now i’m recomending it to you.I’m on the 6th chapter and you might find it helpful. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[JMJ_coder]

My Story:

pennitentman.blogspot.com/

Yes, you’ve had some bad times. I’ve been there myself in many of those situations…I know others who have been there, too. But, honestly, it could be far worse.

I still don’t see how the Catholic Church or God, and not your own sinfulness and rejection of God and His Church’s teachings are the cause of your troubles.

I do have a question for you: it seems that what attracted you to the Catholic Church was an aesthetic attraction towards the Liturgy. Did it ever go beyond that? When you claimed to believe, did it go beyond a ‘I better believe or I’ll go to hell’ mentality? Did you believe in your heart that what is on the altar IS Jesus Himself, bowing down and worshiping Him substantially present in the Sacrament?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Elvis! I did read them in context, and if anyone would like to ENLIGHTEN me on this more please speak and let me know, sometimes more (name removed by moderator)ut can be better, anyone? Love of Christ Nancy You can gain more BEE"S with Honey, Honey!

There is a difference between judgment and condemnation. What Jesus admonishes against in Scriptures is against condemnation of others. We are called to correct our brothers errors and warn them that their current behavior and attitudes could lead them to perdition – obviously that is impossible unless we have first judged their actions and attitudes to be in error.

Remember there are three components that determine subjectively the seriousness of a sin:

1. the objective gravity of a sin
2. the knowledge of the sin by the sinner
3. the consent of the will in the light of that knowledge

1 is objective. We can see that stealing money is objectively wrong. We can judge that – and this is the primary area of our judgment of others.

2 is not always known to us. Not everyone knows everything. Maybe the person didn’t know that stealing is wrong. As Father Corapi puts it: “I take that attitude that when I’m done with them they will know”. This is the primary area of our fraternal correction.

3 is only known by the sinner and God. This is why we can’t absolutely condemn others, because we don’t know if they are under duress, have been deceived, etc.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Let me try to reparse it for the guys here:

How do some people keep having faith in the power of prayer when, after you prayed, you feel that god heard your prayer, but the outcome remains the same, even though your prayers requested a different outcome.

I can understand that that may lead you to feel rejected.
I am probably the worst person to answer this, because for me, that was the mails in the coffin. Prayers don’t get answered.

I’ll let the Catholics field this one for you though. This might warrant its own thread to have your question asked in a concise manner though.

PM

Why do you think that every prayer must be answered in the positive? Do you honestly believe that God is there to fulfill our every wish and whim?

Let me pose this scenario:

Two armies are meeting in battle. The commanders of both armies pray earnestly to God that their army be victorious.

Tell me how God should answer if He is meant to answer yes to every prayer:

 

[JMJ_coder]

But then, we get back to the original thread title about the concept of hell. God created hell for souls that disobeys his commands (even though these commands are just hearsay…aka. Tradition).

Would you find it merciful and loving to be forced to forever behold someone you absolutely hated?

 

[PennitentMan]

I do have a question for you: it seems that what attracted you to the Catholic Church was an aesthetic attraction towards the Liturgy. Did it ever go beyond that? When you claimed to believe, did it go beyond a ‘I better believe or I’ll go to hell’ mentality? Did you believe in your heart that what is on the altar IS Jesus Himself, bowing down and worshiping Him substantially present in the Sacrament?

Yes I did, with all my being, I did.

 

[PennitentMan]

Why do you think that every prayer must be answered in the positive? Do you honestly believe that God is there to fulfill our every wish and whim?

Let me pose this scenario:

Two armies are meeting in battle. The commanders of both armies pray earnestly to God that their army be victorious.

Tell me how God should answer if He is meant to answer yes to every prayer:

Well, I don’t believe in god. But no, I understood then that he’s not there to fulfill every wish and whim, I even mentioned that in my blog,
The crux was that there was no correlation between the hardships and goodness in people’s lives and the prayers they prayed. No outcome was changed, no rescue from evil, no nothing. What good does prayer do? It doesn’t change any outcome, it doesn’t change anything.
Good, faithful people implore things from god, good, just, unselfish things for the betterment of a loved one, or something noble, and nothing has ever changed. Things just happen as they do and prayer doesn’t affect the outcome one way or another.
Some call this “god’s will” but it’s nothing more than nature and life taking its course.

So, no matter how hard the two commanders pray, the outcome will be decided by the war itself, no intercessions will help anyone because it never has and ever will, in any scenario.

 

[PennitentMan]

I still don’t see how the Catholic Church or God, and not your own sinfulness and rejection of God and His Church’s teachings are the cause of your troubles.

You don’t? here’s the “nutshell version”
The simple fact is that our troubles came about because we followed the church teachings to the letter. The more we followed it, the deeper we went…nothing helped, no rescue came, no prayers were answered, nothing, just deeper into the dark tunnel.
That’s when we decided to break free and take things into our own hands. This didn’t start from us or our sinfulness. All we did was see that something is wrong and tried to seek help for it.
We were good “catholic” folk, with weekly confessions and the whole 9…at that stage we were in a state of grace, not all the time, but at least after frequent confession. We followed the teachings and the guides to the letter.

There’s the nutshell for you.

 

[davidv]

Well, I don’t believe in god. But no, I understood then that he’s not there to fulfill every wish and whim, I even mentioned that in my blog,
The crux was that there was no correlation between the hardships and goodness in people’s lives and the prayers they prayed.

Why should their be a correlation. I know of no Church teaching that says so or implies this.

No outcome was changed, no rescue from evil, no nothing.

That only appears to apply only to your evaluation of your circumstance and doesn’t admit the opposite in many others’ experience.

What good does prayer do? It doesn’t change any outcome, it doesn’t change anything.

Prayer is supposed to change the one praying, not necessarily their circumstances

Good, faithful people implore things from god, good, just, unselfish things for the betterment of a loved one, or something noble, and nothing has ever changed.

How do you know this? Many experience things that suggest the opposite.

Things just happen as they do and prayer doesn’t affect the outcome one way or another.
Some call this “god’s will” but it’s nothing more than nature and life taking its course.

So, no matter how hard the two commanders pray, the outcome will be decided by the war itself, no intercessions will help anyone because it never has and ever will, in any scenario.

All things are evil to the skeptic.

 

[davidv]

You don’t? here’s the “nutshell version”
The simple fact is that our troubles came about because we followed the church teachings to the letter. The more we followed it, the deeper we went…nothing helped, no rescue came, no prayers were answered, nothing, just deeper into the dark tunnel.
That’s when we decided to break free and take things into our own hands.

Have you considered that your trouble could been even worse had you not been following Church teaching?

This didn’t start from us or our sinfulness.

Has anyone implied that it did?

All we did was see that something is wrong and tried to seek help for it.
We were good “catholic” folk, with weekly confessions and the whole 9…at that stage we were in a state of grace, not all the time, but at least after frequent confession. We followed the teachings and the guides to the letter.

There’s the nutshell for you.

Why would you expect a perfect (in your eyes) resolution to the problem, rather the the strength to endure that which God knew you needed in order to grow closer to Him? You could have taken an example from Jesus, who when face with His immanent crucification prayed like this:

“Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

 

[PennitentMan]

Have you considered that your trouble could been even worse had you not been following Church teaching?

Considered, yes…probable? No. Lookng back, I can most certainly say that we’d have been better off.

Has anyone implied that it did?

Yes.
JMJ Cooler: “I still don’t see how the Catholic Church or God, and not your own sinfulness and rejection of God and His Church’s teachings are the cause of your troubles.”

Elvisman:

a) “Yes, I’m sure that the Catholic Church was directly responsible for all of the tragedy in your life and none of the blame or responsibility rests on you or anybody else.
Hogwash.”
Theer are more from him, but I’m pressed for time at the office today.

Why would you expect a perfect (in your eyes) resolution to the problem, rather than the strength to endure that which God knew you needed in order to grow closer to Him?

Well, you’ve answered your own question there, really. The result, in my eyes, and I assume god’s eyes (if Christian theology is followed) is that he has faithful, loving followers. Any outcome should be that after whatever trial, the follower still loves and follow god, right? This problem’s result was the total lack of faith, even though that was not the intention from our side, and in fact the opposite was true, and we searched and tried to grasp on to it.

 

[davidv]

Considered, yes…probable? No. Lookng back, I can most certainly say that we’d have been better off.

Yes.
JMJ Cooler: “I still don’t see how the Catholic Church or God, and not your own sinfulness and rejection of God and His Church’s teachings are the cause of your troubles.”

Elvisman:

a) “Yes, I’m sure that the Catholic Church was directly responsible for all of the tragedy in your life and none of the blame or responsibility rests on you or anybody else.
Hogwash.”
Theer are more from him, but I’m pressed for time at the office today.

Well, you’ve answered your own question there, really. The result, in my eyes, and I assume god’s eyes (if Christian theology is followed) is that he has faithful, loving followers.

On what basis can you assume the what your eyes see is what God sees?

Any outcome should be that after whatever trial, the follower still loves and follow god, right?

Sounds like you were not willing to wait for the result God intended or would only accept the result you wanted.

This problem’s result was the total lack of faith, even though that was not the intention from our side, and in fact the opposite was true, and we searched and tried to grasp on to it.

Any denial of faith is your choice, not Gods. I know God’s love is steadfast even when mine is not.

What I keep reading between the lines of your responses is the it is all about what you wanted, not necessarily what God willed.

 

[PennitentMan]

On what basis can you assume the what your eyes see is what God sees?

Sounds like you were not willing to wait for the result God intended or would only accept the result you wanted.

I waited as long as I could before I had to save my family.

Any denial of faith is your choice, not Gods. I know God’s love is steadfast even when mine is not.

A denial of faith wasn’t, totally not, I yearned for it…but the ultimate denial in continuing to follow him was totally my choice. For sure!

What I keep reading between the lines of your responses is the it is all about what you wanted, not necessarily what God willed.

Okay, but did you actually understand what it is that I wanted? I wanted a family that follows the lord, but the term “family” implies a marriage between two live people.

 

[davidv]

I waited as long as I could before I had to save my family.

A denial of faith wasn’t, totally not, I yearned for it…but the ultimate denial in continuing to follow him was totally my choice. For sure!

Okay, but did you actually understand what it is that I wanted?** I wanted** a family that follows the lord, but the term “family” implies a marriage between two live people.

This last section illustrates why I responded the way I did. It is very clear what you wanted. On the surface your words seem to indicate this “want” was in line with God’s will. But much the rest of the story suggests the opposite, because you did not get what wanted, when you wanted it.

 

[PennitentMan]

This last section illustrates why I responded the way I did. It is very clear what you wanted. On the surface your words seem to indicate this “want” was in line with God’s will. But much the rest of the story suggests the opposite, because you did not get what wanted, when you wanted it.

I am not going to just going to sit back and watch my family get destroyed. We waited as long as we could…some folks say that we waited too long, because we are still suffering the consequences.
I gave god all the time I had before stepping in. if that wasn’t long enough for him, that goes to prove my point that he probably doesn’t exist in the first place.

 

[PennitentMan]

Wow, I wonder how this went from the concept of hell to my personal relationship and lack thereof with god.

To the OP, I’m sorry for hijacking the thread, but it seems like when an agnostic or atheist post, people want to know why they way things, how they got to these conclusions and how they could fix it.

Sorry for the de-railing!