concerns about freemasonry

[At_Trent]

:banghead:
It’s disappointing when people are so afraid of an organization they don’t understand.

No fear, just acceptance of the fact that the Church has determined no good can come of a Catholic joining these anti-Catholic groups.

 

[At_Trent]

Because your question was a strawman. Unless there is a secret oath to some grand architect, in rehab or scouts, that allows for one to be dismembered if broken.
Which would be a violation of the True God’s law, which would mean it is forbid.
Swearing such an oath would not be approved by God, therefore it doesn’t come from the Holy Spirit but from the enemy.

Exactly.

 

[EzraJacob]

Fr. Haydock lived in the late 18th and early 19th century, I believe that alone establishes he is not a Church Father.

I wasn’t quoting Haydock, but quoting what he said about St. Augustine.

I don’t think what you have supplied from St. Augustine supports your argument. Would you explain why you think what you’ve posted supports your argument? I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m just not sure that what you’ve quoted supports what you are claiming it does.

It supports the St. Augustine claimed
;

I have said in a certain place of the Apostle Peter, that it was on him, as on a rock, that the Church was built. But I know that since that I have often explained these words of the Lord, you are Peter, and on this rock will I build my Church, as meaning upon Him whom Peter had confessed in the words, You are Christ, the Son of the living God; and so that Peter, taking his name from this rock, would represent the Church, which is built upon this rock. For it is not said to him, you art the rock, but, you are Peter. But the rock was Christ, whom because Simon thus confessed, as the whole Church confesses Him, he was named Peter. Let the reader choose whether of these two opinions seems to him the more probable.

Peter represents the Church which was built upon this rock (Christ). Or that it was on Peter as Peter being the rock the church of Christ to be built upon. Neither of these two opinions condemn the Authority of Peter, but reinforce the belief.

I also quoted Cyrill as saying

According to this promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud, above all Heads and Bishops, and Primates of Churches and people, with its own Pontiffs, with most abundant faith, and the authority of Peter. And while other Churches have to blush for the error of some of their members, this reigns alone immovably established, enforcing silence, and stopping the mouths of all heretics; and we, not drunken with the wine of pride, confess together with it the type of truth, and of the holy apostolic tradition.

In believing Papal Authority. Its not Apostolic if the roles are not passed down by the successors.

Again, if you think this is wrong, please explain. You still have never proven your claim that St. Augustine didn’t believe. In fact, you haven’t proven anything you have claimed.

I would also point out that the New Testament makes it plain that Peter himself made tremendous errors both before and after Jesus died. When, for instance, Jesus insisted that he had to go up to Jerusalem where he would be crucified, Peter protested so much that Jesus called him a “satan” in his path.

Jerome says and I agree

We have often said that Peter had too hot a zeal, and a very great affection towards the Lord the Savior. Therefore after that his confession, and the reward of which he had heard from the Savior, he would not have that his confession destroyed, and thought it impossible that the Son of God could be put to death, but takes Him to him affectionately, or takes Him aside that he may not seem to be rebuking his Master in the presence of his fellow disciples, and begins to chide Him with the feeling of one that loved Him, and to contradict Him, and say, Be it far from you, Lord; or as it is better in the Greek, that is, Be propitious to Thyself, Lord, this shall not be to you.

He was affectionate about the Lord. The Christ he loved so much was talking about being killed. If someone I loved said such I would rebuke them to. No one wants to see their loved one die.

Chrysostom says

For what wonder is it that this should befall Peter, who had never received a revelation concerning these things? For that you may learn that that confession which he made concerning Christ was not spoken of himself, observe how in these things which had not been revealed to him, he is at a loss. Estimating the things of Christ by human and earthly principles, he judged it mean and unworthy of Him that He should suffer. Therefore the Lord added, For you savor not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

After Jesus’ resurrection, Peter made an equally bad blunder. “Heresy” is not too bad a word for it. Gratian, a canon lawyer, said in 1150: “Peter compelled the gentiles to live as Jews and to depart from gospel truths”.

Where is this?

And just a side question. Why do you insist on being a Catholic, when being a Catholic involves complete loyalty to the Papacy?

 

[kinja]

I wasn’t quoting Haydock, but quoting what he said about St. Augustine.

It supports the St. Augustine claimed
;
Peter represents the Church which was built upon this rock (Christ). Or that it was on Peter as Peter being the rock the church of Christ to be built upon. Neither of these two opinions condemn the Authority of Peter, but reinforce the belief.

I also quoted Cyrill as saying
In believing Papal Authority. Its not Apostolic if the roles are not passed down by the successors.

Again, if you think this is wrong, please explain. You still have never proven your claim that St. Augustine didn’t believe. In fact, you haven’t proven anything you have claimed.

Jerome says and I agree
He was affectionate about the Lord. The Christ he loved so much was talking about being killed. If someone I loved said such I would rebuke them to. No one wants to see their loved one die.

Chrysostom says

Where is this?

And just a side question. Why do you insist on being a Catholic, when being a Catholic involves complete loyalty to the Papacy?

Good question. I don’t think he is Catholic anymore (if he ever was) if he really believes these things he is posting. Being Catholic is more than “believing and accepting Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour” and in the same breath disregarding the authority of His Bride the Church.

I don’t think he has accepted that fact. Alot of what he is saying indicates that he has excommunicated himself from the Catholic church by default. No one has to excommunicate him because I think he may have done it all by himself.

We need to pray for him.

 

[Brian_H]

Good question. I don’t think he is Catholic anymore (if he ever was) if he really believes these things he is posting. Being Catholic is more than “believing and accepting Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour” and in the same breath disregarding the authority of His Bride the Church.
I don’t think he has accepted that fact. Alot of what he is saying indicates that he has excommunicated himself from the Catholic church by default. No one has to excommunicate him because I think he may have done it all by himself.
We need to pray for him.

Thank you for trying to threaten me with excommunication, that is very charitable and Christian of you. The majority of Catholics in this country disagree with the Church’s position on at least one of the following positions: birth control, ordination of women, abortion, homosexuality, divorce. Therefore, the majority of Catholics in this country disregard the authority of the Church to control people and try to micromanage every aspect of their lives. I’ve only pointed out that the Church’s hostility toward Freemasonry is without justification. I think you should let the majority of American Catholics know that they have excommunicated themselves, I encourage you to do that, let people know that the Catholic Church is controlled by the extreme right wing, intolerant fanatics that appear to not have a clue about what Christ taught. Let them know that anyone that doesn’t share their narrowminded opinions are not welcome. I’m sure that you will increase mass attendance and vocations by implementing this policy.

 

[Brian_H]

Because your question was a strawman. Unless there is a secret oath to some grand architect, in rehab or scouts, that allows for one to be dismembered if broken.
Which would be a violation of the True God’s law, which would mean it is forbid.
Swearing such an oath would not be approved by God, therefore it doesn’t come from the Holy Spirit but from the enemy.

You still haven’t responded at all to what I raised in my post.

 

[kinja]

Good question. I don’t think he is Catholic anymore (if he ever was) if he really believes these things he is posting. Being Catholic is more than “believing and accepting Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour” and in the same breath disregarding the authority of His Bride the Church.

I don’t think he has accepted that fact. Alot of what he is saying indicates that he has excommunicated himself from the Catholic church by default. No one has to excommunicate him because I think he may have done it all by himself.

We need to pray for him.

If it was OK for Brian or anyone else to disregard the teachings of the Church based on their own information or beliefs or feelings then the Church would not have stood the test of time. 2011 years and counting have we had to put up with heretics and others beguiled by satan to fragment the Church that Jesus built, and we are still here and will be until Our Lord comes again.

If reading a few books from unverified and unrecognized sources could cast doubt on thousands of years of tradition and sound teaching then it’s a miracle that the Church is still alive.

 

[Brian_H]

If it was OK for Brian or anyone else to disregard the teachings of the Church based on their own information or beliefs or feelings then the Church would not have stood the test of time. 2011 years and counting have we had to put up with heretics and others beguiled by satan to fragment the Church that Jesus built, and we are still here and will be until Our Lord comes again.

If reading a few books from unverified and unrecognized sources could cast doubt on thousands of years of tradition and sound teaching then it’s a miracle that the Church is still alive.

Put up with heretics? Don’t you mean slaughtering them and burning them at the stake?
I hope you get ahold of the USCCB and have them put out the message that the majority of Catholics in this country have excommunicated themselves and are not welcome. Of course the Church’s moral teaching has never been wrong, the printing press and the smallpox vaccine are evil, correct?

 

[EzraJacob]

You still haven’t responded at all to what I raised in my post.

Same can be said to you while talking with me.

You keep dodging many questions and challenges I have made towards you.

 

[kinja]

Thank you for trying to threaten me with excommunication, that is very charitable and Christian of you. The majority of Catholics in this country disagree with the Church’s position on at least one of the following positions: birth control, ordination of women, abortion, homosexuality, divorce. Therefore, the majority of Catholics in this country disregard the authority of the Church to control people and try to micromanage every aspect of their lives. I’ve only pointed out that the Church’s hostility toward Freemasonry is without justification. I think you should let the majority of American Catholics know that they have excommunicated themselves, I encourage you to do that, let people know that the Catholic Church is controlled by the extreme right wing, intolerant fanatics that appear to not have a clue about what Christ taught. Let them know that anyone that doesn’t share their narrowminded opinions are not welcome. I’m sure that you will increase mass attendance and vocations by implementing this policy.

First of all, since when has the truth been determined by the general consensus? If that were the case then Jesus’ message should not have been received at all as it was quite unpopular in it’s day by the majority.

Secondly this “majority” you speak of must be documented somewhere right? Where are your sources for this exact statistic?

Thirdly the Church’s position on freemasonry is very much justified as all the posters here have been trying to get through to you it’s princilples stand in contrast to those of the Church and it is a religion not just a frat as you say.

Forthly the Church is consistent in it’s position wrt abortion and contraception, female priests, homosexuality and divorce. Jesus and his apostles held all these positions and so does the Church as Jesus’ bride. Fashion may dictate whether homosexuality and abortion is “the current mode of things” but God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow much like the position of the Churhc on these matters.

Fifth you are NOT a Catholic. You have excommunicated YOURSELF. I am not threatening you. I am stating a fact. If you had all the symptoms of a sick man and I said you were sick would you say that I was making you sick by calling it? You obviously do not understand what excommunication or Catholicism is my friend.

 

[EzraJacob]

Thank you for trying to threaten me with excommunication, that is very charitable and Christian of you. The majority of Catholics in this country disagree with the Church’s position on at least one of the following positions: birth control, ordination of women, abortion, homosexuality, divorce. Therefore, the majority of Catholics in this country disregard the authority of the Church to control people and try to micromanage every aspect of their lives. I’ve only pointed out that the Church’s hostility toward Freemasonry is without justification. I think you should let the majority of American Catholics know that they have excommunicated themselves, I encourage you to do that, let people know that the Catholic Church is controlled by the extreme right wing, intolerant fanatics that appear to not have a clue about what Christ taught. Let them know that anyone that doesn’t share their narrowminded opinions are not welcome. I’m sure that you will increase mass attendance and vocations by implementing this policy.

It was said, americanism is the modern heresy

 

[kinja]

Put up with heretics? Don’t you mean slaughtering them and burning them at the stake?
I hope you get ahold of the USCCB and have them put out the message that the majority of Catholics in this country have excommunicated themselves and are not welcome. Of course the Church’s moral teaching has never been wrong, the printing press and the smallpox vaccine are evil, correct?

Maybe the majority of Americans have in fact done so. Does that mean that they are all right? Were the masses who laughed at Noah while he was building the Ark right? As I remember they were all drowned due to their own ignorance of the truth.

Also: morality of small pox vaccine and the printing press?? Sources please??

 

[EzraJacob]

Morality of small pox vaccine and the printing press?? Sources please??

Don’t hold your breath. I am still waiting for him to prove alot of his claims.

One being St. Augustine plainly denying Papal Authority

 

[Brian_H]

First of all, since when has the truth been determined by the general consensus? If that were the case then Jesus’ message should not have been received at all as it was quite unpopular in it’s day by the majority.

Secondly this “majority” you speak of must be documented somewhere right? Where are your sources for this exact statistic?

Thirdly the Church’s position on freemasonry is very much justified as all the posters here have been trying to get through to you it’s princilples stand in contrast to those of the Church and it is a religion not just a frat as you say.

Forthly the Church is consistent in it’s position wrt abortion and contraception, female priests, homosexuality and divorce. Jesus and his apostles held all these positions and so does the Church as Jesus’ bride. Fashion may dictate whether homosexuality and abortion is “the current mode of things” but God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow much like the position of the Churhc on these matters.

Fifth you are NOT a Catholic. You have excommunicated YOURSELF. I am not threatening you. I am stating a fact. If you had all the symptoms of a sick man and I said you were sick would you say that I was making you sick by calling it? You obviously do not understand what excommunication or Catholicism is my friend.

Here are numbers from gallup: gallup.com/poll/117154/catholics-similar-mainstream-abortion-stem-cells.aspx

Let the majority of Catholics in this country know they have excommunicated themselves and are not welcome. You are NOT a follower of Christ, you are a narrowminded, judgmental hate-monger.

 

[Brian_H]

Don’t hold your breath. I am still waiting for him to prove alot of his claims.

One being St. Augustine plainly denying Papal Authority

I’ve only got so much time to respond, and I get attacked by ten people at once, so it’s hard to keep up.

 

[kinja]

Here are numbers from gallup: gallup.com/poll/117154/catholics-similar-mainstream-abortion-stem-cells.aspx

Let the majority of Catholics in this country know they have excommunicated themselves and are not welcome. You are NOT a follower of Christ, you are a narrowminded, judgmental hate-monger.

Read the Bible and see what happens to you when you follow the crowd instead of the truth. Jesus didn’t leave us the gallop poll. He established a Church on earth to spread His infallible word and that Church is the Catholic Church. Turn it which way you wish that is the truth.

You can follow the majority all you like and see where it leads you. I’ll stick to following the Church that Jesus built on Earth.

God bless.

 

[Brian_H]

Read the Bible and see what happens to you when you follow the crowd instead of the truth. Jesus didn’t leave us the gallop poll. He established a Church on earth to spread His infallible word and that Church is the Catholic Church. Turn it which way you wish that is the truth.

You can follow the majority all you like and see where it leads you. I’ll stick to following the Church that Jesus built on Earth.

God bless.

Read the Bible and see what happens when you behave like the Pharisees.
I’m not pointing out what the majority believe to establish they are right, I’m pointing it out to help you kick them out of the Catholic Church. So call the USCCB and let them know that the majority of Catholics in this country have excommunicated themselves because they disagree with some aspect of Catholic moral teaching. Like I said, get rid of all the heretics and I’m sure mass attendance and vocations will increase overnight.

 

[EzraJacob]

Read the Bible and see what happens when you behave like the Pharisees.
I’m not pointing out what the majority believe to establish they are right, I’m pointing it out to help you kick them out of the Catholic Church. So call the USCCB and let them know that the majority of Catholics in this country have excommunicated themselves because they disagree with some aspect of Catholic moral teaching. Like I said,** get rid of all the heretics and I’m sure mass attendance and vocations will increase overnight**.

Its sad how cafeteria catholics hold this over the heads of thous who are faithful.

 

[EzraJacob]

I’ve only got so much time to respond, and I get attacked by ten people at once, so it’s hard to keep up.

Do you truly mean, when someone proves you wrong, and asks for proof of what you claim, you just ignore them.

 

[Brian_H]

Do you truly mean, when someone proves you wrong, and asks for proof of what you claim, you just ignore them.

This is the last post I’m going to put on this thread and probably one of the last posts I’ll put on Catholic Answers. To respond to your post that I quoted, I’ve provided facts which back up my points several times in response to other posts. When I have, they have been ignored or people have posted a response with arguments that were irrelevant to the point I was trying to make in an attempt to spin the discussion away from the point I raised. So, why go to the trouble of providing facts when they are going to be ignored or spun by people that seem to have an agenda, an agenda of defending the image of the Catholic Church at all costs, writing posts that spin or ignore facts to achieve that end, and people trying to do whatever must be done to make the Church look good. I feel like there are people on here that try harder to be like Bill Donahue than Jesus. I’m not sure that I even want to remain Catholic after what I have experienced on this thread. The attitude of many of the people on Catholic Answers makes me doubt that the Holy Spirit dwells within them. I’m really starting to believe that the Catholic Church couldn’t care less about Christ’s message and is much more concerned with it’s image, it’s assets, it’s power, and trying to use it’s power to control people. It’s hard for me to believe that I’ve been pushed to this point. I’m not saying this to toot my own horn, but I’m a past Grand Knight in K of C, I’m a sacristan, I’ve been an E.M. in the past, but I’m at least going to resign my sacristan position and I’m probably going to leave the Church. I feel like I’ve seen too much from the laity and the clergy to believe that this is truly Christ’s Church.