concerns about freemasonry

[rinnie]

I’ve only tried to point out that the Church doesn’t prohibit membership in Freemasonry in spite of what many of the laity on here post. Canon 1374 does not prohibit it, the only argument of any substance is that Cardinal Ratzinger put out an opinion that membership is grave sin. That creates a potential conflict with Canon Law. I’ve asked a number of priests to clarify the issue and without exception, every single priest I’ve asked has told me that Catholics may become Freemasons. But the laity on here are authorities and they know more than priests, apparently slandering priests doesn’t cause you any concern. The other arguments that have been made are that Freemasonry is bad because we say it’s bad without any evidence to support the position other than we say it’s bad. I’m not slandering Popes, I haven’t said anything untruthful about any Pope, slander, by definition, is spreading a lie. I follow Church teaching, there is nothing you can point to that suggests I don’t. I’m not a Mason, Church teaching allows Catholics to become Masons, that gets anti-masons fired up.

Oh yes it does. It is forbidden to be a part of this organization and receive Communion in the Catholic Church.

You are saying then the Pope is saying that if you are a part of them you are in mortal sin Which by the way is what grave sin is. but then permits it

Thats a pretty good one.

Grave sin means that you have put your soul in Grave DANGER. DO you want to recant what you said, or still say the Pope says we can be in a state of Mortal sin. I don’t think thats what he teaches at all.

The Pope and Bishops and Priests are PUT here to get us out of Grave sin by the power of GOd, not keep us in it.

 

[EzraJacob]

TrentCath;8231902:

“Yes that was the case but not as a Dogma and nor was infalibility involved.”

Papal Infallibility was declared by Vatican I in 1870, I hope you are aware of that. Are you suggesting that the Church telling Catholics what groups they can be members of is a matter of dogma? I disagree, it’s an attempt to micromanage lives and control people and it has nothing to do with morality. Based on what you’ve written, I can see that you are all in favor of trying to tell people what to do and telling them how to live their lives

Im sorry, but you sound like you do not agree with Papal authority.Which makes me wonder, why are you still in the Church? If you do not think the Pontiff, the one who is St. Peters succesor, is guided by the Holy Spirit, and is just doing God work.

John Ch. 21

15 When they had eaten, Jesus said to Simon Peter, ‘Simon son of John, do you love me more than these others do?’ He answered, ‘Yes, Lord, you know I love you.’ Jesus said to him, 'Feed my lambs.'

16 A second time he said to him, ‘Simon son of John, do you love me?’ He replied, ‘Yes, Lord, you know I love you.’ Jesus said to him, 'Look after my sheep.'
17 Then he said to him a third time, ‘Simon son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was hurt that he asked him a third time, ‘Do you love me?’ and said, ‘Lord, you know everything; you know I love you.’ Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.

Peters successor, The Pope, is only continuing the job Jesus gave St. Peter. That is to “Feed my lambs, look after my sheep, feed my sheep”

Why are you fighting the man who is in charge of Christs Church on earth, and who is looking after us spiritually?

To be Catholic, is to be loyal to the Magisterium.

 

[Brian_H]

More like the contraception, abortion, homosexual “marriage”, remove God from public square influence.

Do you have any evidence that Freemasonry has anything to do with any of these issues other than a belief in separation of church and state? There are Republicans that are masons and Democrats that are masons. They are forbidden from discussing politics or religion at meetings.

 

[EzraJacob]

I’ve only tried to point out that the Church doesn’t prohibit membership in Freemasonry in spite of what many of the laity on here post. Canon 1374 does not prohibit it, the only argument of any substance is that Cardinal Ratzinger put out an opinion that membership is grave sin. That creates a potential conflict with Canon Law. I’ve asked a number of priests to clarify the issue and without exception, every single priest I’ve asked has told me that Catholics may become Freemasons. But the laity on here are authorities and they know more than priests, apparently slandering priests doesn’t cause you any concern. The other arguments that have been made are that Freemasonry is bad because we say it’s bad without any evidence to support the position other than we say it’s bad. I’m not slandering Popes, I haven’t said anything untruthful about any Pope, slander, by definition, is spreading a lie. I follow Church teaching, there is nothing you can point to that suggests I don’t. I’m not a Mason,** Church teaching allows Catholics to become Masons, that gets anti-masons fired up**.

No it doesnt. This has been pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. And your defense is that Popes have been liars.

Cardinal Ratzinger, or more appropriate, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, saying it is a grave sin, is not the only one to say so.

It doesn’t matter what a Priest says when it goes against the Bishop of Rome!

 

[TrentCath]

“Yes that was the case but not as a Dogma and nor was infalibility involved.”

Papal Infallibility was declared by Vatican I in 1870, I hope you are aware of that. Are you suggesting that the Church telling Catholics what groups they can be members of is a matter of dogma? I disagree, it’s an attempt to micromanage lives and control people and it has nothing to do with morality. Based on what you’ve written, I can see that you are all in favor of trying to tell people what to do and telling them how to live their lives

“Galileo was punished for his arrogance rather than his views per se.”

That is an interesting way to spin facts. Galileo pointed out that scientific evidenced proved the Church was wrong, that to you is arrogance. A Church that disregards science and insists on it’s own uninformed views after they have been proven to be incorrect is much more arrogant.

“further it is saddening that you have raised your countries constitution from an opinion to holding equal weight to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ.”

The Constitution is an opinion? I can tell you aren’t a legal scholar. The Constitution is the supreme law of this country. You as a Catholic are commanded to respect civil laws. I guess you think you can ignore that aspect of Church teaching since it doesn’t further your narrowminded unenlightened views. The fact that you try to argue that separation of church and state are bad is further evidence of your ignorance. If you had your way, you would return humanity to the dark ages. Here are a couple of examples of why state sponsored religion is not very good: the Taliban, the Thirty Years War, the French Religious Wars, the English Civil War. Please educate yourself about the suffering caused by these events. What is appalling is your lack of even an elementary understanding of history.

“Again if you read the encyclicals you will see the evidence the popes refer to.”

They don’t contain evidence, they contain a person’s opinions, opinions based upon speculation and conjecture are not evidence. I see that you can’t understand that. You can’t engage in critical thinking, you can only resort to circular logic. The Church said so and the Church can’t be wrong because the Church says it can’t be wrong. You put rules and dogmas before love. So did the Pharrisees, read the Gospel, you’ll see what Jesus thinks of religious leaders that put rules and dogma before people, compassion, and love.

It is clear that you do not hold The Catholic Faith further you are not willing to listen to correction and reject the true faith therefore in obedience to our lords words in the Gospel of Matthew 18:15-16 '*But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

[16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican*.’ I will not continue this discussion with you, God Bless and may Our Lady Immaculate guide you to the truth by the mercy of God

 

[Brian_H]

Brian H;8233080:

Im sorry, but you sound like you do not agree with Papal authority.Which makes me wonder, why are you still in the Church? If you do not think the Pontiff, the one who is St. Peters succesor, is guided by the Holy Spirit, and is just doing God work.

John Ch. 21

Peters successor, The Pope, is only continuing the job Jesus gave St. Peter. That is to “Feed my lambs, look after my sheep, feed my sheep”

Why are you fighting the man who is in charge of Christs Church on earth, and who is looking after us spiritually?

To be Catholic, is to be loyal to the Magisterium.

Papal Infallibility only applies in limited instances. As an example, Pope John Paul II didn’t rely on Papal Infallibility when he said women couldn’t be ordained. You can cite example after example where Popes have been wrong in the past, like the claim that the universe revolved around the earth. Popes are capable of abusing their power and I don’t have any respect for any figure that abuses their power to try and control people. I respect pronouncements that pertain to dogma, those are guided by the Holy Spirit, the rest of the time, it’s just a person’s opinion.

 

[jam070406]

Do you have any evidence that Freemasonry has anything to do with any of these issues other than a belief in separation of church and state? There are Republicans that are masons and Democrats that are masons. They are forbidden from discussing politics or religion at meetings.

Yes, Masons put Masonic “freedom” and “enlightenment” principles above all, including God and His Church. When you toss out dogma you have humanist so-called “rights” that shun God and jeopardize souls. So Jesus takes a back seat in the Lodge and in the public square.

 

[jam070406]

EzraJacob;8233507:

Papal Infallibility only applies in limited instances. As an example, Pope John Paul II didn’t rely on Papal Infallibility when he said women couldn’t be ordained. You can cite example after example where Popes have been wrong in the past, like the claim that the universe revolved around the earth. Popes are capable of abusing their power and I don’t have any respect for any figure that abuses their power to try and control people. I respect pronouncements that pertain to dogma, those are guided by the Holy Spirit, the rest of the time, it’s just a person’s opinion.

Masons reject dogma.

 

[Brian_H]

It is clear that you do not hold The Catholic Faith further you are not willing to listen to correction and reject the true faith therefore in obedience to our lords words in the Gospel of Matthew 18:15-16 '*But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

[16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican*.’ I will not continue this discussion with you, God Bless and may Our Lady Immaculate guide you to the truth by the mercy of God

You think you have the power to judge because I don’t share your opinions, you don’t have the power to judge anyone, you are only bringing condemnation against yourself when you judge. You feel like you can threaten me, I’m not threatened at all by your judgments or your distorted view of Christ’s teachings.

Here is something from Matthew 23 you should meditate on:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started! You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

Take your ball and go home kid, you haven’t said anything of substance anyway. You just regurgitate the same old tired circular logic and distort facts. May God have mercy on you.

 

[Brian_H]

Brian H;8233571:

Masons reject dogma.

It isn’t a religion, they don’t have any dogma, it’s a fraternity that does charity work. The individual mason is obligated to put their Church before the fraternity and each mason’s religious beliefs are a matter of their own conscious.

 

[EzraJacob]

EzraJacob;8233507:

Papal Infallibility only applies in limited instances. As an example, Pope John Paul II didn’t rely on Papal Infallibility when he said women couldn’t be ordained. You can cite example after example where Popes have been wrong in the past, like the claim that the universe revolved around the earth. Popes are capable of abusing their power and I don’t have any respect for any figure that abuses their power to try and control people. I respect pronouncements that pertain to dogma, those are guided by the Holy Spirit, the rest of the time, it’s just a person’s opinion.

Papal Authority is not limited to certain instances.

Ordaining women is another subject.

Its “Catholics” like you who rebel against the Magisterium and still receive communion are the ones who are bringing judgement upon themselves.

The fact that there are also American Masons, who evidently advocate the Kulturkampf in America and stir up the international Kulturkampf, is attested by the example of Bros. J.D. Buck, 33 and A. Pike, 33. Buck published a book, “The Genius of Freemasonry”, in which he advocates most energetically a Kulturkampf for the United States. This book, which in 1907, was in its 3rd edition, is recommended ardently to all American Masons by Masonic journals. A. Pike, as the Grand Commander of the Mother Supreme Council of the World (Charleston, South Carolina) lost no opportunity in his letters to excite the anti-clerical spirit of his colleagues. In a long letter of 28 December, 1886, for instance, he conjures the Italian Grand Commander, Timoteo Riboli, 33, the intimate friend of Garibaldi, to do all in his power, in order to unite Italian Masonry against the Vatican. He writes:

The Papacy . . . has been for a thousand years the torturer and curse of Humanity, the most shameless imposture, in its pretence to spiritual power of all ages. With its robes wet and reeking with the blood of half a million of human beings, with the grateful odour of roasted human flesh always in its nostrils, it is exulting over the prospect of renewed dominion. It has sent all over the world its anathemas against Constitutional government and the right of men to freedom of thought and conscience.

Again,

“In presence of this spiritual ‘Cobra di capello’, this deadly, treacherous, murderous enemy, the most formidable power in the world, the unity of Italian Masonry is of absolute and supreme necessity; and to this paramount and omnipotent necessity all minor considerations ought to yield; dissensions and disunion, in presence of this enemy of the human race are criminal”.

“There must be no unyielding, uncompromising insistence upon particular opinions, theories, prejudices, professions: but, on the contrary, mutual concessions and harmonious co-operation”.

“The Freemasonry of the world will rejoice to see accomplished and consummated the Unity of the Italian Freemasonry”. [172]

The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:

Clement XII, Constitution “In Eminenti”, 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, “Providas”, 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, “Ecclesiam”, 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, “Quo graviora”, 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encyclical “Traditi”, 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, “Mirari”, 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encyclical “Qui pluribus”, 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Allocution “Quibus quantisque malis”, 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encyclical “Quanta cura”, 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Allocution “Multiplices inter”, 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Constitution “Apostolicæ Sedis”, 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encyclical “Etsi multa”, 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encyclical “Humanum genus”, 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, “Præclara”, 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, “Annum ingressi”, 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encyclical “Etsí nos”, 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, “Ab Apostolici”, 15 October, 1890.

WOW. 17 papal pronouncements against Freemasonry! And you still think the Church approves of freemasonry?

newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm

 

[jam070406]

jam070406;8233602:

It isn’t a religion, they don’t have any dogma, it’s a fraternity that does charity work. The individual mason is obligated to put their Church before the fraternity and each mason’s religious beliefs are a matter of their own conscious.

No Jesus allowed in the Lodge. Masonry above Jesus.
It’s a slow Faith destroying mentality that perverts the Truth.
Another reason Popes forbid the Faithful to be Masons. Which you would have learned had you spent more time learning what the Papal encyclicals on Masonry said instead of labeling the Popes as power hungry liars.

 

[EzraJacob]

You think you have the power to judge because I don’t share your opinions, you don’t have the power to judge anyone, you are only bringing condemnation against yourself when you judge. You feel like you can threaten me, I’m not threatened at all by your judgments or your distorted view of Christ’s teachings.

Follow what the Pope says and the Bishops say, is having a distorted view of Christ’s teachings?

Are you sure you are Catholic?

 

[Brian_H]

Brian H;8233651:

No Jesus allowed in the Lodge. Masonry above Jesus.
It’s a slow Faith destroying mentality that perverts the Truth.
Another reason Popes forbid the Faithful to be Masons. Which you would have learned had you spent more time learning what the Papal encyclicals on Masonry said instead of labeling the Popes as power hungry liars.

Boy Scouts is non-denominational also, it only requires a belief in God. Are the Boy Scouts above Jesus as well? There are a number of groups that are non-denominational, require a belief in God, and do charity work, yet only Freemasonry is attacked.

 

[jam070406]

jam070406;8233679:

Boy Scouts is non-denominational also, it only requires a belief in God. Are the Boy Scouts above Jesus as well? There are a number of groups that are non-denominational, require a belief in God, and do charity work, yet only Freemasonry is attacked.

No Jesus at the Lodge. Swear your secret oath.

 

[Brian_H]

Follow what the Pope says and the Bishops say, is having a distorted view of Christ’s teachings?

Are you sure you are Catholic?

If they advocate positions which aren’t inspired by the Holy Spirit, based upon their own opinions, or contrary to Christ’s teaching, then they are abusing their position.

 

[Brian_H]

Brian H;8233721:

No Jesus at the Lodge. Swear your secret oath.

How is that a response to what I wrote? If that is the case, then the Church should forbid membership in the Boy Scouts.

 

[TrentCath]

You think you have the power to judge because I don’t share your opinions, you don’t have the power to judge anyone, you are only bringing condemnation against yourself when you judge. You feel like you can threaten me, I’m not threatened at all by your judgments or your distorted view of Christ’s teachings.

Here is something from Matthew 23 you should meditate on:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous…"

Take your ball and go home kid, you haven’t said anything of substance anyway. You just regurgitate the same old tired circular logic and distort facts. May God have mercy on you.

So you think the Pope’s are equivalent to the pharisee’s? And that their encyclicals are comparable to the traditions of man? As for saying nothing of substance I pointed out the churches explicit condemnation of freemasonry for some 170 years, the church STILL forbids membership in masonic societies as people on here have made clear and yet you still think its alright for catholics to be masons?

It’s evident to all on here that you adhere to the heresy of Americanism (Yes there really is such a heresy) which Pope Leo XIII condemned in no uncertain terms in his enyclical ‘Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae’ which can be read here

In it he states '**From the foregoing it is manifest, beloved son, that we are not able to give approval to those views which, in their collective sense, are called by some “Americanism.” But if by this name are to be understood certain endowments of mind which belong to the American people, just as other characteristics belong to various other nations, and if, moreover, by it is designated your political condition and the laws and customs by which you are governed, there is no reason to take exception to the name. But if this is to be so understood that the doctrines which have been adverted to above are not only indicated, but exalted, there can be no manner of doubt that our venerable brethren, the bishops of America, would be the first to repudiate and condemn it as being most injurious to themselves and to their country. For it would give rise to the suspicion that there are among you some who conceive and would have the Church in America to be different from what it is in the rest of the world.

But the true church is one, as by unity of doctrine, so by unity of government, and she is catholic also. Since God has placed the center and foundation of unity in the chair of Blessed Peter, she is rightly called the Roman Church, for “where Peter is, there is the church.” Wherefore, if anybody wishes to be considered a real Catholic, he ought to be able to say from his heart the selfsame words which Jerome addressed to Pope Damasus: “I, acknowledging no other leader than Christ, am bound in fellowship with Your Holiness; that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that the church was built upon him as its rock, and that whosoever gathereth not with you, scattereth.” **’

As for tired arguments, you are the one who insists that, a)It is fine for catholics to be masons and b)Masons are not working to destroy the church, seeing as no less than 8 popes believe this and the church still condemns masonry, the burden of proof is on YOU to show that Catholics can be masons without any penalties AND that Masons are not plotting against the church. NO ONE on here needs to prove anything to you as we have all repeatedly shown you the Church Teaching on the subject, rather you can show us evidence that proves us AND all those popes wrong

 

[TrentCath]

If they advocate positions which aren’t inspired by the Holy Spirit, based upon their own opinions, or contrary to Christ’s teaching, then they are abusing their position.

Thats a good enough answer for me, no you’re not a catholic, you’re a ‘Roman Protestant’ trusting your own judgement over the churches.

 

[EzraJacob]

If they advocate positions which aren’t inspired by the Holy Spirit, based upon their own opinions, or contrary to Christ’s teaching, then they are abusing their position.

I think you should really re-consider if you are faithful to the church or not.

According to your logic, just about every bishop and pope has been abusing their position.

I pray for your soul, but maybe its better you leave the church before you poison her anymore with your heretical beliefs.

Satan is alive and trying hard