Concerns about my priest

[Aramis]

In Re the OP.

During the year that I made $12K, and my wife $15K, we purchased a used oldsmobile luxury wagon AND a residential trailer

At time of purchase, the Olds had a bluebook of more than $10k, and had been originaly a $40K vehicle, and the trailer was sold at $20K.

The Olds was purchased for a mere $6500, counting added warranty, as a near-pristine used car.

Also, a new car loses almost half it’s value once the title changes from the dealership… the padre may have picked up a “slightly used” car for quite a deal.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Let me give the viewpoint of a non-Catholic pastor.

Clergy have weird tax benefits and liabilities (that is, those who have not opted out of social security as conscientious objectors or members of a religious order). So contrary to popular belief, priests and pastors DO pay taxes, and have to pay ALL of their social security. Churches are prohibited by law to pay social security for the ordained.

1. You are considered self-employed for social security purposes, but not for income tax purposes. In the old days, you could file a schedule C and take deductions. No more.
2. However, you CAN arrange with your parish to be reimbursed by voucher. Any expenses used for parish work can be reimbursed, and the reimbursement isn’t taxable income. Where a car comes into place, you can lease a car and write off the expense, take simple mileage deductions, or use actual expense method. So the buying, usage, and costs for a car are a bit different for members of the clergy.

Having said that - like it or not, you DO make a spiritual and theological statement by the vehicles you buy. We minister to the rich and poor alike. What would be the impression someone might take who needs pastoral counsel regarding family finances and struggles who drives up to a church in an aging car and sees the priest or pastor getting out of a new luxury car?

I am given, in my opinion, an extremely generous salary. Having said that, I’ve never bought a new car. I’d rather give my money to the Church, to the poor, and to the mission field.

I have three vehicles: a 2002 Nissan Maxima I bought two years ago that my wife drives, a 1991 BMW that I bought last year and put back together (my hobby is vehicle mechanical work), and a 1993 Yamaha motorcycle I bought four years ago. I paid cash for all of these vehicles, and tend to drive vehicles until they drop. There are far, far better investments and uses of the money God entrusts us with than to purchase a car. A car is a financial liability, never an investment, unless you buy very high end cars - which make a statement in themselves. The math just isn’t there.

Just because you CAN buy something doesn’t mean you always should. And priests and pastors, like it or not, are held to higher accountability and standards by those around us.

Mercedes makes a great car; Germans overengineer their cars and they run great. The good Father in question may be driving an older Mercedes and not a brand new one. Finding an old Mercedes or BMW can make good financial and stewardship sense.

Just don’t buy a Volvo. Especially if you’re Catholic. Someone might mistake you for an Episcopalian.

O+

 

[mystified]

A story of four priests.

Our old pastor, a monsignor, was often asked why he continued to drive a vintage Plymouth instead of buying a new car. His answer was that it got him to and from where he was needed and he was happy with it.

Another former pastor drove a new car about every two years. One of our parishioners was a car dealer and “loaned” them, while keeping ownership in the company name.

A very popular monsignor was given a Cadillac by a consortium of admirers. He drove it until it would not run any more.

Our pastor in rural México buys an near-new pickup truck about every two years. Then after driving it a couple of hundred thousand hard miles, members of the parish help him find a replacement at the best possible price. He is often “paid” with food, and is able to save much of his small income for other necessities.

 

[Conciliar]

Not to nitpik, but? Of course, I may agree that this is the ideal to many who read the document and expect that is how a priest should look and act. But they are not Christ, and many fail in their efforts to present that image. It is not a sin, but an evangelical counsel. To ascribe it as anything more is to become judgemental, and we are forbidden to do that.

My point, and I seem to have a difficult time relaying it, is that there are other more apparent things that also reflect a less-than-ideal image of Christ. Have you known of Guest House in Michigan for alcoholic priests? Have you seen obesity so obvious that a priest needs a cane to walk? Why is the so-called weakness of a luxury car any different?

Well I guess that makes two of us having a difficult time relaying our points. Mine is pretty simple - no one here is justified in treating the OP like he lacks good will for daring to respectfully post a valid concern on this message board.

 

[Joysong]

…no one here is justified in treating the OP like he lacks good will for daring to respectfully post a valid concern on this message board.

The tone of his post does not appear to be a “valid concern” but rather implies judgment of the priest as reprobate, for he has openly said he will leave and return to his regular church. His tone is also detracting of other priests who happen to drive luxury cars, and that is a concern for all of us who read his ‘good will’ comments, since they may wrongly be the cause for another to fall into similar rash judgment. Many posters have offered the help he asked for in efforts to correct his thinking. Whether or not he accepts their advice is his decision.
OP:

I seem to have a gut feeling somethings a little off. I believe I will be returning to my regular church.

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice on the situation. Should I speak to someone about it? I appreciate your help.

For any who are interested: The Danger of Criticizing Priests

 

[Conciliar]

On the one hand, we have an ecumenical Council saying that when priests appear to have vanity in possessions it’s a valid concern. On the other we have Joysong telling us that when a poster expresses just such a concern, it’s invalid. Who to believe?

Now you’ve sunk to the level of parsing his post to demonstrate that he is rash, judgmental, and lacks good will. His most inflamatory comment being that he’ll probably return to his regular church. How dare he!

Look, if it’s that important to you to condemn the guy, fine, have at it. I think you, and a few otehrs, have gone way over the top in bashing the poster. Anyone who rereads his initial post and not just your carefully selected quotes would be hard pressed not to see that he makes a real effort to be respectful.

It’s almost funny to see someone so hell bent on judging another for their judgmentalism. Almost.

 

[Joysong]

On the one hand, we have an ecumenical Council saying that when priests appear to have vanity in possessions it’s a valid concern.

But, my friend, the Council did not say that. It is your private interpretation. From the Decree you posted earlier:

Priests, moreover, are invited to embrace voluntary poverty by which they are more manifestly conformed to Christ and become eager in the sacred ministry. A certain common use of goods, similar to the common possession of goods in the history of the primitive Church, furnishes an excellent means of pastoral charity.

Note the word “invited.” Note that goods may be held in common or by the parish, which none of us, including the OP knows for certain.

• Note that I agreed with you that it is an ideal to strive for as per the invitation.
• Note that the priest is human, and if he has a weakness toward vanity, it does not bar him from pastoring a parish, nor should anyone write to the bishop with a copy of the Vatican 2 Decree.
• Note especially that driving or owning a luxury car is NOT a sin. Believing it is sinful, when a priest is seemingly failing to live out the ‘invitation’ in full perfection, can be sinful matter.
• Note that the pharisees were chided for this same attitude in Lk. 7:33:
  When John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, you say he has a devil. 34. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold a man who is a glutton and a wine-drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners!’
• Note in verse 35 that ‘Wisdom is justified by all her children.’

Therefore, if it is your ‘wisdom’ to judge those of us who disagree with your thinking, so be it.
That is a matter for your own conscience. Have a blessed Sunday!

 

[gradstud35]

I’m not trying to criticize anyone. My point is to please PRAY for your priests. They are human and have the same weaknesses we all do. If you truly believe there is some some sort of moral problem or sin in this situation and are genuinely concerned for him.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

for he has openly said he will leave and return to his regular church. His tone is also detracting of other priests who happen to drive luxury cars

So what’s wrong with him returning to his regular church anyway?
I hope this forum was very helpful to him in that one of his questions, about a priest having limited income was answered, in that a priest may have other sources of income and receive gifts, etc. Perhaps that puts his mind to rest about thinking the parish paid for the car.
The other way it may have helped him is to show there are priests who enjoy fine things, and there are priests who embrace simple living. In both cases, the priest may be a wonderful priest or not. It is up to him to decide which he is more comfortable with.
I have to say I respect the fact that he did mention there were things he found questionable about that particular priest, but since they were his speculations he didn’t mention them. It is really difficult to hold back things that you really want to vent about or at least get people to cosign with you on the sentiment. I personally have been guilty of venting, and even though this forum board is (at least to me) specifically for expression and discussion, I do respect someone who is able to state just the facts in their quest for answers.
I hope Dispector is able to find a church where he is comfortable to worship and give praise to God.

 

[Conciliar]

That does it, Joysong!

But, my friend, the Council did not say that. It is your private interpretation.

Just kidding. Why do I get the sense you really don’t think of me as friend? Hmmmm? I will shoulder some of that blame.

I do think that Mark (the OP) was treated a little harshly here. He never accused the priest of sin, or any such thing. Based on how careful he was to be respectful, I think he truly meant no harm and deserves an assumption of good will, as does the priest. But… the truth is, you deserve the same assumption of good will too.

It is obvious that you honestly love and honor the priesthood. God knows, literally, they deserve every good prayer and bit of support we can give. I am sure you are doing your part and encouraging others to pitch in along the way.

Therefore, if it is your ‘wisdom’…

LOL! I have no wisdom and you know it! You know who has shown the most wisdom in this entire thread? The OP. He hit the road 40 posts ago.

I have always maintained that even when I can’t seem to connect with someone on a matter concerning the faith, if they at least don’t exhibit complacency, it’s a wonderful thing. We’ll connect on another matter later. Based on your passion, I am sure, we’ll click somewhere else soon. Looking forward to it. Enjoy your Sunday, Joysong.

 

[Joysong]

Yes, the OP did leave the thread, and his closing words seem to agree with most of the opinions, and also with some research he did privately. Why are any of us still debating it?

Mark:

Yep, I can see the point to purchasing a reliable vehicle. I did a little snooping around on some old posts in regard to similar topics. I feel a little better after hearing some other opinions on the topic. Maybe I jumped the gun.

It occurred to me that in perhaps a weak moment, a priest could make an elaborate purchase. We wives call it “impulse buying” and vendors know how to put these items in the most attracting spots. How many wives go home regretting their purchase? How about binge ANYTHING, only to regret it later?

And is it possible the priest could have regretted it later, but still be contractually bound for the purchase? It is unwise to go into further debt with sales taxes, transfer fees, etc., in order to scale down.

But we can’t see into this, agreed? Nobody has inside knowledge of another person’s heart, so while the circumstance is apparent to all, the motivation is hidden.

You are correct, Conciliar, that I have the deepest respect for the office of the priesthood, while realizing that there is still human weakness, not to mention the extreme hatred satan has for them. All the more reason to pray, rather than condemn. The just man falls seven times a day, as we know, and I hope that we can all support one another when we see failings. St. Teresa explained that we should be as sorry for the sins of others as though they were our own. That is the true test of whether our heart is walking in charity.

(Yes, I would still call you friend, for we are both in the mystical body of Christ, intimately bound to one another!)

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Joysong:

And is it possible the priest could have regretted it later, but still be contractually bound for the purchase? It is unwise to go into further debt with sales taxes, transfer fees, etc., in order to scale down.

But we can’t see into this, agreed? Nobody has inside knowledge of another person’s heart, so while the circumstance is apparent to all, the motivation is hidden.

Maybe this thread is for me, too, because I have been thinking about the varying scenarios. What we may never see is the humbling penance the priest may be bearing due to this hasty purchase, in having to drive the luxury car and face the probable assumptions that we humans tend to make unjustly. [If God is working on him, it will show up in his mannerisms elsewhere, for sure, but this was not detailed by the OP.]

A good example that has taught me not to judge may be appropriate here. At one time, I was vainly preoccupied with my appearance, wearing elaborate fashions. In the presence of others, I could not pay attention to what they were saying because I was imagining they were admiring my fancy clothes. :doh2: God was working on me all the while, though, making me more and more uncomfortable. That’s the part others couldn’t see.

To cut myself off completely from the temptation, I sewed a uniform dress and from the same pattern, made a shorter top with pants (with a change for laundering). I wore this for six months, and it was painful to imagine the thoughts of others, who may have thought that I was playing the role of a nun. I said nothing to anyone about my motive, just quietly appearing in public with the same plain outfit. It was just what the doctor ordered to change my heart, and I was able to return to street clothes. However, they were very simple, and the temptation has never returned.

I need to figure out what He is working on in me now, that many others already know needs fixing!

I hope this helps.

 

[James_Tetreault]

Anyone, priest or not who spends that kind of money on a material item while there are people starving to death in the world is in my opinion commiting a sin.

 

[benedictgal]

My parochial vicar has had both a Mercedes and a Jaguar, not at the same time. Both of them were used and were not very expensive. But, that was probably one of the few luxuries he ever had. Incidentally, he is probably the most orthodox priest in my diocese. I certainly don’t judge him by what he used to drive. What matters is the way he celebrates the Holy Sacrifice, how he comports himself and his teachings. Even though we have had some real zingers as far as arguments are concerned, what he drives isn’t as important as what drives him.

Incidentally, the Holy Father rides around in a Mercedes. We certainly don’t hold that against him. When Joseph Cardinal Razinger was prefect, he was assigned a used Mercedes as his car (of course, it also came with a driver). His own personal car was as Volkswagen Golf. But, that is neither here nor there.

The point is that we need to look at the person and not what kind of car he drives. We also should look at what drives him. If Christ drives him, then let him have at least one enjoyable possession. So long as we are not possessed by our possessions, that’s fine.

 

[Eucharisted]

I’m not sure if any of you have experienced this issue before.

I’m “testing” a parish. A few friends I know go there and wanted me to come to mass with them. Either way, the other day while we were mulling around outside of the church the priest drove up for Mass. He had just purchased a Mercede-Benz. Does it seem strange a priest would be buying a Mercedes-Benz? I thought they had a limited income and took vows of simple living?

There are a few other things which I have found questionable about him as well, but those are mere speculations so I won’t mention them. I seem to have a gut feeling somethings a little off. I believe I will be returning to my regular church.

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice on the situation. Should I speak to someone about it? I appreciate your help.

Respectfully,
Mark

You could ask him why he has a Benz

And please pray for all the clergy in the world. They need our prayers!

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Anyone, priest or not who spends that kind of money on a material item while there are people starving to death in the world is in my opinion commiting a sin.

Since it is not objectively immoral to buy an expensive car, you are erroneously judging the actions of people who buy them.

Sin is not a matter of opinion. If you think it is sinful to buy flashy cars (assuming the buyer is not neglecting his financial obligations or the needs of his family), then you should act according to your conscience and refrain from such purchases. Even so, it is wrong to condemn the same act by someone else since, again, there is nothing objectively immoral about buying something that is expensive.

What if the buyer is also a wealthy philanthropist who gives generously to the Church every year? What if he owns a soup kitchen? What if he bought that vehicle because he believes in his heart that it is the safest one on the road, and he wants nothing more than the safety of his family?

What if he just wants a fancy car?

None of these is sinful in and of itself.

Peace,
Dante

 

[James_Tetreault]

Since it is not objectively immoral to buy an expensive car, you are erroneously judging the actions of people who buy them.

Sin is not a matter of opinion. If you think it is sinful to buy flashy cars (assuming the buyer is not neglecting his financial obligations or the needs of his family), then you should act according to your conscience and refrain from such purchases. Even so, it is wrong to condemn the same act by someone else since, again, there is nothing objectively immoral about buying something that is expensive.

What if the buyer is also a wealthy philanthropist who gives generously to the Church every year? What if he owns a soup kitchen? What if he bought that vehicle because he believes in his heart that it is the safest one on the road, and he wants nothing more than the safety of his family?

What if he just wants a fancy car?

None of these is sinful in and of itself.

Peace,
Dante

Less for self, more for others, enough for all. All extravagance is sinful. You can justify it all you want but people die because of it.

 

[Walking_Home]

Anyone, priest or not who spends that kind of money on a material item while there are people starving to death in the world is in my opinion commiting a sin.

---

Kinda reminds me of an other who had a similar objection — I believe his name was Judas.

 

[EasterJoy]

Less for self, more for others, enough for all. All extravagance is sinful. You can justify it all you want but people die because of it.

All extravagance? Does the Vatican scandalize you, then? The great cathedrals? How about florists and jewelers? Lawns that no one ever walks on? Buildings with ceilings over 9 feet high? Large windows? Wedding gowns? Pets? Dessert? Symphonic orchestras?

People grumbled when the woman broke the alabaster jar on the feet of Jesus, saying it was a wasteful extravagance. I’m not advocating for selfishness, but look around you at nature. We serve an extravagant God, a God who provided another 120 gallons of wine for a wedding that had already gone through an significant amount.

I don’t begrudge a priest expenditure of his own money on a car he enjoys driving. I don’t even have to know him to know that, given his aptitudes, he has given up far more for others than I ever will.

 

[johnnydigit]

God usually works on one area of our weaknesses at a time, rather than overwhelm us with discouragement through failing in many. St. Teresa of Avila wrote of a priest that tried to correct her habits and failed in his attempts because he tried to lead her when she was not strong enough or ready. She finally met a holy servant of God who was able to direct her little by little.

It could be the same here, that God is not leading him yet into simplicity concerning material things. If you find that his liturgies are reverent, the homilies inspiring, and sense interiorly that God’s Spirit would have you remain there, let your judgment of this (which is not a sin, BTW) pass over and refuse to give the devil and opportunity to see the speck in your neighbor’s eye.

That ole devil will try anything and everything to magnify the so-called failings we see in others. Show him the door!

Blessings,
Carole

well said. i wish all priests had the zeal of St. Francis, but they don’t. we have thousands of priests all over the world, and they’re all at different points in their spiritual journey. they cover the entire spectrum of spirituality, and we must remember they are just as sinful as us lay people who are striving to become better, except that they have holy hands that can consecrate.

if it concerns you that much, find out for yourself the truth of his situation, or else, let go and let God.