Concerns with the charismatic renewal at FUS

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so i’m a first year grad student at franciscan university and i don’t know what to make of the whole charismatic movement. it seems like nothing but emotionalism and a “catholicized” version of pentecostalism. the school makes pledges to be faithful to the magisterium and church teaching and tradition…and then i go to one of the liturgies on campus and the acoustic guitars and the spontaneous singing that comes out of nowhere…isn’t there a difference between sacred music and religious music!!! and get this, we have yet to have a tridentine mass on campus. you’d think that since we pride ourselves on the “oath of fidelity” to the pope that we’d be “leading the way.” i get the sense that there’s some major hypocrisy at my school…
 
Are these meetings actual Masses or are they just generic get-togethers (services) to pray and sing?
 
Are these meetings actual Masses or are they just generic get-togethers (services) to pray and sing?
My daughter, a graduate of FUS, has told me that it depends on the Mass you go to whether there will be more Charismatic type singing (she indicated to me though that the Mass and the GIRM were actually followed so…)

As for the Motu Proprio and the Tridentine Mass on campus this was discussed at the end of the year last year here on CAF. Basically what the school administration has said is that the FUS chapel (I belief it is Christ the King Chapel) is in no way set up for a proper Tridentine Mass whereas St. Peter’s (I think that is the name of the Parish that FUS is under) is and has started having said Masses. The school in order to assist those who wish to go have offered a bus to and from the school to the church. Not only that but if the OP is desperate enough, he can walk to St. Peter’s, it is a bit of a hike but any healthy person (hey, when I was in College, Grad school age, I used to walk miles to get to where I wanted to go with out so much as a thought and that was in ND in the middle of very cold winters!)

Brenda V.
 
so i’m a first year grad student at franciscan university and i don’t know what to make of the whole charismatic movement. it seems like nothing but emotionalism and a “catholicized” version of pentecostalism. the school makes pledges to be faithful to the magisterium and church teaching and tradition…and then i go to one of the liturgies on campus and the acoustic guitars and the spontaneous singing that comes out of nowhere…isn’t there a difference between sacred music and religious music!!! and get this, we have yet to have a tridentine mass on campus. you’d think that since we pride ourselves on the “oath of fidelity” to the pope that we’d be “leading the way.” i get the sense that there’s some major hypocrisy at my school…
Perhaps this sort of spirituality at this school isn’t for you?

We’re all drawn towards different styles of prayer.

Also, the Pope never mandated that the TLM be said, anywhere. He allowed it to be said, and ask that Bishops should allow it, where it is requested by the faithful. This doesn’t mean they must have it, especially if they don’t have the resources available.

So, the School isn’t disobeying the Pope, as you suggest.

Jim
 
We’re all drawn towards different styles of prayer.
Yes, but the way that Mass is said is dictated by the rubrics, not by what type of prayer that we happen to be drawn to.

There is no such thing as a “Charismatic Rite”.
 
Yes, but the way that Mass is said is dictated by the rubrics, not by what type of prayer that we happen to be drawn to.

There is no such thing as a “Charismatic Rite”.
There is Charismatic style, and it does not go against the Rubrics, but instead, follows the spirit of Vatican II on the Liturgy.

Its may not be your style of Mass, but don’t tell others who prefer iit, that its wrong, based merely on your preference.

Jim
 
There is Charismatic style, and it does not go against the Rubrics, but instead, follows the spirit of Vatican II on the Liturgy.

Its may not be your style of Mass, but don’t tell others who prefer iit, that its wrong, based merely on your preference.

Jim
What exactly is the “Spirit of Vatican II” regarding the liturgy?

It’s quite simple, really. Follow the rubrics. Call the “style” whatever you want; just follow the rubrics.
 
What exactly is the “Spirit of Vatican II” regarding the liturgy?

It’s quite simple, really. Follow the rubrics. Call the “style” whatever you want; just follow the rubrics.
The Spirit of Vatican II regarding the liturgy, is for full participation of the people in it. This is through songs, the prayers and of course, the heart.

They follow the rubrics. If not, its the Bishop’s job to stop them, not participants in CAF.

Jim
 
Admittedly, I am a little biased being that I am extremely active in the Charismatic Renewal, but the fact remains that the Church has not condemned or rejected the renewal.

It has been my experience in my Archdiocese, that of San Antonio, that Charismatics are some of the more orthodox Catholics. Most charismatics are loyal to the Catholic Church. Our Archbishop Jose Gomez has blessed the Renewal locally.
One parish has 2 priests active in the Renewal and it’s involvement in the renewal has led it to be a very active and very orthodox parish.

Admittedly, there are problems in the renewal, locally, but many of them are good problems to have, problems stemming from a thirst to serve, pray, and follow the holy Law of God. Charismatics locally (and I am almost positive at FUS) for the most part accept the teaching authority and discipline of the Church, love the Blessed Virgin Mary, are very active in the various lay movements locally.

Three of the last four Pope’s have encouraged the Renewal (the exception being John Paul I, who reigned for about a month), the Bishops Conference has encouraged it, and several leaders in the Church have been part of it, including: Raneiro Cantalamessa and Mother Angelica. Admittedly this encouragement has included a word of caution, but those who I know in the Renewal have welcomed the warnings.

As a Charismatic, I do have my criticisms of my well-meaning overly zealous friends in the renewal. The number 1 criticism is the tendency to become spiritually arrogant. However, everybody knows that Charismatics do not have a monopoly on spiritual arrogance, but this is a temptation of the devil to anyone who becomes active in spiritual things.

I understand why the Renewal sometimes makes people uncomfortable - because it is different, it is new, and new things have always been a challenge to the Church, inspiring it to grow, to strengthen in faith, hope and love.

Personally, I know for a fact that my involvement in the Renewal has blessed me and given me the strength I have needed for the journey. Just recently I have gained a lot of needed spiritual strength from a good young adult prayer group that meets at the Archdiocesan Charismatic Center.

This is not to say everything in the Charismatic Renewal is a bed of roses. I understand not all Diocese’s have had positive experiences in the Renewal. But I put forward my experience in the Archdiocese of San Antonio as an example on how the renewal can be positive, and not necessarily negative.

Thanks and God bless for giving my two cents of (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peter Rowe
 
I once had somebody make a fascinating point to me. It went like this.
  1. The Holy Spirit guided the 2nd Vatican Council.
  2. The 2nd Vatican Council singled out Gregorian Chant for the highest praise, calling it the music of the Roman rite.
  3. So why don’t those who claim most loudly to be guided by the Holy Spirit use the music singled out by the Holy Spirit?
I couldn’t think of a good answer.
 
I once had somebody make a fascinating point to me. It went like this.
  1. The Holy Spirit guided the 2nd Vatican Council.
  2. The 2nd Vatican Council singled out Gregorian Chant for the highest praise, calling it the music of the Roman rite.
  3. So why don’t those who claim most loudly to be guided by the Holy Spirit use the music singled out by the Holy Spirit?
I couldn’t think of a good answer.
  1. Is absolutely true.
  2. I really don’t know, but I’ll take your word for it.
  3. Because the Holy Spirit guides in matters of faith, of doctrine. The type of singing is a matter of tradition, of culture and of personal taste.
Don’t get me wrong, I really love Gregorian chant, but I also am very fond of the “praise and worship” (please don’t post a hundred pages long post on how I just used a protestant term. That’s just historically incorrect) music. I don’t know why people try to violently separate the two as if one is from the devil and the other is infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit (not that you do that. It’s just something I noticed among many traditionalist.)

There’s room for both.

God bless.
 
  1. Is absolutely true.
  2. I really don’t know, but I’ll take your word for it.
  3. Because the Holy Spirit guides in matters of faith, of doctrine. The type of singing is a matter of tradition, of culture and of personal taste.
Don’t get me wrong, I really love Gregorian chant, but I also am very fond of the “praise and worship” (please don’t post a hundred pages long post on how I just used a protestant term. That’s just historically incorrect) music. I don’t know why people try to violently separate the two as if one is from the devil and the other is infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit (not that you do that. It’s just something I noticed among many traditionalist.)

There’s room for both.

God bless.
Just a couple of comments, hopefully offered in the same generous spirit of your reply.

a) If Vatican II produced a Constitution on Sacred Liturgy (which it did) then those matters which this constitution pronounced were guided by the HS, weren’t they? To argue that the HS didn’t lead the Church in Vatican II to give the highest praise to Gregorian chant is also to argue that the HS didn’t lead the Church in Vatican II to call for e.g. “active participation”. But I doubt anybody would say that the call for active participation in the liturgy was not from the HS. So one must either grant the the entire Constitution on Sacred Liturgy was guided by the HS, or that none of it was. There is no in-between.

b) I am glad that you appreciate Gregorian chant, and it bothers me not at all that you also appreciate other forms of sacred music (I do as well). But the question asked of me, and which I pass on, was, why is Gregorian chant almost never heard (can we even say studiously avoided?) by a movement which claims the particular inspiration of the HS? That is the mystery.
 
Just a couple of comments, hopefully offered in the same generous spirit of your reply.

a) If Vatican II produced a Constitution on Sacred Liturgy (which it did) then those matters which this constitution pronounced were guided by the HS, weren’t they? To argue that the HS didn’t lead the Church in Vatican II to give the highest praise to Gregorian chant is also to argue that the HS didn’t lead the Church in Vatican II to call for e.g. “active participation”. But I doubt anybody would say that the call for active participation in the liturgy was not from the HS. So one must either grant the the entire Constitution on Sacred Liturgy was guided by the HS, or that none of it was. There is no in-between.

b) I am glad that you appreciate Gregorian chant, and it bothers me not at all that you also appreciate other forms of sacred music (I do as well). But the question asked of me, and which I pass on, was, why is Gregorian chant almost never heard (can we even say studiously avoided?) by a movement which claims the particular inspiration of the HS? That is the mystery.
I agree absolutely with you, on both points. I really don’t think gregorian chant is given enough room in liturgy, and am very glad the Holy Father decided to do something about it. It has, as you have pointed out, a place of the highest esteem in the tradition of the Church. And I didn’t mean to imply otherwise, nor did I mean to imply that the constitution of Vatican II was unguided by the Holy Spirit - what I meant to emphasize is that, given it’s position, we also must consider other forms of music which, although the don’t have the same rich history of usage in the liturgy, can be of great use (be it liturgical or pastoral) to the people.

I would also agree with you on the second point. I actually think that Gregorian chant can be used… very effectively in the charismatic movement, especially during adoration and meditations, as well as during “charismatic” masses.
But that’s a matter of circumstances, really. How many Gregorian chant choirs do you know? Sure, we got Benedictines, but gathering ten+ priests who are trained in singing G. c. is no small feat. The “youth bands” who often play at charismatic Masses are simply by far more available and it is much more practical to have them sing. It may also be that sometimes such form of fast paced singing can be an easier way or a means for a person to “open themselves up” to the Holy Spirit. The text of such songs is easily understood, and it is imminent, almost forcefully present and it really can lead to ones opening to the praise and sheer joy of worshiping the Lord, and into a state of simple openness for Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It does have it’s pastoral uses, which - in these particular cases, I believe - are more convenient than a Gregorian chant choir.

I hail from a relatively small parish - and at high Mass we have an adult choir sing - they are actually quite good, but they’re not trained to sing Gregorian chant. We simply don’t have the manpower at the parish-level to introduce a widespread use of G. c., since it requires not an unnoticeable amount of real talent (not to say that other forms of singing don’t, but just to point out how specific the G. c. is). So, we manage with what we’ve got.
I don’t think it’s a lot different at any small to medium parish, or even large ones, who don’t have a tradition of singing Gregorian Chant.

God Bless.
 
Advocates of gregorian chant are usually traditionalists who do not believe “praise and worship” music is ever a proper choice. That is a heartbreaker, for sure.

There are times we all have solemn quiet adoration that brings us to lie prostrate (in spirit) before the Lord, and GC is most fitting when we are so moved. However, there are times when we are at the wedding feast of the Lamb (Easter et al), and joyful outpourings are not only called for, but it would hinder the heart if one were forced to subdue its celebratory worship.

I guess one might conclude that if you are at the Superbowl, you might be considered a bit odd if you fail to get a bit jovial. 😛

There is a time and place for both; not “either … or.”
 
OK, OP, the best advice I’ve seen is that of BrendaV and renewaladvocate.

You have a good explanation for Charismtatic Renewal.

Now, as you are a grad student, how long are you going to be there? The odds are good you are over 20. So, this is a no-brainer.

If none of the Masses on campus are not compatible to your worship style, and there is a bus to a parish where the Masses are compatible, and it is within walking distance- get going!

FUS is a lot more loyal to the magesterium than a lot of other schools. My husband works at one where they turned the chapel into what we refer to as “the fancy eatin’ room”. Daily Mass on campus does not follow GIRM and has been regulated to a room in an older building that barely holds 30 people. The only time Mass seems to follow GIRM is when the parents come on campus for graduation.
 
But that’s a matter of circumstances, really. How many Gregorian chant choirs do you know? Sure, we got Benedictines, but gathering ten+ priests who are trained in singing G. c. is no small feat. The “youth bands” who often play at charismatic Masses are simply by far more available and it is much more practical to have them sing. It may also be that sometimes such form of fast paced singing can be an easier way or a means for a person to “open themselves up” to the Holy Spirit. The text of such songs is easily understood, and it is imminent, almost forcefully present and it really can lead to ones opening to the praise and sheer joy of worshiping the Lord, and into a state of simple openness for Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It does have it’s pastoral uses, which - in these particular cases, I believe - are more convenient than a Gregorian chant choir.
But I wouldn’t expect the Charismatic Renewal to be daunted by the fact that they would actually have to learn something that the Holy Spirit said is to have pride of place in the Roman rite.

Even more than that, Pope Paul VI had produced way back in 1974, and in direct response to Vatican II, a simple collection of chant intended for congregations. It’s called “Jubilate Deo,” and it is trivially simple to sing. It can be found in both chant notation and modern notation. So if Vatican II was led by the HS, and the Charismatic Renewal is led by the HS, why isn’t the Charismatic Renewal making much greater use of Jubilate Deo? This isn’t a question of musical tastes, this is a question about following the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
 
If I remember the FUS Chapel schedule correctly, it is the late morning and evening Masses that are more Charismatic (well, and the household Mass and the masses on Parent/Orientation weekend).

I would suggest going to the early morning masses (both daily and Sunday) for more non-Charismatic worship.
 
If I remember the FUS Chapel schedule correctly, it is the late morning and evening Masses that are more Charismatic (well, and the household Mass and the masses on Parent/Orientation weekend).
Patience,

I have to ask, what is a “household Mass”. When I was a youngster and still a Protestant, we attended an Episcopal Church that was charismatic. It was very early in the Charasmatic movemement, which wasn’t nearly as foolish as it is today. Mostly, we just had “good tingling feelings” that we were told was the Holy Ghost. No “speaking in tongues”, oinking like pigs, being “slain in the spirit” or any of the other nonsense that is said to be evidence of the Holy Ghost today, just good feelings.

One thing they had back then was called “households”. I was young at the time, but from what I remember (and what I have been told sicne then) it was a house that consisted of several families in one “household”. One person was in charge and the others were to be subject to him. It turns out that there were all kinds of abuses in these households, such as the spouses having an affair with the other spouses in the household.

When read “household” in your post, in reference to the charismatic movement, it made me curious what the word referred to. Does it have anything to do with what I wrote above? If not, do you know if “households” such as I described above, still exist?

Thanks
 
But I wouldn’t expect the Charismatic Renewal to be daunted by the fact that they would actually have to learn something that the Holy Spirit said is to have pride of place in the Roman rite.

Even more than that, Pope Paul VI had produced way back in 1974, and in direct response to Vatican II, a simple collection of chant intended for congregations. It’s called “Jubilate Deo,” and it is trivially simple to sing. It can be found in both chant notation and modern notation. So if Vatican II was led by the HS, and the Charismatic Renewal is led by the HS, why isn’t the Charismatic Renewal making much greater use of Jubilate Deo? This isn’t a question of musical tastes, this is a question about following the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I guess they might, but I really can’t and wouldn’t make any kind of generalization. As I briefly addressed the topic in my previous post, it may simply be that the “charismatic music” is of greater spiritual use in such circumstances. I would have no problem with changing anything should it become mandatory, or if it was made an authoritative and binding statement. Based on all of my experiences with the CR, I can honestly say that the people I met were very orthodox and faithful to the teachings of the CC. The only people who opposed the CR are hardcore (and I don’t use the term lightly) traditionalists, who consider e.g. the receiving of communion on hand a devil’s inspired work - I actually had this grandma approach me and said: “Young man, the devil tricked the bishops who made it possible to receive communion on hand! Yes! I’ll bring you this book if you don’t believe me! I’ll show it to you!” I guess she had no clue of the practices of the early Church (even though I personally favor receiving on tongue). The “more Catholic that the pope type”, if you know what I mean.

And I really didn’t exaggerate here.

But anyway, I would still like to point out that, the guidance of the Holy Spirit at V2 taken into account, we can’t restrict the inspiration to a single music type. Just because it might differ from the “classical” (and I do use this term lightly, because such a title is correlative to the time frame and culture) doesn’t mean it is unacceptable or uninspired. Gregorian chant was confirmed to be grand and inspired. That’s fabulous. But that doesn’t restrict the music to a GC exclusive.
It’s a matter of liturgical and pastoral issues, is how my little mind sees it.

But in reality, can one really doubt the orthodoxy of the charismatic renewal based on musical preferences? The use of GC is, as far as I understand it, is not mandatory. So, yeah, I agree that it should be promulgated more - in all of the Church - but I don’t think that other forms of music should be discredited a priori. If there is spiritual benefit from such praise songs, I can’t postulate any reasonable argument for forbidding its use in liturgy.

Ok.

In Christ.
 
It was very early in the Charasmatic movemement, which wasn’t nearly as foolish as it is today. Mostly, we just had “good tingling feelings” that we were told was the Holy Ghost. No “speaking in tongues”, oinking like pigs, being “slain in the spirit” or any of the other nonsense that is said to be evidence of the Holy Ghost today, just good feelings.
Wow.

Do you really think that speaking in tongues is nonsense?
Oinking like pigs?

Just to express my awe at such a strongly negative stance, I say again - Wow.

Please don’t get me wrong, I really want to maintain all of this in a spirit of charity.
 
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