Concepts that lead to God

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Dameedna said:
Hey all,

I have a question for the people on this board, but it is a hard one to phrase so hopefully this makes sense.

This questioning has come from another thread, that indicated that as a materialist I make the assumption there is nothing more than the material. The real question then for people like me, is why would I make the assumption otherwise since that’s all the universe(and my sensory (name removed by moderator)ut devices) show me.

I would like to know what concepts, thoughts, ideas led you to concieve of a possibility of a God(and not just an infinite, impersonal universe in one form or another). I’m not going to ask for any specific answers(with intent), however I’m hoping something more than “The bible is the word of God, therefore it is accruate therefore God exists” kind of ideas. If you want to share that, then it’s fine, but it’s not really personal to the individual.

I’m looking more for ideas outside of a specific religion, and I’m not looking for proofs. Just what may have gotten you thinking about it.

Since this is a question, and not an attempt to begin an argument or try and convince people of my views I’ll share some thoughts I have that make me question. I’m agnostic(or label me really what you want, I’m not religious lets just say that), and there are a few ideas or concepts that make me question enough so that I’m not entirely sure of my athiestish views. So here’s mine.
  1. The universe itself. As much as it can or could be in the future explained by a “theory” of everything I’m still not sure this theory would suffice. It is the very simple fact that the universe exists that makes me stand a little bit in awe of it all and makes me question the absolute nature of my own existance. Doesn’t mean anything really, but it does make me stand back and take another look.
  2. Qualities of the universe - I can attribute certain qualities to the universe(I think) one being it’s capacity to create life. I accept the concept that since it did create life, it couldn’t be any other way again making the quality meaningless. BUT, I can’t get around the fact that life was still created and the universe appears to be rather primed for it(along with lifes desctruction as well)
  3. Within this capacity to create life, it creates a self-aware form of life(Humans, at the very minimum). A by-product most likely of it’s life-giving properties…but…we are still self-aware aren’t we? This makes me question.
  4. Knowlege - This is a bit more of a tricky one, because knowlege could really just be subjective to humans. Are there actual laws, or do we just percieve laws to make sense of things. That’s a possibility, but within this universe there is such refinement and extrodinary “luck” as to make it seem, that the universe is knowlege itself, rather than we have knowledge. It’s almost a paradoxical concept.
Anyway, as I said I’m a firm un-believer and I’m not really looking for anyone’s “proof” and would prefer people refrain from trying to convince me of anything . I just would like to hear your ideas.

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers
Dame 🙂

P.S If you want to share on what has occured that convinces you there’s nothing more to the universe, that’s fine too if you’d like, but it’s not the point of the post 🙂
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Love
 
Dameedna said:
I guess my post was about asking you why you think this, or feel this way.

I wasn’t asking what you believed, but what lead you to it. 🙂
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The Existential Ramification Of Being.

“I refuse to exist otherwise.”

This leads to us to an interesting concept (Besides my possible delusion of God). When I was an Atheist/Agnostic, I took things for granted. The world was physical; and at most, i didn’t believe in anything that i couldn’t manipulate in some way or see with my five senses. It took the concept of God, as well as pain, in order for me to start questioning reality. For if everything is merely an expression of pure energy, then it seems curious to me that I, as a product, should desire more then I contain, or be more then that which cloths my being.

A very strong line is drawn between the personal and the impersonal; and we all feel its discriminating un-ending Gaze upon our being. It seems that we cannot live by bread alone. We invent things, we produce fantasy, and we look beyond the impersonal in various ways in order to express our greatest desires; our dreams and our virtues. We could not cope otherwise; and yet we take for granted that many aspects of our world are alien to us. Who could truly live, or be sain, if one was to tell ones self everyday that life is worthless? Nobody; and for that reason, nobody is truly an Atheist. We all walk down the street telling ourselves that we our valuable, that we are worth something, that life is worth living, that we our somebody, that we deserve respect; and then we invent systems of belief and myth—whether that be political or religious—in order to bring about and impose upon the impersonal world, that which we think best expresses our dignity. We all practice “transcendent philosophy”. This is what we take for granted. We are a race of believers, and we often spin webs of myth and even deceit in order to insure that our personal dignity can remain secure—for with out God, all we have is our ego. Much worse, is that we spend our time in the limbo of contradiction, accusing each other of fantasy and Myth, hoping that our personal brain-child might reign supreme.
The ultimate “meme”.

So yes; God could be a fantasy; but that’s a sad psychological fact about all human beings. Every thing that matters to us is a lie. Then again; God could be real; and that seductive idea about us being worthless, could just be a negative manifestation of the human condition. There is such a thing as irrational doubt if we are insecure enough. In any case, it seems that we are more then the some of our parts, and we are outraged when we are reduced to mere energy and treated as mere objects. We all are; whether we are atheists or theists. It’s almost instinctual to reject “naturalism”; at least when it boils down to the social implications of it dicipline. And yet; an object is what we are if energy is all there is to it.

There is a mysterious cloud that surrounds the nature of being a person. When I look upon my self and contemplate my self; I cannot help but ask a question. When considering our personal nature; our desiring, are will to be creative, our will to love, and even our will to hate, I ask my self, “what does that say about the ultimate root of my reality?” Can I really reduce the personal to the impersonal? Or is there something greater in our midsts? That is the Question that preoccupies us all. Some of us choose to believe that there is in fact something greater.

I think we are justified to think so.

Peace & God bless.
 
I think that’s a great question.
So, what makes me think there’s a God?
Life is unfair. It’s sad, tragic and often downright brutal.
But people somehow THINK it shouldn’t be like that. And then they actually DO things to try to make it better.
Why would we think that? Where would this idea come from that life SHOULDN’T be unfair, sad and tragic? Why would we ever expect anything different? Why, when a child is dying of leukemia do people say ‘That’s not right’? How could it not be right? We’re simply cogs in the biological machine. Things aren’t right or wrong. They simply are.
Unless.

Unless we are MORE than biological cogs in the machine. Unless there is an idea of Good that is stamped on us. Unless we have some inherent desire for good. And, where else could that have come from? Our parents? Pfft. I don’t know about you all, but I didn’t listen to one word, not ONE my parents said. Society? Pfft. Society says eat the weak. Story books? Pfft. I don’t believe in Cinderella, elves, or unicorns, yet somehow I do understand this idea of goodness.

And, why do people do good things with no expectation of future repayment? People say they do it because that’s what they would want for themselves. And to that I say, so what? What you do for others doesn’t always come back to you. We know that. So, that line doesn’t hold water with me. People say it goes back to evolutionary biology - we want to protect the herd. But, why would a person, with a good life and a good job, a wife and three kids, risk his life to save another’s? that’s certainly no way to ensure that your genetics get passed on. And why does it make people feel SO good to do those things? Have you ever done something kind and purposely hid yourself from your well-deserved recognition? Why did you do it? Did it make you feel good? Why? Why does giving of yourself lead to such deep satisfaction? The only conclusion that I can reach is to believe that doing such things is a fulfillment of our very souls.
 
yellowbicycle said:
I think that’s a great question.
So, what makes me think there’s a God?
Life is unfair. It’s sad, tragic and often downright brutal.
But people somehow THINK it shouldn’t be like that.
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That’s the main reason most of the people I grew up with believed in gods. Gods were like judges or superheroes that would swoop in and set things straight. In retrospect they were being triumphalistic because they perceived themselves to be somehow better than another person or group.
 
crowonsnow said:
That’s the main reason most of the people I grew up with believed in gods. Gods were like judges or superheroes that would swoop in and set things straight. In retrospect they were being triumphalistic because they perceived themselves to be somehow better than another person or group.
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Wow! It’s amazing how different the world is from place to place on this sphere called Earth, isn’t it? I never perceived anything like that and I was an atheist during my younger years.

God bless you,
JD
 
wcknight,
One of the most enigmatic insights these days is that the universe we know is just 4% of the universe that seems to be there. Because all the rest we call Dark Energy and Dark matter, by lack of better words, and looking at the present shape of the universe.

In general,

God, gods, spirits… NO gods, God, spirits…
It’s all a matter of history of mankind, how it evolved, from the hunter-gatherer until now, full of people asking questions, on What and Why.

There are no Certainties, there are no Truths, there is only… No.
We are, aren’t we? Looking around, increasingly baffled, by what we see, grasp, we think.
It’s us, on the edge of comprehension, and really not understanding… anything.
Because it’s such a great thing… we apparently are part of.
Over my head. Way over my head.

This whole business of atheists and theists, their relentless, vibrant, non-stop discussion.
While out there… This mystery evolves. Is there. Doing its thing. In a way… We don’t understand. But are wondered by. And giving the all over impression… That it is important, that it has meaning, and that it certainly will go on… Long after… While I’m not there. While we are not there.

I’m an artist. And I say: This is art! Beyond art! Great art!
I don’t know what’s going on, for sure.
But it’s definitely something.
Something big, important, significant.
 
Dameedna said:
Hey all,

I have a question for the people on this board, but it is a hard one to phrase so hopefully this makes sense.

This questioning has come from another thread, that indicated that as a materialist I make the assumption there is nothing more than the material. The real question then for people like me, is why would I make the assumption otherwise since that’s all the universe(and my sensory (name removed by moderator)ut devices) show me.

I would like to know what concepts, thoughts, ideas led you to concieve of a possibility of a God(and not just an infinite, impersonal universe in one form or another). I’m not going to ask for any specific answers(with intent), however I’m hoping something more than “The bible is the word of God, therefore it is accruate therefore God exists” kind of ideas. If you want to share that, then it’s fine, but it’s not really personal to the individual.

I’m looking more for ideas outside of a specific religion, and I’m not looking for proofs. Just what may have gotten you thinking about it.

Since this is a question, and not an attempt to begin an argument or try and convince people of my views I’ll share some thoughts I have that make me question. I’m agnostic(or label me really what you want, I’m not religious lets just say that), and there are a few ideas or concepts that make me question enough so that I’m not entirely sure of my athiestish views. So here’s mine.
  1. The universe itself. As much as it can or could be in the future explained by a “theory” of everything I’m still not sure this theory would suffice. It is the very simple fact that the universe exists that makes me stand a little bit in awe of it all and makes me question the absolute nature of my own existance. Doesn’t mean anything really, but it does make me stand back and take another look.
  2. Qualities of the universe - I can attribute certain qualities to the universe(I think) one being it’s capacity to create life. I accept the concept that since it did create life, it couldn’t be any other way again making the quality meaningless. BUT, I can’t get around the fact that life was still created and the universe appears to be rather primed for it(along with lifes desctruction as well)
  3. Within this capacity to create life, it creates a self-aware form of life(Humans, at the very minimum). A by-product most likely of it’s life-giving properties…but…we are still self-aware aren’t we? This makes me question.
  4. Knowlege - This is a bit more of a tricky one, because knowlege could really just be subjective to humans. Are there actual laws, or do we just percieve laws to make sense of things. That’s a possibility, but within this universe there is such refinement and extrodinary “luck” as to make it seem, that the universe is knowlege itself, rather than we have knowledge. It’s almost a paradoxical concept.
Anyway, as I said I’m a firm un-believer and I’m not really looking for anyone’s “proof” and would prefer people refrain from trying to convince me of anything . I just would like to hear your ideas.

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers
Dame 🙂

P.S If you want to share on what has occured that convinces you there’s nothing more to the universe, that’s fine too if you’d like, but it’s not the point of the post 🙂
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When I was in college, I became, for a time, an agnostic. Shortly thereafter, I became a vehement atheist. I had heard about such things as “out of body experiences”, but, had only had one - at least that’s what I called it - and it was self-induced. I stood in front of a mirror and held my breath for as long as I could (I was a swimmer, in those days, so it wasn’t so unusual).

Well, I passed out. It was at the moment of losing consciousness (or shortly thereafter) that I saw myself both standing and lying on the floor. I found myself looking down at my body from above, including a mark on my forehead that resulted from hitting the counter when I fell.

When I woke up (a few minutes later) I was on the floor in the approximate position I had seen myself in. I say “approximate” because I had moved a bit before becoming fully conscious.

When I picked myself up and looked in the mirror I realized that I had seen the mark on my head exactly as I had seen it while looking down at myself.

Several years later, I found myself alone in my house, looking out at a pristine, sunlit day, sipping a cup of tea. There were no sounds in the house. There was a slight motion of the shrubs and trees outside the window I was sort of looking out of. Then, I noticed a beam of light that must have been coming through an opening in the leaf cover of the large tree standing next to the house.

As I concentrated on the remarkable beauty of all of this, time stopped. The motion of the shrubs and trees stopped. The dust in the light beam stopped. I left my body and stood behind me, looking at me and the subjects of my concentration. Since there was no motion, there was essentially no time, but, I know I witnessed the scene for a “while”.

When I came around, I suddenly realized that there was something more to all of this than simply the material world and universe. I knew that there was something static and immutable in the universe. I also realized that all was not just what my senses brought to my mind.

At some later time, a group of fellow students were discussing OOBE’s with my English Lit professor. Without suggestion; without statement; without any kind of encouragement, I made an instant decision to study more “religion”, and especially, Catholicism. All this in the light of knowing that my soul was that static brought me home.

A year or two later, as I studied Aquinas, the catechism, theology and philosophy I understood that I had made a sound decision. In my case, it took two experiences to light that fire under me.

God bless,
JD
 
During my lapse, I read a lot of books on life after death, dying, and related issues. A couple of books by Dr. Moody and Shirley Maclane (sp?) and others were particularly interesting. It was years later that I heard from 3 friends who had ‘near death’ experiences or who had close loved ones that had NDE.

At time, my doubts about the whole spiritual realm needed resolution. IF there is nothing after death, then what’s the point ? Do we just live for 90 or 100 years and then we just cease to exist ? That’s not good enough.

Dr. Moody’s books were an answer to a prayer. Here was someone researching whether anyone had experienced anything after clinical death or "near death’. That a co-worker telling me about her mom visiting her after her mom died. This was sufficient for me to reaccess my beliefs.
 
The problem is, naturalism isn’t a sufficient explanation. Scientific explanations of everything are very shallow and are limited in describing reality in all its respects; and therefore are less likely to be true. People put way to much into Science and do not respect its true capacities.

Given this fact, am i expected to think that there was an energy fluxation out of nothing by nothing, and then billions of years down the line, I AM, with feelings, dreams, aspirations, hopes, fears, envies, jelousys, moral sensibility, personality and sex!

It does not add up.

2+2=4 not Ten!
 
Dameedna said:
Hey all,

I’m looking more for ideas outside of a specific religion, and I’m not looking for proofs. Just what may have gotten you thinking about it.

Dameedna
I am intrigued by your request to know why believers believe in God. To completely honor your request would result in a post much longer than any I have seen so far, but I will offer three experiences that got me “thinking about it”.
  1. I married a young lady 51 years ago, who epitomized the efficacy and value of faith in God. Her elegant demeanor, radiant beauty both external and internal, deep morals, and *joie de vivre *transcended the very difficult set of circumstances she had recently lived through. Her father had left the family in poverty six years earlier, and her mother died at the age of 42, at home, in an agonizing death from cancer, a month before we first dated. Throughout the ordeal, she maintained her dignity, while holding the family together, while raising her two youngest brothers. I realized what gave her the strength to deal with life was her unquestioning belief in God and spiritual comfort she found in the Catholic Church. I was a nominal Catholic when we married , but quickly became a practicing Catholic and have been one ever since. Although my faith grew with each passing year, I still wondered about God.
  2. My wondering led me, about forty years ago, to the writing of Teilhard de Chardin. The following passage from *The Phenomenon of Man *precipitated a personal quest to find the meaning of life, a life based on a belief in God:
“It is impossible to deny that, deep within ourselves, an ‘interior’ appears at the heart of beings, as it were seen through a rent. This is enough to ensure that, in one degree or another, this ‘interior’ should obtrude itself as existing everywhere in nature from all time. Since, the stuff of the universe has an inner aspect at one point of itself, there is necessarily a double aspect to its structure, that is to say in every region of space and time – in the same way, for instance, as it is granular – co-extensive with their Without, there is a Within to things”

I decided that to find the meaning of life, I would have to first understand what Teilhard meant by the within/without and how such a thing could be explained physically. Teilhard is criticized by many Catholics for his views on evolution, but I think in that regard he is misunderstood and that is a shame because he is one of the great advocates of the existence of a spiritual aspect of reality.
  1. Fourteen years ago, when I retired after a 35-year career as an engineer in the semiconductor industry, I intensified my quest and began to develop thoughts that led to a possible explanation for Teilhard’s view and consequently to a possible way in which God might exist as the within not only of our being, but of the entire universe.
    In the course of my quest, I recalled an incident from my distant pass, an event that remained in my psyche because of the intense feeling that it evoked at the time. Here it is:
“As a boy, I often slept outdoors on warm summer nights. On those perfect nights when the sky was dark and clear and you could see the Milky Way, I would gaze for hours at the stars. My eyes were sharp then and able to resolve the tiniest p(name removed by moderator)oint of light. Usually I saw the sky as the ancients saw itas a vast light-speckled dome hovering above the Earth, but one night, as I lay in the warm grass scanning a small patch of sky, my focus came to rest on a very dim star. I quivered in subtle awe as my mind contemplated the immense distance to that star. Then my gaze slipped into an adjacent patch of blackness and I quivered with deeper awe. I did not realize it at the time, but in that brief moment, the infinite and the eternal reached down from that black hole of nothingness and touched my soul.
A lifetime has passed since that wonder-inducing moment. Since then, I marveled at the fragile beauty of a butterfly drinking nectar from a purple Buddleia. I watched the seed of a daylily sprout, grow into a tender shoot, and become a thing of beauty. I comforted a sobbing child in the stillness of a dark night. I solved a differential equation. I thrilled to the music of La Boheme. I gazed across the great prairie of the American heartland. I watched the graceful trajectory of a baseball leaving the cool light of the stadium into the warm darkness of a summer night. I experienced awe and ennui, joy and despair, peace and anxiety. I traveled a journey filled with countless emotions. I observed and felt these and a thousand other things, but most of all, I wondered: could God’s hand be in all of this or is life nothing more than a silly statistical accident? I wondered about many specific things, about deep things, about shallow things; but what I wondered most about was the mystery of God and the meaning of life. Finding the meaning of life became my quest.”

After much thought about that incident, I decided that what I was looking at when I peered into the infinite nothingness was, the thing that caused the deep, even frightening awe, was God.
I hope you all have a life as wonder-filled as mine.
Yppop
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Dameedna:

Excellent readings from :

http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/enchiridion/ench1.php

Read the first page of St. Augustine’s letter to Laurence his friend who asked him for a “pocket manual” so that he may carry it around has a guide.

Augustine is open to understanding what detracts us from obtaining wisdom. Not wanting to fail his friend, he is cautious and mentions the intellect and limitations to experience using the senses in terms he can understand. His words are measured and carefully selected, and the logic is progressive and sequential. Immediately you come away feeling that this letter and guide is one for the modern man, and it is no wonder St. Ignatius makes reference to his work, and had it in mind when he developed his Spiritual Exercises.

Accompanied with the “straight talk/one-on-one” of NT books of Sirach, the poetic Psalms, and passed down advice of Wisdom, and resigned submission of Ecclesiastes, one can begin to see clearly that we need to elevate to beyond this worlds nature of which we are a part with it’s limitations in knowledge, but place service,trust and fear of God has a focus. One discovers doors don’t need to be opened, but they open themselves eventually. 👍

These books are an excellent companion guide and heirloom.

Andy
 
Hi Dameedna,

You asked about what experiences lead to religious belief. Here is a story that has always fascinated me:

"I recently spent an afternoon on the northwestern shore of the Sea of Galilee, atop the mount where Jesus is believed to have preached his most famous sermon. It was an infernally hot day, and the sanctuary was crowded with Christian pilgrims from many continents. Some gathered silently in the shade, while others staggered in the noonday sun, taking photographs.

As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. Everything was as it had been—the cloudless sky, the pilgrims clutching their bottles of water—but I no longer felt like I was separate from the scene, peering out at the world from behind my eyes. Only the world remained.

The experience lasted just a few moments, but returned many times as I gazed out over the land where Jesus is believed to have walked, gathered his apostles, and worked many of his miracles. If I were a Christian, I would undoubtedly interpret this experience in Christian terms. I might believe that I had glimpsed the oneness of God, or felt the descent of the Holy Spirit.But I am not a Christian.

If I were a Hindu, I might talk about “Brahman,” the eternal Self, of which all individual minds are thought to be a mere modification. But I am not a Hindu. If I were a Buddhist, I might talk about the “dharmakaya of emptiness” in which all apparent things manifest. But I am not a Buddhist.

As someone who is simply making his best effort to be a rational human being, I am very slow to draw metaphysical conclusions from experiences of this sort. The truth is, I experience what I would call the “selflessness of consciousness” rather often, wherever I happen to meditate—be it in a Buddhist monastery, a Hindu temple, or while having my teeth cleaned. Consequently, the fact that I also had this experience at a Christian holy site does not lend an ounce of credibility to the doctrine of Christianity.

There is no question that people have “spiritual” experiences (I use words like “spiritual” and “mystical” in scare quotes, because they come to us trailing a long tail of metaphysical debris). Every culture has produced people who have gone off into caves for months or years and discovered that certain deliberate uses of attention—introspection, meditation, prayer—can radically transform a person’s moment to moment perception of the world…"

This is a quote from Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith.

I think there is little doubt that people have such mystical experiences which are not limited to people with religious beliefs. The question I have is how such experiences can be imagined to be confirmation of any particular religion. People have responded to your query with similar stories. I wonder how these people see these stories (as profound and life-altering as they may be) as lending any credence to the historical and scientific claims made by Catholicism. I can’t see how they do.

Is Catholicism even concerned at all with teaching people how to have such experiences and how to use such experiences to transform their day to day perspective? Is religion about what Moses experienced at the top of the mountain or about what he said when he came down from the mountain?

I suspect that behind all the dogma is the kernal of truth in the transformative power of such experiences in making us more loving and fulfilled people who can help create a better world, but I see religion as so wrapped up in trying to get people to believe dogmatic assertions without evidence that this basis of religion is mostly lost.

What do you think?

Best,
Leela
 
Wow I got some good responses here. Thread was a little slow to take off, I appreciate those that helped to keep it alive.

I’ll respond to a few of the posts in turn 🙂

Many thanks 🙂
 
frankblahnik said:
Love
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Simple answer, but one that resonates with me. I won’t go into details, but it is an “experience” of Love that added to my questioning of reality.

And I wasn’t “falling” in love. I felt a moment of “profound” love for an individual I despised.

It could have been the 20 cups of coffee I drank that day. But I don’t think so. It was weird…and all was right with the world, as I gazed on a quite dispicable human being, with absolute love.

Then it passed, and he went back to being an ogre 😛

But I saw a glimpse, of the deep beauty of our humanity and it was enough of a glimpse to add it to my pile of…athiest hmmms. 🙂
 
yellowbicycle said:
And, why do people do good things with no expectation of future repayment? People say they do it because that’s what they would want for themselves. And to that I say, so what? What you do for others doesn’t always come back to you. We know that. So, that line doesn’t hold water with me. People say it goes back to evolutionary biology - we want to protect the herd. But, why would a person, with a good life and a good job, a wife and three kids, risk his life to save another’s? that’s certainly no way to ensure that your genetics get passed on. And why does it make people feel SO good to do those things? Have you ever done something kind and purposely hid yourself from your well-deserved recognition? Why did you do it? Did it make you feel good? Why? Why does giving of yourself lead to such deep satisfaction? The only conclusion that I can reach is to believe that doing such things is a fulfillment of our very souls.
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I think this can and has been to a degree explained through our biology.

We are instinctual creatures. Not all of “decent” and “good” human behaviour may fall into this category, but yes I think most can be explained by nature.

Including doing things without recognition.
 
Leela said:
I suspect that behind all the dogma is the kernal of truth in the transformative power of such experiences in making us more loving and fulfilled people who can help create a better world, but I see religion as so wrapped up in trying to get people to believe dogmatic assertions without evidence that this basis of religion is mostly lost.

What do you think?

Best,
Leela
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Lovely post Leela, and I agree.

I think the essence is lost through the dogma and need to beleive we are 100% correct.

I like it…is religion there to teach us how to experience God, as moses did, or is religion there to teach us…what moses came down from the mountain with.

I think the former, has been lost, and I think it’s true of most religions.

That’s why I like to hear and read about people’s spiritual experiences, because they usually have less to do with dogma, and more to do with that individuals trek up the mountain.

Cheers
Dameedn
 
AndyF said:
Dameedna:

Excellent readings from :

Catholic Treasury | Enchiridion

Read the first page of St. Augustine’s letter to Laurence his friend who asked him for a “pocket manual” so that he may carry it around has a guide.

Augustine is open to understanding what detracts us from obtaining wisdom. Not wanting to fail his friend, he is cautious and mentions the intellect and limitations to experience using the senses in terms he can understand. His words are measured and carefully selected, and the logic is progressive and sequential. Immediately you come away feeling that this letter and guide is one for the modern man, and it is no wonder St. Ignatius makes reference to his work, and had it in mind when he developed his Spiritual Exercises.

Accompanied with the “straight talk/one-on-one” of NT books of Sirach, the poetic Psalms, and passed down advice of Wisdom, and resigned submission of Ecclesiastes, one can begin to see clearly that we need to elevate to beyond this worlds nature of which we are a part with it’s limitations in knowledge, but place service,trust and fear of God has a focus. One discovers doors don’t need to be opened, but they open themselves eventually. 👍

These books are an excellent companion guide and heirloom.

Andy
Click to expand...
Thanks. I appreciate the link, gives me something to sink my teeth into 😃
 
Well, no concepts or ideas led me to God, however, there are many observable facts which have lead many scientists to believe in God, and I believe He created said facts as scientific proof for His existence - however, said proof could never replace faith, because God is spirit.

The observable facts are too numerous to list but I will give you some of them (oh, and by “scientist” I mean a man of science, no strings attached):
  1. Big Bang. It is only a theory, but, if it is true - and there is data to show that it is - than it begs the question, where did the Universe come from? A believer would say God, a scientist would say something infinite and incomprehensive, and both would be correct, becuase God is an infinite and incomprehensive Being.
  2. Evolution. It is also only a theory, but, if it is true - and there is indeed data to show that it is - than it shows an intelligence that formed creatures, which begs the question, what intelligence and where did it come from? A believer would say God, and becuase God is eternal He came from nowhere but simly is, and a scientist would say it could be God, or it could be the Universe itself.
  3. Mind. The human mind is quite extraordinary, not only because of reason but also because we are able to imagine, manipulate matter, and come up with governments and other things which no other creature can do. A believe would say this is proof of an intelligent Maker, and that we are created in God’s image and likeness, and a scientist would say it could be God, or it could be that the Universe itself is knowledge and intelligence (a sort of scientifc varient of pantheism).
  4. Philosophy. The fact that humans are able to question and seek the truth is another extraordinary feat, and one that is not only not necessary for survival but shows that man is meant for more than survival: he is meant to think and to seek the truth. A believer would say this is proof we are meant for God, a scientist would say that this is proof that man is the consummation of the Universe - and he would be correct, and we Christians believe this as well.
  5. Science. The fact that science even exists - something which you’ll never find any other animal engaging in, though some animals do engage in experiments and learning - is a great proof, along with philosphy, that man is meant to seek out some kind of truth. A believer would say this is proof of God, a scientist would say this is proof that man is meant to be consummation of the Universe.
  6. Laws. The orderliness of the Universe is quite amazing and beyond our understanding, how all the laws and rules work together for the good of us creatures and the rest of the Universe. A believer would say it is proof that an intelligent Maker created the Universe, a scienist would say that the Universe is too complex to say how or why the laws came to be (indeed, this would make sense from a purely scientifc point of view).
  7. Relics. Time and again, religion has been challeged, yet, time and again, there have been proofs that something or someone is behind religion and that believers aren’t just dying for nothing. For example, we have found numerous relics from the persons in the Bible, most noteably Jesus Christ. A believer would say it is proof that the Bible is correct, a scientist would say it is proof that Christianity exists.
  8. Archeology. Again, time and again the locations and places described in religious texts have been challenged, and just as many times as they have been challgenged, archaeological evidence for the places’ existence shows us (though not immediately, admittably). For example, for a while people believed Nazareth was a fictional village, but evidence has been unearthed that shows Nazareth was once a real village. A believe would cite this as proof for the Bible, a scientist would cite it as proof that the writers of the Bible knew their geography (and how could they not if they lived in the period that they write of?).
I hope these concepts bring up questions to ponder over. 🙂
 
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