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regression
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Are you familiar with Sacred Tradition or the Magisterium? If so you know we don’t have to go back and talk personal to the Early Church Fathers.
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Brian_H
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I was criticized for citing information from books to support an argument because I lacked first hand knowledge. I only made those arguments to show how flawed it was for that person to use that rationale.
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regression
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Oh, I must have missed that. Lots of posts on this thread, sorry I overlooked some.
However, things are a bit different when talking about the Church, since we have a living tradition.
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jam070406
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You’re the one arguing. Against the Church. What’s absurd is you still defending Freemasonry.
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jam070406
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You made the claim that Masonry doesn’t plot against the Church as if you’ve been privy to high levels Masonic conversations in the Lodge.
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jam070406
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Christian democracy. Truth is not a democracy. But you as a Catholic should be well informed about the role of the Papacy and the Bishops.
Where does he say freedom is sinful btw? Cite please.
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Brian_H
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Humanum Genus, 1884, men are not equal and democratic governments are the kingdom of satan. If you disagree with this, then you are a heretic.
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Brian_H
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Full text at he Vatican’s website:
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html
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TrentCath
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I’m sure people on this thread are fully aware that no less than eight popes condemned Freemasonry almost continously from 1738-1902 and in no uncertain terms. Below I quote just a small part of the numerous encyclical condeming Freemasonry, its ideals and beliefs.
The infamous Papal Bull of Pope Clement XII In Eminenti Apostalus forbid catholic participaton in masonic lodges on pain of excommunication, its logic can best be summed up in this quote ‘But it is in the nature of crime to betray itself and to show itself by its attendant clamor. Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light’ The bull even called on Inquisitors to investigate suspected freemasons and to have recourse to the secular arm if need be.
Pope Pius IX calls Freemasonry ‘the synagogue of satan’ "**28. Some of you may perchance wonder that the war against the Catholic Church extends so widely. Indeed each of you knows well the nature, zeal, and intention of sects, whether called Masonic or some other name. When he compares them with the nature, purpose, and amplitude of the conflict waged nearly everywhere against the Church, he cannot doubt but that the present calamity must be attributed to their deceits and machinations for the most part. For from these the synagogue of Satan is formed which draws up its forces, advances its standards, and joins battle against the Church of Christ.
The infamous Papal Bull of Pope Clement XII In Eminenti Apostalus forbid catholic participaton in masonic lodges on pain of excommunication, its logic can best be summed up in this quote ‘But it is in the nature of crime to betray itself and to show itself by its attendant clamor. Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light’ The bull even called on Inquisitors to investigate suspected freemasons and to have recourse to the secular arm if need be.
Pope Pius IX calls Freemasonry ‘the synagogue of satan’ "**28. Some of you may perchance wonder that the war against the Catholic Church extends so widely. Indeed each of you knows well the nature, zeal, and intention of sects, whether called Masonic or some other name. When he compares them with the nature, purpose, and amplitude of the conflict waged nearly everywhere against the Church, he cannot doubt but that the present calamity must be attributed to their deceits and machinations for the most part. For from these the synagogue of Satan is formed which draws up its forces, advances its standards, and joins battle against the Church of Christ.
- Our Predecessors, as watchers in Israel, denounced these forces from the very beginnings to rulers and nations. Against them they have struck out again and again with their condemnations. We Ourselves have not been deficient in Our duty. Would that the Pastors of the Church had more loyalty from those who could have averted such a pernicious plague! But, creeping through sinuous openings, never stinting in toil, deceiving many by clever fraud, it has reached such an outcome that it has burst forth from its hiding places and boasts itself lord and master. Grown immense by a multitude of followers, these nefarious bands think that they have been made masters of their desire and have all but achieved their goal. The have at last achieved what they have so long desired, that is, that in many places they obtained supreme power and won for themselves bulwarks of men and authority. Now they boldly turn to this, to hand over the Church of God to a most harsh servitude, to tear up the supports on which it rests, and to attempt to distort the marks by which it stands out gloriously. What more? They would, if possible, completely wipe it out from the world after they had shaken it with frequent blows, ruined it, and overturned it**. "
- It is well to trace from the beginning the different phases of this warfare.
- The war began by the overthrow of the civil power of the Popes, the downfall of which, according to the secret intentions of the real leaders, afterwards openly avowed, was, under a political pretext, to be the means of enslaving at least, if not of destroying the supreme spiritual power of the Roman Pontiffs.
—That no doubt might remain as to the true object of this warfare, there followed quickly the suppression of the Religious Orders; and thereby a great reduction in the number of evangelical laborers for the propagation of the faith amongst the heathens, and for the sacred ministry and religious service of Catholic countries.**"
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Brian_H
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So, since these Popes believed in conspiracies, without any evidence, then there must be a conspiracy. Very logical.
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TrentCath
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Not sure exactly what you’re saying here to be honest, do us all a favour and go and READ the encyclicals on the subject before speaking or rather writing.
The arguments the popes deploy are actually rather convincing as is their evidence, so where you got the idea of their being no evidence is beyond me
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jam070406
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Can point out where he specifically says these things?
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jam070406
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"The Pope, whoever he is, will never come to the secret societies: it is up to the secret societies to take the first step towards the Church, with the aim of conquering both of them. The task that we are going to undertake is not the work of a day, or of a month, or of a year; it may last several years, perhaps a century; but in our ranks the soldier dies and the struggle goes on.
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/freemasonry/frmasn.htm
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Brian_H
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I have friend, in fact a link to the most recent encyclical is just above your post. I’m using evidence in a technical, legal sense, as in providing proof which supports an argument rather than speculation and conjecture. I will grant you, the encyclicals are full of speculation and conjecture, I guess that is what you define as evidence.Not sure exactly what you’re saying here to be honest, do us all a favour and go and READ the encyclicals on the subject before speaking or rather writing.
The arguments the popes deploy are actually rather convincing as is their evidence, so where you got the idea of their being no evidence is beyond me
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jam070406
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I gave you evidence above your post.
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Brian_H
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Then come their doctrines of politics, in which the naturalists lay down that all men have the same right, and are in every respect of equal and like condition; that each one is naturally free; that no one has the right to command another; that it is an act of violence to require men to obey any authority other than that which is obtained from themselves. According to this, therefore, all things belong to the free people; power is held by the command or permission of the people, so that, when the popular will changes, rulers may lawfully be deposed and the source of all rights and civil duties is either in the multitude or in the governing authority when this is constituted according to the latest doctrines. It is held also that the State should be without God; that in the various forms of religion there is no reason why one should have precedence of another; and that they are all to occupy the same place.
But, as the abilities of all are not equal, as one differs from another in the powers of mind or body, and as there are very many dissimilarities of manner, disposition, and character, it is most repugnant to reason to endeavor to confine all within the same measure, and to extend complete equality to the institutions of civic life.
There is a couple choice nuggets of infallible wisdom. Why don’t you try reading it for yourself, I’m sorry it’s long.
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Brian_H
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That is not a Masonic document. It is claimed (and not verified) by the Catholic Church and masonic conspiracy theorists to be from the Italian Carbonari, which they claim is a high level masonic lodge. Italian Carbonari is not part of Freemasonry. Are you going to try to cite some info from the Leo Taxil hoax as well?
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jam070406
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So you believe the state should be without God and godless men should be able to create whatever laws that contradict the Gospels that they wants like, slavery, abortion, etc. And that the Pope should declare that all religions are equal? You don’t believe, as the Pope, that the Catholic religion is the one, true religion?
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jam070406
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Well, it’s a secret, don’t you know.
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Brian_H
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I’m a former Marine, I fought for this country and I believe in the First Amendment. If you don’t have any respect for freedom or the U.S. Constitution then GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY! I won’t let any fanatical religion create a theocracy in my country, whether it be Muslims trying to impose Sharia Law, evangelical fundamentalists, or the Catholic Church.
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