Concepts that lead to God

[Dameedna]

Well, no concepts or ideas led me to God, however, there are many observable facts which have lead many scientists to believe in God, and I believe He created said facts as scientific proof for His existence - however, said proof could never replace faith, because God is spirit.

The observable facts are too numerous to list but I will give you some of them (oh, and by “scientist” I mean a man of science, no strings attached):

I would be very careful about what you call a fact. There are “facts” and then there are the assumptions you may dervie from those facts…IE the conclusions you draw.

Conclusions…do not equal facts.

1. Big Bang. It is only a theory, but, if it is true - and there is data to show that it is - than it begs the question, where did the Universe come from? A believer would say God, a scientist would say something infinite and incomprehensive, and both would be correct, becuase God is an infinite and incomprehensive Being.

This is quite good. But it also renders the word “God” meaningless for most skeptics.

We can call the “infinite reality” God, or we can just call it “the infinite reality”.

We are really just minceing human words at this point. You don’t believe in an “infinite reality” you believe in something tangible and meaningful, which is a lot different, than an absolute reality which the athiest understands.

But…it still is a good point that brings science and religion a little bit closer.

Something, exists. It’s a start

1. Evolution. It is also only a theory

It is not a theory. Natural Selection is the “theory” of evolution. IE the building blocks, such as you study music theory. You don’t doubt music is real, but you need to understand how it is constructed.

Evolution, is how we got here and is considered a fact by the scientific community. Natural selection, is the method , the “breakdown/theory” of how it occured.

In summary.

The “theory” of evolution, is natural selection. Evolution itself, is a fact.

1. Philosophy. The fact that humans are able to question and seek the truth is another extraordinary feat, and one that is not only not necessary for survival but shows that man is meant for more than survival: he is meant to think and to seek the truth. A believer would say this is proof we are meant for God, a scientist would say that this is proof that man is the consummation of the Universe - and he would be correct, and we Christians believe this as well.

I think this can be explained as a by product of other evolutionary forces(such as reading is a by product of the brain, there is no “actual” reading centre of the brain).

But…I still think that our ability to ponder and question should give us pause for thought. Regardless of how it came about, it DID come about. We exist…and we know we exist AND we exist…with a deep desire to question…our existance. It’s enough to make us question.

Another good point

1. Science. The fact that science even exists - something which you’ll never find any other animal engaging in, though some animals do engage in experiments and learning - is a great proof,

I think you are close, but not quite right. Science is a tool and humans are tool makers and problem solvers. That is our biology and evolutionary path so science itself, is not so miraculous.

The REASON for science, IS rather miraculous. Science, is an absolute submission to something bigger than our personal desires. It is a submission and a search for truth.

IS a search for truth biological? maybe… but…it’s a big one. The desire for truth is SO strong, that an individual will accept their own death, and the meaningless of existance for the sake of “truth”. (The athiest mindset)

Wether they are right or not, science is a submission completely and utterly to the pursuit of truth. To the great detriment of many a human psyche.

Another pause for thought and a good point.

Thanks for your response. I particularly liked the comments that I responded to

Cheers
Dame

 

[tabsie3210]

I would like to know what concepts, thoughts, ideas led you to concieve of a possibility of a God(and not just an infinite, impersonal universe in one form or another). I’m not going to ask for any specific answers(with intent), however I’m hoping something more than “The bible is the word of God, therefore it is accruate therefore God exists” kind of ideas. If you want to share that, then it’s fine, but it’s not really personal to the individual.

I’m looking more for ideas outside of a specific religion, and I’m not looking for proofs. Just what may have gotten you thinking about it.
QUOTE]

Science, particularly Evolution, gives the biggest impression that there’s a God in charge of everything.

Seriously, every single thing in the universe is some kind of engin. Everything from the lifecycle of stars (not the word “cycle” in there) to photosynthesis on earth, is some kind of an engin. Evolution is too perfect an engin for me to ignore. I could never get into Neo-Darwinism’s “everything happened by accident and chance, there is no god runnign the show” line just because the concept Darwin came up with is too grand and too perfectly deined for me to concieve of chance. Especially put together with other engins throughout the universe. I could picture some things happening by chance, but when you’ve got an entire universe made up of biological systems, and instincts arise, and the weathe is perfectly suited to fit the life cycle of animals and plants, and we have engins within stars to build new stars and planets, and everything keeps happening in an understandable and orderly way, forget it. Chance can’t keep up.

 

[miguel]

…This questioning has come from another thread, that indicated that as a materialist I make the assumption there is nothing more than the material. The real question then for people like me, is why would I make the assumption otherwise since that’s all the universe(and my sensory (name removed by moderator)ut devices) show me…

Is thought material?

 

[Dameedna]

Is thought material?

My post is a question to those that would like to share the concepts that lead them to God.

It was never intended to be a debate nor my own underhanded desire to attack anothers view. I will ask you kindly to refrain from trying to create a debate on this thread as I’d like to try and keep it on topic.

Please share with me your concepts that have led you to God and if “human thought” is one such concept, then please describe your answer, and not give me a question.

 

[Dameedna]

Science, particularly Evolution, gives the biggest impression that there’s a God in charge of everything.

Hehe…not often I hear evolution as the reason for faith.

Interesting view, ty

 

[miguel]

My post is a question to those that would like to share the concepts that lead them to God.

It was never intended to be a debate nor my own underhanded desire to attack anothers view. I will ask you kindly to refrain from trying to create a debate on this thread as I’d like to try and keep it on topic.

Please share with me your concepts that have led you to God and if “human thought” is one such concept, then please describe your answer, and not give me a question.

I thought I responded to your “real question for people like me…” And I thought I was being polite by not coming out and beating you over the head with an answer.

I’m paraphrasing Frank Sheed here from “Theology for Beginners”. And I’m sure he was paraphrasing some Greek philosopher…not sure who since I’m not a philosopher.

Thought is not material. Matter occupies 3 dimensional space. Thought does not. You can’t put thought in a box. Yet it’s there. And it’s powerful. Spirit does not occupy 3 dimensional space either. Spirit produces thought and thought is evidence of spirit. I think thought points to something beyond the material.

 

[Dameedna]

I thought I responded to your “real question for people like me…” And I thought I was being polite by not coming out and beating you over the head with an answer.

I’m paraphrasing Frank Sheed here from “Theology for Beginners”. And I’m sure he was paraphrasing some Greek philosopher…not sure who since I’m not a philosopher.

Thought is not material. Matter occupies 3 dimensional space. Thought does not. You can’t put thought in a box.

It is possible for something to be a product of matter, without being matter itself. Our ability to Read follows down those lines.

Yet it’s there. And it’s powerful. Spirit does not occupy 3 dimensional space either. Spirit produces thought and thought is evidence of spirit. I think thought points to something beyond the material.

I will admit that the fact that we do “think” and are aware of it is another one of those hmmm moments. So I guess for you, it is our ability to think…that leads you toward a belief in something bigger?

 

[yppop]

Hey all,

…I’m looking more for ideas outside of a specific religion, and I’m not looking for proofs. Just what may have gotten you thinking about it.

…I’m agnostic(or label me really what you want, I’m not religious lets just say that), and there are a few ideas or concepts that make me question enough so that I’m not entirely sure of my athiestish views…

Think about the despair on the face of the tiny starving child in Somalia or the sadness of a mother whose child has died. Where is God? Can He really stand by and witness such evil? On the other hand, isn’t it unthinkable that this life is all that awaits those who suffer. Doesn’t their suffering demand something better? Could that something be anything short of eternal bliss? I don’t think so! And every time I hear an atheist smirk at anyone who believes, or listen to an agnostic preach their indifference, or hear a cynic cry fool, I think of the suffering, I think of the starving, the desperate, the handicapped, the maimed, the lonely and I want to cry out, “God must exist”! If for nothing else, to support the unfortunate souls in this life, there will be something better in the next. Can we be so heartless to condemn them to a single, pitiful lifetime by telling them there is no God, that there is nothing else? Isn’t that the height of callousness? Yes, if for no other reason, we must believe! To give hope.

YPPOP