Concept of hell

[elvisman]

Oh, I see. Sorry, I miss-understood.

Then yes, I was. It’s simple deduction. If the church and the bible teaches something is wrong, but god does it…

OH - I get it.
It really bothers you that you can’t equate yourself with God. It bothers you that God has certain rights and privileges that you don’t.

Well - when you create a universe - you can have jurisdiction.

 

[PennitentMan]

How could he have caused it if he doesn’t exist?

Ooooh, smartypants, eh?

I’m stating thing here in a certain way for the sake of your theology and understanding….maybe I should start drawing pictures, maybe it’ll be clearer?
See? I can also do smartypants

 

[PennitentMan]

This thread is turning real nasty now…It seems like the “debate” is over and now it’s down to getting dirty. I’ll be back when things have simmered down.

 

[elvisman]

This thread is turning real nasty now…It seems like the “debate” is over and now it’s down to getting dirty. I’ll be back when things have simmered down.

I think that the only thing ugly about this thread is that you’ve spewed a lot of bitterness and false accusations and haven’t been able to back them up.
Until you can - maybe it’s a good thing that you back off.

BUT - if you want to have a charitable conversation - let’s have one.

 

[tm30]

This thread is turning real nasty now…It seems like the “debate” is over and now it’s down to getting dirty. I’ll be back when things have simmered down.

I went back and looked at all your posts, so I know why you left the Church, and speaking as someone who doesn’t have to worry about NFP because he suffers from the nearly complete inability to have children you need to get the chip off your shoulder, be a man, pick up your cross, and CARRY IT. If it hurts too much - KEEP CARRYING IT!

Is life easy?? NO.
Is it fair?? NO.

I walked through ABSOLUTE HELL in my marriage. The threat of separation and divorce came up REGULARLY. But I didn’t blame God. I didn’t leave the Church in a snit because it doesn’t allow for IVF. We suffered mightily and with enough tears and venom and unbridled anger directed at each other that it’s only through the miraculous intervention of St. Rita and our constant prayers that we not only stayed married, but are BEYOND happy. We still have no children but we gained EACH OTHER - not because we turned to science or “what everyone else is doing” - because WE TURNED TO GOD and kept turning to him - even though EVERYONE who knew us - our family, our friends - just KNEW we were going to divorce at some point over this. God made me scrape and crawl and anguish and weep for EVERY SINGLE CENTIMETER of His mercy and He found us worthy because WE NEVER GAVE UP and we NEVER BLAMED HIM for our troubles. We kicked and kicked and kicked the darkness until it BLED DAYLIGHT.

So go back to your priest, and talk it out. God has BIG plans for you, or you wouldn’t be here. He will work WONDERS through your weakness. So don’t pass up His mercy just because you don’t like the package it arrives in. If God allows me to have brain cancer, go broke, and die bleeding to death in a ditch somewhere, then PRAISE GOD!

And know that you always ALWAYS have friends and support here.

 

[PennitentMan]

I think that the only thing ugly about this thread is that you’ve spewed a lot of bitterness and false accusations and haven’t been able to back them up.
**Until you can - maybe it’s a good **thing that you back off.

BUT - if you want to have a charitable conversation - let’s have one.

Perhaps some bitterness. False accusations? I explained each of my statements…

Sure, let’s have a civil discussion…

 

[elvisman]

Perhaps some bitterness. False accusations? I explained each of my statements…

Sure, let’s have a civil discussion…

Well - for starters:
Post #55:

I’m claiming that god’s punishment to adam and eve is the cause of the suffering in the world.

Post #23:

So the “greater good” would include divorce, broken family and suicide? Because as a direct result of following church teachings as best we could, that was going to be the outcome…until we stepped in and fixed things ourselves when we realized that neither the church nor god himself would do it.

No, god doesn’t answer, he’s not there…people read situations and events and if they correlate with their hopes, then “their prayers were answered” otherwise “God is saying no, or later”
Post #16:

Looking at the creation account, he created people, intentionally causing them to fall, or at the very least knowing they will fall even before he created them, but still going ahead, knowing what punishment he would inflict upon them, but still doing it anyway, and the reason he went ahead was because he wants to save our souls(as many as he can) but he caused the suffering of the rest of the world…that’s evil for the purpose of good.

Do you want more examples?
Genocide? (Slaughtering entire nations for the sake of the Israelites) Evil
Slavery? Evil
Coercion? (Pharaoh’s hardening of heart) Evil
Incest? (Lot’s daughters) Evil
Adultery? (David) Evil

The list goes on.
I’ll wait for your response.

 

[PennitentMan]

Well - for starters:
Post #55:

Post #23:

Post #16:

I’ll wait for your response.

Yes, those are my statements, all explained as I see them and understand and (logically) interpret the theology.

Did you want me to repeat my thoughts? You copied them all…How would you like me to respond here?

 

[PennitentMan]

tm30:

Thanks for the PM! I do appreciate it.

I’m working to getting back to you, but Im quite busy at work on top of this forum, so I’m running into some time issues. I’ll respond as soon as I can.

 

[elvisman]

Yes, those are my statements, all explained as I see them and understand and (logically) interpret the theology.

Did you want me to repeat my thoughts? You copied them all…How would you like me to respond here?

In post #16 - you said the following. I will post your false accusations in Red:
*Looking at the creation account, he created people, intentionally causing them to fall, or at the very least knowing they will fall even before he created them, but still going ahead, knowing what punishment he would inflict upon them, but still doing it anyway, and the reason he went ahead was because he wants to save our souls(as many as he can) but he caused the suffering of the rest of the world…that’s evil for the purpose of good.

Do you want more examples?
Genocide? (Slaughtering entire nations for the sake of the Israelites) Evil
Slavery? Evil
Coercion? (Pharaoh’s hardening of heart) Evil
Incest? (Lot’s daughters) Evil
Adultery? (David) Evil*

You simply don’t understand the concept of God, so you rebel against him.
You say that because he knows where you’re going to go wrong - he is the author of evil.
If I am an automaker and KNOW that a certain number of people will die in my cars because of their carelessness - does that make ME the author of evil?
Don’t be ridiculous.

You fail to understand that we have a free will. Sure, he knows what we chose to do but he loves us enough to allow us make that choice.

As I stated before - God doesn’t drag you kicking and screaming into Heaven against your will anymore than he sends you kicking and screaming into Hell against your will. YOU choose it - not God.

You have NEVER explained your comments in post #23:
“So the “greater good” would include divorce, broken family and suicide? Because as a direct result of following church teachings as best we could, that was going to be the outcome”

**HOW did following the Church teachings directly result in catastrophe for you?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Dear PennentMan,
YOU SAID
“Sure I’m angry. I’m angry that I wasted such a long time of my life on this…It’s not self pity, I’m very happy with my life now.
I’m not necessarily want anyone to agree with me, I’m sure I’m not going to cause anyone to abandon his faith, but I find it interesting to engage in these conversations, knowing what I did and do now.”
ACTS 20:25 JESUS SAID:
Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men.For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be sheperds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. ( Dont worry about us abandoning our faith, for we know he will never leave us nor forsake us!) Think! Love of Christ Nancy

 

[JMJ_coder]

Perhaps some bitterness. False accusations? I explained each of my statements…

Sure, let’s have a civil discussion…

Yes, those are my statements, all explained as I see them and understand and (logically) interpret the theology.

Did you want me to repeat my thoughts? You copied them all…How would you like me to respond here?

You didn’t explain any of your statements. You made accusations without any supporting evidence. You claim, more-or-less, that by following Church teachings and God’s moral code that your life was being ruined, but you didn’t explain how that was happening (e.g., how did the Church cause your divorce, broken family, etc.).

 

[PennitentMan]

You have NEVER explained your comments in post #23:
“So the “greater good” would include divorce, broken family and suicide? Because as a direct result of following church teachings as best we could, that was going to be the outcome”

HOW did following the Church teachings directly result in catastrophe for you?

So, the only point you actually have is a statement I made on my own life…percious…

It’s a long story, and by reading my posts on this forum you’ll get the picture.

 

[PennitentMan]

You didn’t explain any of your statements. You made accusations without any supporting evidence. You claim, more-or-less, that by following Church teachings and God’s moral code that your life was being ruined, but you didn’t explain how that was happening (e.g., how did the Church cause your divorce, broken family, etc.).

Okay gang…y’all are asking, so I’ll set up a blog page and post my story there. it’s too long for this thread…I’ll post the link ASAP.

 

[PennitentMan]

My Story:

pennitentman.blogspot.com/

 

[elvisman]

My Story:

pennitentman.blogspot.com/

After reading your story - I realize that my earlier depictions of your being a whiner are substantiated.

First of all - your problem was not that god abandoned you or that he doesn’t exist. It’s that you didn’t trust God at all. **
When Sarah became pregnant with Isaac – she and Abraham were shocked because of her age. She was most probably post-menopausal (well into her 70’s) but they saw the child as a gift from God.
Unfortunately, you see them as punishments – like our illustrious President does.**

---

Secondly – you misrepresent the Church on many levels. You say that Papal infallibility is a new teaching because it was proclaimed dogma in the 19th century. What you don’t understand is the when a belief is proclaimed dogma – it doesn’t mean that it is a new revelation. It means that it is officially proclaimed because of a heresy, abuse or schism.
It is something that the Church has always taught but feels should be officially proclaimed for one of those reasons.

---

You say that if you faltered in any area, the Church claims that you would be damned to hell unless you went to confession. This is TOTALLY false. The church teaches that only mortal sin and impenitence would be the cause for eternal damnation. Simply “faltering” or even “venial sin” is not the cause of eternal damnation.

---

You claimed you prayed to God to strengthen your faith – AFTER deciding to go back to contraception and God didn’t answer your prayers. You were in mortal sin and impenitent, and couldn’t understand why God wasn’t helping you. You can’t have it both ways. You must believe on GOD’S terms – not yours. You cut yourself off from him, yet blamed him because he didn’t answer your prayers.

---

Finally, your attack on the Scriptures is not only an old one – it’s inaccurate.
There is no “proof” that Mark’s Gospel is the first. Many scholars believe it was Matthew’s because of its obvious use of Aramaic and not Greek. Eusebius, who did not have the final word anyway, so your comments on Eusebius are moot.

---

Your entire saga begins with a superficial understanding of the Church and ends with a tragic lack of faith. Like I said before – blame yourself – not God.

 

[PennitentMan]

elvisman:
You obviously didn’t read the whole post, but skimmed it with serious pre-conceived notions. Just the fact that you say that I view my children as punishments seem to confirm that already. That’s fine, I expected that.

Well, I expected these kind of comments from you….judging by your previous posts. No matter, you asked, I answered.

 

[elvisman]

You obviously didn’t read the whole post, but skimmed it with serious pre-conceived notions. Just the fact that you say that I view my children as punishments seem to confirm that already. That’s fine, I expected that.

Well, I expected these kind of comments from you….judging by your previous posts. No matter, you asked, I answered.

I read the entire post. What I found was somebody extremely lacking faith in God, then blaming the Church for all of his pain.

I saw a person who cut himself off from God’s mercy, then expected God to come to him - on his terms, not God’s.

 

[PennitentMan]

I read the entire post. What I found was somebody extremely lacking faith in God, then blaming the Church for all of his pain.

I saw a person who cut himself off from God’s mercy, then expected God to come to him - on his terms, not God’s.

You saw all that? Wow…but then you also see an invisible man and hear voices…

Dude, can’t you see that I don’t care what you think? You asked, you challenged, you mocked me in order for me to give you my reasons…I did. That’s it. I don’t care what you think of them, it’s not making a difference…in fact, folks like tm30 and nancydalrymle’s demeanor is why I come here some times, at least there is mutual respect and a change for open debate and reasoning. Not so with folks like you.
You seem genuinely angry at us. At anyone who don’t subscribe to the same precepts that you do. Your posts cry out “How dare you? How dare you come here and write what you did!”
When you are a bit more relaxed about life, you may see that these kind of things are good for debating, for communication, for exploring and understanding…right now you just seem angry at everyone who questions or doesn’t subscribe to your faith.

It’s okay though, I can take it, my skin is think and I really don’t care about your opinion.
So, have a great day Mr. Elvisman!

 

[tm30]

PennitentMan,

I’m going to ask you a question, and please stay with me on this, because it may sound tangential, but it’s not… just trust me.

Is your special needs child anything less than perfectly human in your eyes?

i.e., Would you love this child any more than you do right now if this child, which you created, didn’t have special needs?