concerns about freemasonry

[rinnie]

And if you are condemning my Pope of today or yesterday for where he lives, or how he lives his life please refraim from doing so. You are not God, and do not have the power to judge anyone.

My Pope will be judged for his works here on earth just like I. And personally I feel the last 2 Pope are actually Awesome.

You can take any mistake a Pope has made in the past on his own and say he was wrong and I will not argue with you.

But when a Pope speaks in the name of Christ he has never failed. I believe when he speaks to me about my faith and morals and I will obey him. You can choose to reject him and go to the masons and put your soul in mortal danger, all he can do is teach you what he has the authority to teach. You can reject or obey.

But he has the right to speak for the Church and he has. You clearly reject his teaching. But please do not say that he has no right to teach in the name of Christ because you are in direct conflict with the word of God.

 

[kinja]

Hi Kinja, Canon 2335 is not in effect anymore, the entire 1917 Code of Canon Law is superseded by the 1983 Code.

Here we go again. I think functional literacy should be a criterion on CAF

In the previous Code (can 2335), Masonry is explicitly mentioned. As the declaration of 26 November 1983 explains, the omission of the name “Mason” in the present Church law is due to an “editorial criterion”. Masonic associations are thus included under a more general heading which could include any other association conspiring against the Church (e.g. a specific communist party).

Furthermore, excommunication is not implicit in the 1983 Code or the CDF’s statement. Excommunication is not a penalty established by Canon 1374.

Interdict is mentioned in Cannon 2335. Cannon 1374 reinforces the previous cannon therefore excommunication (interdict) is still in force.

I believe the statement you provided shows that who ever wrote it has a poor understanding of Canon Law. Again, Freemasons don’t conspire against the Church or the government, therefore Code 1374 does not apply.

So you are right and all official (there are more links I can send you) Catholic online sources are misinformed? You must be joking. You claim to understand cannon law better than the people who know it best so clearly you are deluded.

I received the Holy Spirit at conformation. I can only point to when the Church has been wrong about a moral position in the past. Who is the CDF or any other member of the clergy to abuse their position?

I don’t know what ELSE you received but you are deveived on this matter. Many non-christian religious claim to experience the power of the Holy Spirit as well but as the good book says “by the FRUITS you shall know them”.

Your fruits may need some more time to ripen as you have not brought clarity to this matter but confusion. And the Holy Spirit is a spirit of ORDER NOT confusion my friend.

It doesn’t mean that either side is right, it does show what a big problem we have. I think love, compassion, forgiveness, and the themes of the sermon on the mount are the bedrock of what the Church should be. It seems to me that for 'traditional" Catholics, rules, obedience to superiors, and judgment are the core of the Church. This represents my sentiment, and I think it represents how other “cafeteria” Catholics feel as well.

Yes we do have a big problem when those who claim to be Catholic are not obedient to the Church and cause many to fall into a state of sin and lead innocents aware from the straight and narrow path with false teachings and “doctrines of devils” as the gospel reads.

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Rinnie, I didn’t blame anything on Jesus, Jesus didn’t make any mistakes. People do make mistakes and they are capable of abusing their power. I’ve pointed out just a few of the errors of the people within the Church to show that they can abuse their power and pass off their mistakes as authentic teaching, when they abuse their position, it is not authentic teaching pursuant to the power given to them by Christ. When the Church said the smallpox vaccine was evil, it was a declaration of moral teaching, it was wrong, it was not authentic teaching. You are the one that said I was in mortal sin, in CAPS I might add.

Peace

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Kinja, nothing of substance in your last post, so there is no need to reply. But are you claiming that someone can be confirmed in a Catholic Church and not receive the Holy Spirit? That is an interesting theory, you are denying the sacraments in that case, you better look into the penalty for denying the sacraments and go to confession, I’m sure you don’t want to go to hell.

Peace

 

[kinja]

Hi Rinnie, I’ll try to respond to your recent posts. I received the Holy Spirit at Conformation.

Hi Brian

The Catholic word is confirmation not conrformation so I’m not so sure if what you received was in fact a sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ and dispensed through Him. Do you mean conformation to the world’s view that there are many paths to the same one God we worship (i.e Judaism, Hinduism, Satanism, Christianity, Neopaganism)?

The Church does exercise authentic teaching authority when it acts pursuant to the power given to it by Christ, when it exceeds that authority it is abusing its power. For example, who was Pope Innocent III to order that the Cathars be murdered for their heresy when they refused to be corrected? Who is any member of the clergy, after they have taken either a vow of simplicity or poverty, to live in a palace filled with art treasures? Surely any member of the clergy that lives in a palace with over 10,000 rooms, filled with art treasures AND maintains a sprawling country villa has missed the message of Jesus by a country mile.

Again and again I ask you for proof that the Pope has or is acting outside of the power given him by Jesus Christ.

That Pope’s order against the Cathars (?) was not made cannon law so it was not a matter of faith and morals, of which interdict for joining a masonic lodge is.

With regards to the “treasures and palace” claim I would like to point out to you, and the rest of protestants, that the Pope is merely a steward (as the appointed leader of the Church - apostolic succession) of the treasures of our church. He does not own these things himself. He has a say in what is done with them in order to continue the work of building the Church but he does not own them.

It is only logical that the artefacts, knowledge and valuable treasures of our tradition be responsible to someone (who better than the leader) that we just leave them to be defiled, sold or destroyed by the careless or those plotting against the Church (like the masons)

And I don’t feel that a message of tolerance is a strange doctrine. Jesus said to love one another, not love one another, but only if they agree with you about everything.

Jesus said He did not come to bring peace but the “sword”. He also encouraged His apostles to be tolerant of PEOPLE but NOT of strange doctrines designed to lead His flock astray.

One more thing, when someone tells me do what I tell you or you are in mortal sin and you are going to hell and I can only think of when Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged. You see, Jesus and his message are the foundation of my faith.

No one is judging anyone. Actions are being judged here NOT people. We are right to do so as scripture has instructed and continues to instruct us to.

With respect to Jesus and His message, only the Church has the authority to interpret what His message is. Not you or any other protestant has that authority. Those books were inspired by the Holy Spirit but Jesus himself did not write them nor leave them for us to read. The Holy Mother Church complied many books by many authors from many different times and places in history to create the cannon which we call the Bible (although protestants have made changes and ommission to their versions).

How can you hope to understand the context and content of the scripture exactly and totally on your own without guidance from those who translated it? Do you know for example that there are several words in greek and hebrew for a single english word?

Do you know that one word in english has several different meanings in hebrew or greek for that matter? What makes you think that you know Jesus’ message? Many misguided people have come before you and have believed that the voices speaking to them were the Holy Spirit. You expect WHO exactly to believe that YOUR position, which is contrary to that of the authority placed at the head of our Church, is guided by the Holy Spirit?

 

[kinja]

Hi Kinja, nothing of substance in your last post, so there is no need to reply. But are you claiming that someone can be confirmed in a Catholic Church and not receive the Holy Spirit? That is an interesting theory, you are denying the sacraments in that case, you better look into the penalty for denying the sacraments and go to confession, I’m sure you don’t want to go to hell.

Peace

One may receive the Holy Spirit at confirmation. If you reject that Spirit He will not force himself upon you. I was not sure if you received confirmation because you spelt it c-o-n-f-o-r-m-a-t-i-o-n. Given your divergent views and seemingly pro-masonic agenda, I was not sure if you really received a Catholic sacrament or a masonic or other one.

I never denied the sacraments please check back my post if you need clarity and show me where I did.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie, I didn’t blame anything on Jesus, Jesus didn’t make any mistakes. People do make mistakes and they are capable of abusing their power. I’ve pointed out just a few of the errors of the people within the Church to show that they can abuse their power and pass off their mistakes as authentic teaching, when they abuse their position, it is not authentic teaching pursuant to the power given to them by Christ. When the Church said the smallpox vaccine was evil, it was a declaration of moral teaching, it was wrong, it was not authentic teaching. You are the one that said I was in mortal sin, in CAPS I might add.

Peace

Good now show me where the CHurch ever exercised it position and said that mistakes make by other Popes were authentic teaching?

Just like the Pope quit giving us wine when the aids was around and the effects of it were unknown. He had the right to protect us. When he found out we cannot contract aids from sharing the wine he brought back the wine. He had the call to make, and he made it.

Now probally a hundred years from now you will get a person who like you do not understand the Pope and his position at the time will accuse him of being evil and trying to take the true blood from heaven from us. See what I am saying.

there are times he MUST do things until he can be sure that we are safe. I do not know about the small pox and if it is even true, because you have come up with so twisted doosy lately.

But I think you better go back to the old saying there are 3 sides to every story her side his side and the truth. And investigate what you read and read both sides before passing judgement.

 

[rinnie]

Brian let me teach you the true teaching according to your faith about confirmation also.

The protestant view is we ALL have the power of the HS do define scripture.

The Catholic teaching and the teaching of the word and Sacred scripture. go read it, its in the bible is we all have the power of the Holy Spirit to do different things.

SOme are to teach, which means Priests, Popes Bishops. some are to marry which are us, have kids. spread the good news. etc. We do not have the Power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture that was passed on by the laying of hands remember. Remember what was told to Timothy? be Careful who you LAY YOUR HANDS ON? Not everyone is called to do this brian. If so we would all be Priests. etc.

The scripture says stick to the teaching of the Early fathers of the church, why would God say this if he gave us the teaching on our own. Actually why leave us the CHurch?

We are all called to use our gifts given to us by GOd, but we all HAVE different gifts remember scripture?

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Kinja,

I guess if you don’t have anything of substance to say, then make a big deal out of a typo. Are you kidding me?

I guess it would be beneath the Pope to sell some art treasures to help the poor or to let the homeless stay in his palace or his villa, he has only got 10,000 rooms.

Discussion of the fruits of the Catholic Church versus the fruits of Freemasonry might be worth discussing.

Freemasonry has helped bring about scientific knowledge, free and democratic governments, and hospitals that help children for no charge.

The Catholic Church has given us the dark ages, the crusades, the inquisition, murder of dissenters, murder of native americans, intolerance, hatred of the jews, hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, a lavish lifestyle for an elite class of clerics, suppression of knowledge and science, the systematic rape of children, and the systematic protection of rapists. I don’t think you could get any further from the message of Jesus, so the only thing that surprises me is that you can claim this is Christ’s Church and manage to do it with a straight face.

Peace my friend

 

[kinja]

Good now show me where the CHurch ever exercised it position and said that mistakes make by other Popes were authentic teaching?

Just like the Pope quit giving us wine when the aids was around and the effects of it were unknown. He had the right to protect us. When he found out we cannot contract aids from sharing the wine he brought back the wine. He had the call to make, and he made it.

Now probally a hundred years from now you will get a person who like you do not understand the Pope and his position at the time will accuse him of being evil and trying to take the true blood from heaven from us. See what I am saying.

there are times he MUST do things until he can be sure that we are safe. I do not know about the small pox and if it is even true, because you have come up with so twisted doosy lately.

But I think you better go back to the old saying there are 3 sides to every story her side his side and the truth. And investigate what you read and read both sides before passing judgement.

I don’t think he is reading anything much not written by masons or anti-Catholics. He believes in the Masons apparently having forsaken the Church’s teachings on membership in masonic organisations and other movements which conspire against the Catholic Church. And don’t tell me that Masons don’t conspire against the Church because you said you were not a mason yourself so how could you know what their agenda truly is for sure? I am a Catholic and I am stating a Catholic position on the matter like the rest of our friends in here. You claim not to be a member (and even claim to be a Catholic )
yet you defend them as though you were a member.

Just come clean. What makes you so sure about the freemasons? Why choose to believe a minority of priests over the ruling of the magesterium and and so many more other priest who condemn membership in freemasonry?

 

[regression]

Hi Kinja,

I guess if you don’t have anything of substance to say, then make a big deal out of a typo. Are you kidding me?

I guess it would be beneath the Pope to sell some art treasures to help the poor or to let the homeless stay in his palace or his villa, he has only got 10,000 rooms.

Discussion of the fruits of the Catholic Church versus the fruits of Freemasonry might be worth discussing.

Freemasonry has helped bring about scientific knowledge, free and democratic governments, and hospitals that help children for no charge.

The Catholic Church has given us the dark ages, the crusades, the inquisition, murder of dissenters, murder of native americans, intolerance, hatred of the jews, hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, a lavish lifestyle for an elite class of clerics, suppression of knowledge and science, the systematic rape of children, and the systematic protection of rapists. I don’t think you could get any further from the message of Jesus, so the only thing that surprises me is that you can claim this is Christ’s Church and manage to do it with a straight face.

Peace my friend

Brian, you leave me scratching my head. With your apparent disdain for the Catholic Church, why do you choose to remain it in if it is so bad? What do you agree with the Church about? The Real Presence, sacramental confession?

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think he is reading anything much not written by masons or anti-Catholics. He believes in the Masons apparently having forsaken the Church’s teachings on membership in masonic organisations and other movements which conspire against the Catholic Church. And don’t tell me that Masons don’t conspire against the Church because you said you were not a mason yourself so how could you know what their agenda truly is for sure? I am a Catholic and I am stating a Catholic position on the matter like the rest of our friends in here. You claim not to be a member (and even claim to be a Catholic )
yet you defend them as though you were a member.

Just come clean. What makes you so sure about the freemasons? Why choose to believe a minority of priests over the ruling of the magesterium and and so many more other priest who condemn membership in freemasonry?

I want to believe in my heart he is just confused and does not know his faith. But then for being Catholic how can he not know ANY of our teachings.

Our Pope said its goes against the Church, I know they hate us deep inside. I had a Father in law and they HATED the pope in his lodge. ALL OF EM.

He tried to pull that bull on my husband also and say your POPE said its okay. HE never did. He confirmed a teaching that was always taught. He said no.

Lets pray for Brian and do the Catholic thing right now.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Kinja,

I guess if you don’t have anything of substance to say, then make a big deal out of a typo. Are you kidding me?

I guess it would be beneath the Pope to sell some art treasures to help the poor or to let the homeless stay in his palace or his villa, he has only got 10,000 rooms.

Discussion of the fruits of the Catholic Church versus the fruits of Freemasonry might be worth discussing.

Freemasonry has helped bring about scientific knowledge, free and democratic governments, and hospitals that help children for no charge.

The Catholic Church has given us the dark ages, the crusades, the inquisition, murder of dissenters, murder of native americans, intolerance, hatred of the jews, hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, a lavish lifestyle for an elite class of clerics, suppression of knowledge and science, the systematic rape of children, and the systematic protection of rapists. I don’t think you could get any further from the message of Jesus, so the only thing that surprises me is that you can claim this is Christ’s Church and manage to do it with a straight face.

Peace my friend

Oh my. Lots of Prayers. Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME, Who are You? Jesus the one you are persecuting.

Jesus and his Church are ONE. Saul was persecuting the Catholic Church.

Brian you have no peace in your heart, you are full of hate and persecution of our Church, which we call the Living Christ. You really need to take some time with the HOly Spirit and rid yourself of all the anger. The Holy Spirit will never come until you let go of this hate and anger

 

[Brian_H]

Brian, you leave me scratching my head. With your apparent disdain for the Catholic Church, why do you choose to remain it in if it is so bad? What do you agree with the Church about? The Real Presence, sacramental confession?

Hi Regression,

It is much easier to point out what I disagree with. A few aspects of moral teaching that I feel represent abuses of authority rather than authentic teaching inspired by the Holy Spirit, material excesses by a handful of elite members of the clergy, and protecting the image and assets of the Church rather than children during the sex abuse scandal.

This of course makes me a “cafeteria Catholic” and I am everything that is wrong with the Church while the “traditional” Catholics are without any guilt.

Peace

 

[TevereNauta]

Hi Kinja,

I guess if you don’t have anything of substance to say, then make a big deal out of a typo. Are you kidding me?

I guess it would be beneath the Pope to sell some art treasures to help the poor or to let the homeless stay in his palace or his villa, he has only got 10,000 rooms.

Discussion of the fruits of the Catholic Church versus the fruits of Freemasonry might be worth discussing.

Freemasonry has helped bring about scientific knowledge, free and democratic governments, and hospitals that help children for no charge.

The Catholic Church has given us the dark ages, the crusades, the inquisition, murder of dissenters, murder of native americans, intolerance, hatred of the jews, hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, a lavish lifestyle for an elite class of clerics, suppression of knowledge and science, the systematic rape of children, and the systematic protection of rapists. I don’t think you could get any further from the message of Jesus, so the only thing that surprises me is that you can claim this is Christ’s Church and manage to do it with a straight face.

Peace my friend

Forgive me if I am missing something, Brian, but you say these things (above) and call yourself a Catholic? A little confused, what you have stated is something like a Masonic Jack Chick—if such a creature were to exist—might say. Were you being sarcastic, ironic, attempting a joke? I’m a little lost. Or, perhaps, are you one of the Call to Action subscribers, if which case I understand your points perfectly.

The errors of your condemnation of the Church are matched only by your errors in praising the Masonic movement. You say the Freemasons gave us democratic governments—you mean the Terror in France, the Revolution is Russia (yes, Kerensky was a Mason), the anti-clerical persecutions in Mexico, the bloody Civil War in Spain? Yes, those were democratic in that in each instance a mob of the demos, people, enjoyed—yes, enjoyed and reveled in—slaughtering innocent people. I am not even alleging some grand, Masonic conspiracy mind you, just pointing out that those who praise ostensibly Masonic ‘actions’ are, in reality, neither friends of the Church nor of Christ.

As for condemning the Church I may respond re the Dark Ages, on a secular level, that were it not for the Church Western Civilization as we know it. We would have languished in a sort of pagan barbarism, the type which is now making great inroads into the west. On a religious level the Church has transmitted the message of Christ (and His Ministry) successfully for over 2000 years. The remainder of your comments are really too vile, spurious, anecdotal and borderline madcap for me bothering to respond to: they are comments more appropriate on the Yahoo news boards than on CAF.

Might I suggest you pursue your ‘lines of thought’ there?

 

[kinja]

Hi Kinja,

I guess if you don’t have anything of substance to say, then make a big deal out of a typo. Are you kidding me?

I guess it would be beneath the Pope to sell some art treasures to help the poor or to let the homeless stay in his palace or his villa, he has only got 10,000 rooms.

Discussion of the fruits of the Catholic Church versus the fruits of Freemasonry might be worth discussing.

Freemasonry has helped bring about scientific knowledge, free and democratic governments, and hospitals that help children for no charge.

The Catholic Church has given us the dark ages, the crusades, the inquisition, murder of dissenters, murder of native americans, intolerance, hatred of the jews, hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, a lavish lifestyle for an elite class of clerics, suppression of knowledge and science, the systematic rape of children, and the systematic protection of rapists. I don’t think you could get any further from the message of Jesus, so the only thing that surprises me is that you can claim this is Christ’s Church and manage to do it with a straight face.

Peace my friend

OK just making sure it was a typo. Thanks for clearing that up. We can’t be too sure cause there are many a wolf in sheep’s clothing who come in here to stir up trouble and preach heresey and anti-catholic half truths, lies and inuendos

Nice job in exposing what you really are though. You are clearly no Catholic if you truly hold those views. BTW the Catholic Church has contributed far more in the areas of scientific knowledge, free and democratic governments, and hospitals that help children for no charge than any masonic organisation. If you knew anything about freemasonry you would know that they support facism and communism over democracy. Democracy is only a means to an end (communism) for them.

Without Catholic charity groups and causes the US government alone would have to spend hundreds of millions more on social services.

Many of institutes of higher learning were founded by the Catholic Church. Please get your facts straight (and your mind) and stop posting lies lies lies on the internet.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

Hi Regression,

It is much easier to point out what I disagree with. A few aspects of moral teaching that I feel represent abuses of authority rather than authentic teaching inspired by the Holy Spirit, material excesses by a handful of elite members of the clergy, and protecting the image and assets of the Church rather than children during the sex abuse scandal.

This of course makes me a “cafeteria Catholic” and I am everything that is wrong with the Church while the “traditional” Catholics are without any guilt.

Peace

You show me ONE teaching that the Pope ANY pope has ever said that goes against the WORD of GOD. JUST one.

Jesus said when you speak in the name of the Holy Spirit you speak in my name. THe gates of hades will never prevail.

If the Pope ANY pope or BISHOP have ever spoke and said that they SPOKE in the name of the Holy Spirit and they lied then GOD lied. Because Jesus promised us it would NEVER HAPPEN.

GOd never lied, NO POPE or BISHOP has ever spoken in ex-cathedra and done this. WHEN they spoke GOd kept his promise and it was in his voice. I am sorry you have such a confused ideal of the teachings of the RCC. But please do not blame the Pope for that too.

 

[rinnie]

Now Brian please answer my question. I asked you numerous times.

How can there be a God or other SUPREME BEING? Who is above God? Please answer this for me? Explain me the Mason oath?

Well the POPE said its not possible. There is only ONE GOD and no supreme being over him. You either accept the truth or you reject it.

 

[regression]

Hi Regression,

It is much easier to point out what I disagree with. A few aspects of moral teaching that I feel represent abuses of authority rather than authentic teaching inspired by the Holy Spirit, material excesses by a handful of elite members of the clergy, and protecting the image and assets of the Church rather than children during the sex abuse scandal.

This of course makes me a “cafeteria Catholic” and I am everything that is wrong with the Church while the “traditional” Catholics are without any guilt.

Peace

Yes, there have been members of the Church who have sinned, some of them grievously. However, I don’t understand why you say that means the Catholic Church can’t be Christ’s Church. What did Jesus mean when he said the gates of hell won’t prevail against it? If not the Catholic Church, what “church” is Jesus talking about?

 

[Brian_H]

Hi gang,

I’ve got good news, this “cafeteria” Catholic is heading for the door, so long, I’ll try not to let it hit me in the backside on my way out.
You “traditional” Catholics with all your hate, intolerance, and judgment are free to fix all the problems caused by us “cafeteria” Catholics in the last 40 years. So you enjoy yourself, I’m sure mass attendance and vocations will sky rocket after were gone. Just ask Michael Voris, your mouthpiece. But in 40 years, after the “traditional” Catholics are through destroying the Church and running it into the ground, please, don’t ask me to come back.

Peace