Concept of hell

[PennitentMan]

PennitentMan,

I’m going to ask you a question, and please stay with me on this, because it may sound tangential, but it’s not… just trust me.

Is your special needs child anything less than perfectly human in your eyes?

i.e., Would you love this child any more than you do right now if this child, which you created, didn’t have special needs?

Honestly, it sounds like a trick question.

The answer is no. I can’t love him more…

Why, where are you headed? Is this entrapment?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

PennitentMan, hello I went to your story, and i read it all and i posted a comment but i did not know where it was going to be posted at so i deleated it. I do see where you are comming from and i feel bad about the whole thing. I have my feeling’s on the issue and i’d rather discuss it off line,if you want? i believe you know how to reach me. God Bless you and your family,for truly in my heart i know you have suffered. May be some should go over the story and read it with feeling instead of condemnation. Cheers Nancy

 

[PennitentMan]

PennitentMan, hello I went to your story, and i read it all and i posted a comment but i did not know where it was going to be posted at so i deleated it. I do see where you are comming from and i feel bad about the whole thing. I have my feeling’s on the issue and i’d rather discuss it off line,if you want? i believe you know how to reach me. God Bless you and your family,for truly in my heart i know you have suffered. May be some should go over the story and read it with feeling instead of condemnation. Cheers Nancy

Hi Nancy,
Thanks for the post

That would be great if you want to chat to me offline.
I’m not too sure I know how to reach you, but I’ll PM you with an e-mail address. I hope that’ll work?

Talk to you soon!
PM.

 

[tm30]

Honestly, it sounds like a trick question.

The answer is no. I can’t love him more…

I know this is probably a very sensiitive area, but please hear me out…

If you love this child unconditionally, regardless of his “imperfections”, would you consider his special needs condition to be reasonable grounds for him to reject, scorn, and walk away from you later in life? Are you prepared for that child to apply to you the same criterion you are applying to God? Would your child be justified - intellectually or emotionally - in throwing away your love over this imperfection? Perhaps casting you as hateful and unfair for bringing him into the world? (remember you can’t tell him it’s God’s fault because you’ve presumably made sure to share your belief that there is no God)

Would your child be better off casting you and your wife aside or accepting the imperfection while enjoying your irreplaceable love? Does your love have the power to transcend those imperfections? WIll your child say to you, “You created me with imperfections, and I suffer in ways others do not, therefore, I declare it to be a fact that you do not love me and never have”?

 

[PennitentMan]

If you love this child unconditionally, regardless of his “imperfections”, would you consider his special needs condition to be reasonable grounds for him to reject, scorn, and walk away from you later in life? Are you prepared for that child to apply to you the same criterion you are applying to God? Would your child be justified - intellectually or emotionally - in throwing away your love over this imperfection? Perhaps casting you as hateful and unfair for bringing him into the world? (remember you can’t tell him it’s God’s fault because you’ve presumably made sure to share your belief that there is no God)

Would your child be better off casting you and your wife aside or accepting the imperfection while enjoying your irreplaceable love? Does your love have the power to transcend those imperfections? WIll your child say to you, “You created me with imperfections, and I suffer in ways others do not, therefore, I declare it to be a fact that you do not love me”?

There is one difference between my situation and the potential one you painted here.

According to Christian theology, God is the creator of everything, not in the same way as my wife and I create a child. He has *direct control *over his creation and how it’s being created. His actions during the creation process has direct consequences.

Whereas with natural law, all my wife and I did was procreate. I had no control over the egg and sperm’s merging, where the chromosomes get paired up. At that stage, if I had control over the merging of chromosome pair #21, and I chose for it to not merge in pairs, but that there are three chromosomes, then sure, he can be upset with me.

I didn’t choose for him to develop with special needs. If I had the choice and still chose to create him in that way, then sure, he will have all the right in the world to act like your scenario dictates, and I’ll have to understand and respect that.

PM

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hello TM30, like i said you realy miss the whole concept of what he is talking about. It is not the love of his child, he realy resents the teaching’s of the churches, he did use the word christians.I myself if i didn’t like the way thing’s were being taught i would leave, but i would go somewhere else.I wouldn’t just stop believing.He loves his children,but feel’s stripped of his rights as a husband,and man. Love of Chrsit Nancy

 

[tm30]

There is one difference between my situation and the potential one you painted here.

According to Christian theology, God is the creator of everything, not in the same way as my wife and I create a child. He has *direct control *over his creation and how it’s being created. His actions during the creation process has direct consequences.

Whereas with natural law, all my wife and I did was procreate. I had no control over the egg and sperm’s merging, where the chromosomes get paired up. At that stage, if I had control over the merging of chromosome pair #21, and I chose for it to not merge in pairs, but that there are three chromosomes, then sure, he can be upset with me.

I didn’t choose for him to develop with special needs. If I had the choice and still chose to create him in that way, then sure, he will have all the right in the world to act like your scenario dictates, and I’ll have to understand and respect that.

PM

But your references to God are irrelevant in this scenario. If God does not exist, He did not create your child. So, if the child were to logically declare you culpable (since you will presumably teach the child that God does not exist), would the child be acting out of wisdom or injustice towards you? How would you prove to your child that your relationship is still valuable - that you are to be trusted and your love believed in? You can’t respond to the child with, “it’s God’s fault and it’s proof that He does not exist”. And I doubt you would say, “There is no God, therefore, we are the cause of your pain and suffering; you have every reasonable right to become a stranger to us.”

So now we have the imperfect NFP. We have an imperfect situation. And we have God who loves you and your wife and children - in spite of your determination to be done with Him and apply the imperfections and suffering as proof that He does not love you. Now look at your situation through the eyes of your child. Would your child be justified in looking at his situation and saying to you, “YOU DON’T LOVE ME”…

 

[tm30]

The answer to the above scenario is that you would say to your child, “Of course I love you! Your misfortunes are part of our imperfect human nature. I love you because you ARE. Not because you are or aren’t perfect.”

You see, the greatest possible misfortune in your son’s life is not his condition. His greatest misfortune would be the rejection of your love. And the greatest misfortune for you would not be the unintended consequences of NFP and the rules against contraception, but rejecting the love of God in reaction to its result.

Remember, the unintended consequence of the Church’s “terrible”, infallible teachings was the birth of a child you love without limit. You’re upset that you exposed yourself to God’s will for you by following the rules, but can you imagine a better life without that child in your life? Yes, there was suffering. Yes, you were pushed and pushed to the brink. But unless you think the child is a curse upon you, then you have God to thank for giving this great blessing to you. God has a plan. Embrace it.

 

[PennitentMan]

Okay, in my first post I addressed the basis of your premise. Now let’s look at the actual scenario itself.

But your references to God are irrelevant in this scenario.

No, in my life right now, god is irrelevant, but not in your scenario, I answered it on the same grounds as you asked the question.

If God does not exist, He did not create your child. So, if the child were to logically declare you culpable (since you will presumably teach the child that God does not exist), would the child be acting out of wisdom or injustice towards you?

In your scenario you stated that if the child comes to me saying that he doesn’t love me anymore because of his disabilities, I could explain to him the way things work and that his feelings are miss-directed. I can’t speak of god because I don’t believe in him….he’s not part of the equation. So, I can (and might have to in real life) explain to my son about how this came to be.
I did not have control over the way it happened. We created him out of love and he is loved as he is. No matter how he turned out, he is loved by us. It’s just the way things are.

But your questions are leading to a comparison between my relationship with god and that of my sons and mine. It’s two different things because of the culpability of the “creator” In God’s case he would be culpable. In man’s case he can’t be….because god can manipulate and choose the outcome, where man can’t.

How would you prove to your child that your relationship is still valuable - that you are to be trusted and your love believed in? You can’t respond to the child with, “it’s God’s fault and it’s proof that He does not exist”. And I doubt you would say, “There is no God, therefore, we are the cause of your pain and suffering; you have every reasonable right to become a stranger to us.”

One would base proof of that on science and research into the field of biology on the subject, statistics, results of surveys, etc. It’s all science and natural processes.

I’m not going to blame god because he doesn’t’ exist. God will never factor into the explanation the child is requesting.

See, your scenario is not drawing a real comparison.

In real life I’m upset with the church because they taught me these things that I believe are man-made. And it was the cause of suffering. It has no bearing on what on with what special needs my child was born.

So now we have the imperfect NFP. We have an imperfect situation.

Well, on this we agree

And we have God who loves you and your wife and children - in spite of your determination to be done with Him and apply the imperfections and suffering as proof that He does not love you. Now look at your situation through the eyes of your child. Would your child be justified in looking at his situation and saying to you, “YOU DON’T LOVE ME”…

No, because the two scenarios are not the same, as per my posts above.

 

[PennitentMan]

The answer to the above scenario is that you would say to your child, “Of course I love you! Your misfortunes are part of our imperfect human nature. I love you because you ARE. Not because you are or aren’t perfect.”

You see, the greatest possible misfortune in your son’s life is not his condition. His greatest misfortune would be the rejection of your love. And the greatest misfortune for you would not be the unintended consequences of NFP and the rules against contraception, but rejecting the love of God in reaction to its result.

This might, might, be true if I was convinced that god actually exists…but he doesn’t.
The plain fact is the church boasts about them speaking for god, especially in scenarios like this, so even if I chose to differentiate between god’s love and the effects of the rules of the church on my life, right after I made that choice, I’ll have to concede that it was god’s rules, right?

I’m not rejecting god’s love per se, I’m rejecting the claim that he is actually there to give love.

Remember, the unintended consequence of the Church’s “terrible”, infallible teachings was the birth of a child you love without limit. You’re upset that you exposed yourself to God’s will for you by following the rules, but can you imagine a better life without that child in your life? Yes, there was suffering. Yes, you were pushed and pushed to the brink. But unless you think the child is a curse upon you, then you have God to thank for giving this great blessing to you. God has a plan. Embrace it.

The truth is that we would have had kids anyway. We planned them, but honestly, give us some time to get settled in a new country and get more than minimum wage jobs before giving us one miscarriage, and two kids, one with special needs. The fact that we have kids at this stage is a result of church teachings, but the life we imagined was going to have kids in it.

The fact that we were forced into a scenario that almost cost us the framework in which to raise the kids are wrong and totally irresponsible. That’s my point, one that I stated in my story too.
“God has a plan” is a Christian statement. It’s really just their way of stating that nature will turn out in a specific way and we can’t sway that outcome. Well, I should correct myself. Every action we make each day determines the long and short term outcome in life. Some things we can sway, like us taking our lives back from the hold of the church and changing things for the better. Other things you can’t change, like how and with what your child will be born. Certain things we need to accept and live with, as a part of the structures and natural laws that we are surrounded with.
If you want to view that as “God’s plan” then go for it, that’s your choice.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I read the entire post. What I found was somebody extremely lacking faith in God, then blaming the Church for all of his pain.

**I saw a person who cut himself off **from God’s mercy, then expected God to come to him - on his terms, not God’s.

YOO! If we are to be Christ like, and do as the Master did, then we should do all things with love, kindness and gentilness,Jesus was a lamb and he spoke with love and he forgave the prostitute, He for 3 years spoke on being judgemental,and on forgiveness, and drew people unto himself. But the greatest of these is Love! God Bless Nancy

 

[CHRISTINE77]

This might, might, be true if I was convinced that god actually exists…but he doesn’t.
The plain fact is the church boasts about them speaking for god, especially in scenarios like this, so even if I chose to differentiate between god’s love and the effects of the rules of the church on my life, right after I made that choice, I’ll have to concede that it was god’s rules, right?

I’m not rejecting god’s love per se, I’m rejecting the claim that he is actually there to give love.

The truth is that we would have had kids anyway. We planned them, but honestly, give us some time to get settled in a new country and get more than minimum wage jobs before giving us one miscarriage, and two kids, one with special needs. The fact that we have kids at this stage is a result of church teachings, but the life we imagined was going to have kids in it.

The fact that we were forced into a scenario that almost cost us the framework in which to raise the kids are wrong and totally irresponsible. That’s my point, one that I stated in my story too.
“God has a plan” is a Christian statement. It’s really just their way of stating that nature will turn out in a specific way and we can’t sway that outcome. Well, I should correct myself. Every action we make each day determines the long and short term outcome in life. Some things we can sway, like us taking our lives back from the hold of the church and changing things for the better. Other things you can’t change, like how and with what your child will be born. Certain things we need to accept and live with, as a part of the structures and natural laws that we are surrounded with.
If you want to view that as “God’s plan” then go for it, that’s your choice.

Sounds like you have more problems with the dictates of the Catholic Church, rather than God. I would just pick another church that is less dogmatic that the Catholic Church about birth control. I think the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church with such strict rules. God is forgiving, God loves you and your wife and your children.

 

[elvisman]

YOO! If we are to be Christ like, and do as the Master did, then we should do all things with love, kindness and gentilness,Jesus was a lamb and he spoke with love and he forgave the prostitute, He for 3 years spoke on being judgemental,and on forgiveness, and drew people unto himself. But the greatest of these is Love! God Bless Nancy

I call’em as I see’em.
We are to judge a person’s fruits and the fruits he has born are faithlessness and bitterness.

 

[elvisman]

You saw all that? Wow…but then you also see an invisible man and hear voices…

Dude, can’t you see that I don’t care what you think? You asked, you challenged, you mocked me in order for me to give you my reasons…I did. That’s it. I don’t care what you think of them, it’s not making a difference…in fact, folks like tm30 and nancydalrymle’s demeanor is why I come here some times, at least there is mutual respect and a change for open debate and reasoning. Not so with folks like you.
You seem genuinely angry at us. At anyone who don’t subscribe to the same precepts that you do. Your posts cry out “How dare you? How dare you come here and write what you did!”
When you are a bit more relaxed about life, you may see that these kind of things are good for debating, for communication, for exploring and understanding…right now you just seem angry at everyone who questions or doesn’t subscribe to your faith.

It’s okay though, I can take it, my skin is think and I really don’t care about your opinion.
So, have a great day Mr. Elvisman!

All thanks to God - I’m having a spectacular day!

 

[PennitentMan]

Sounds like you have more problems with the dictates of the Catholic Church, rather than God. I would just pick another church that is less dogmatic that the Catholic Church about birth control. I think the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church with such strict rules. God is forgiving, God loves you and your wife and your children.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that the catholic church is the one true church? Do you believe that the pope is the vicar of Christ on earth? Do you believe that the church teachings on faith and morals are infallible and the true word of god? Do you believe that when the pope teaches on faith and morals he teaches infallibly and is speaking “in persona Christi”?

Well, we did. Wholeheartedly and blindly. For us church = god. (past tense). Without anything else that happened on this walk of ours, and the evidence that’s not there….how do you even begin to change churches if the pinnacle of Christianity is so far flawed?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that the catholic church is the one true church? Do you believe that the pope is the vicar of Christ on earth? Do you believe that the church teachings on faith and morals are infallible and the true word of god? Do you believe that when the pope teaches on faith and morals he teaches infallibly and is speaking “in persona Christi”?

Well, we did. Wholeheartedly and blindly. For us church = god. (past tense). Without anything else that happened on this walk of ours, and the evidence that’s not there….how do you even begin to change churches if the pinnacle of Christianity is so far flawed?

Well, I think you need to understand that God loves you unconditionally and I think He loves all those that love him, and love their neighbor as themselves. That’s what Jesus said. I don’t remember anything Jesus said related to birth control. The Catholic Church may not be infallible, I admit I sometimes pick and choose what I want out of it. I know some people think that’s awful, but I really think God loves all of his Christian children and he wants them to be happy.

 

[PennitentMan]

Well, I think you need to understand that God loves you unconditionally and I think He loves all those that love him, and love their neighbor as themselves.
That’s what Jesus said. I don’t remember anything Jesus said related to birth control. The Catholic Church may not be infallible, I admit I sometimes pick and choose what I want out of it. I know some people think that’s awful, but I really think God loves all of his Christian children and he wants them to be happy.

Thanks Christine I understand where you are coming from. But, you are speaking to me as if you assume I believe in god. I don’t. so, god’s love towards me is inconsequential. I do the best with my life, live a good, honest, law abiding life for myself and my family. It’s within my power now. And from that point of view, I’m happy now. I’m really happy with my life. If that coincides with god’s wishes, then that’s great, but I do it for me and my family.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Thanks Christine I understand where you are coming from. But, you are speaking to me as if you assume I believe in god. I don’t. so, god’s love towards me is inconsequential. I do the best with my life, live a good, honest, law abiding life for myself and my family. It’s within my power now. And from that point of view, I’m happy now. I’m really happy with my life. If that coincides with god’s wishes, then that’s great, but I do it for me and my family.

Well, God bless you anyway. You sound like a very sensitive, good person and I’m glad your life is going well. I hope someday you will change your mind about God.

 

[PennitentMan]

Well, God bless you anyway. You sound like a very sensitive, good person and I’m glad your life is going well. I hope someday you will change your mind about God.

Thanks Christine, I appreciate the sentiments

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Christine77 Where have you been? you are so right, it is the dogmatic’s of the church not God but I thnk there is alot repair to be done and time takes time. i’m so glad someone realy read his story and understood, his issue is with the man made rules not his son.I to feel his frustration and agree he should go to another church and not quit believing. Thank You Love of Christ Nancy “Love one an other as i have Loved you”