Condemnation of fellow Christians

[Lisa4Catholics]

Here, we go with the Romanist again.Uni, it is very interesting how you presume to pick and choose what you take literally, what is analagy, and what is symbolic.What authority do you base your presumption on?Have you had a private revelation?If so what did you say to yourself? You continue to be rude and self rightious to us, where is your Christian charity? Because, all that is coming through is loathing of others who love Jesus, their Savior.God Bless

 

[buffalo]

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[jphilapy]

vern humphrey:

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

YOU are not condemned. However, if you had been brought up in the Catholic Church, and separated yourself from it, by denying the basic teachings of the Church, then you would be a heretic.

I don’t understand this. How is one who is brought up “into these communities” to be considered a christian but the one who is brought up in the catholic church and leaves it considered a heretic? how are they different? If the one leaving the catholic church to join one of these communities does so for the same reason as someone who is brought up in these communities refuses to accept the catholic church then shouldn’t they both be treated as christians or as heretics?

And also doesn’t the RC state that there is no salvation outside the Church? If that is true then it necessarily follows that it does not matter if you are born into this outside community or not, the bottom line is, you must eventually join the RC or go to hell.

Thanks for your time.
Jeff

 

[CatholicCrusade]

You are condemned to Hell as you said (so long, of course, as you do not convert and repent in the Sacrament of Confession) because that is what Christ taught: He who is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

You are not a Christian if you are not a Catholic, for as the Bible also tells us, the Church is the [Mystical] Body of Christ. And the Mystical Body of Christ is “one and the same thing as the Roman Catholic Church” (Pope Pius XII).

You reject the authority of the Pope, but you would do well to read the early Church history. Read about Pope St. Clement I and his letter to the Corinithians. They submitted to the authority of the Pope even while St. John the Evangelist was still living, and St. John had no objection of St. Clement “taking charge” as it were of the Church, for Christ is clear: And I say to thee that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.

And the rule of Sts. Cyprian and Augustine is clear: He will not have God for his Father who will not have the Church for his Mother.

 

[jphilapy]

CatholicCrusade:

You are condemned to Hell as you said (so long, of course, as you do not convert and repent in the Sacrament of Confession) because that is what Christ taught: He who is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

Well CC that isn’t what the above statement says. It says
“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities”

“and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers”

“All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ”

“they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church”

Doesnt say anything about them excepting the pope or catholic traditions. It is talking about folks that are born into a seperated community and still part of one. These folks are considered christians and received by the RC because of their faith and Baptism. Not because they join the RC. Maybe you are interpreting receive to mean that you allow them to come into the church, but then that doesn’t makes sens as you still allow classified heretics to come is as long as they except pope and traditions.

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

CatholicCrusade:

You are not a Christian if you are not a Catholic,

You reject the authority of the Pope,

Well that sounds considerbly different than the statement I quoted in my previous post. That statement makes it sound like if you are born into one of these communites, are still part of the community then the RC accepts you as a christian and a brother as long as you have faith and Baptism. It sounds like it is saying that is enough and there is no need for them to convert to RC. If there is a need for them to, then why make the statement about other communities?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[vern_humphrey]

jphilapy:

I don’t understand this.

Then let us help you.

jphilapy:

IHow is one who is brought up “into these communities” to be considered a christian but the one who is brought up in the catholic church and leaves it considered a heretic?

Heresy is a religious doctrine that is wrong.

But to BE a heretic requires a deliberate rejection of what you have been taught is true. A person who has been brought up as, say a Baptist, does not reject Catholicism – he embraces that which he has been taught. Even though the Catholic Church regards WHAT he has been taught as erroneous (to the point of heresy), no blame attaches to that person.

Being baptized, the person is, of course a Christian – regardless of the teachings of his particular church. And so long as he strives to live a Christian life, according to his lights, we consider him a brother Christian.

jphilapy:

If the one leaving the catholic church to join one of these communities does so for the same reason as someone who is brought up in these communities refuses to accept the catholic church then shouldn’t they both be treated as christians or as heretics?

A person leaving the Catholic Church rejects what he has been taught, and indeed commits heresy. A person born in another religion who holds fast to what he has been taught commits no sin.

jphilapy:

And also doesn’t the RC state that there is no salvation outside the Church? If that is true then it necessarily follows that it does not matter if you are born into this outside community or not, the bottom line is, you must eventually join the RC or go to hell.

No. The Catholic Church teaches that if you are a baptized Christian, you are a part of the larger Church – even if you are not fully in communion with the Catholic Church. If you strive to live a Christian life, you may be saved.

Even a non-Christian who strives to learn the truth and who lives a Christ-like life may be saved.

 

[jphilapy]

Well vern you and CC have given me different answers. Are you from different Catholic church lines?

Jeff

 

[JGC]

jphilapy:

I don’t understand this. How is one who is brought up “into these communities” to be considered a christian but the one who is brought up in the catholic church and leaves it considered a heretic? how are they different? If the one leaving the catholic church to join one of these communities does so for the same reason as someone who is brought up in these communities refuses to accept the catholic church then shouldn’t they both be treated as christians or as heretics?

And also doesn’t the RC state that there is no salvation outside the Church? If that is true then it necessarily follows that it does not matter if you are born into this outside community or not, the bottom line is, you must eventually join the RC or go to hell.

Thanks for your time.
Jeff

Please see post 5.

 

[jphilapy]

JGC:

Please see post 5.

Thanks JGC I get it now.

 

[vern_humphrey]

jphilapy:

Well vern you and CC have given me different answers. Are you from different Catholic church lines?

Jeff

Actually, we haven’t – he has addressed your personal case (you have come to a Catholic forum of your own free will). I have addressed the general case – of a person growing up in a different Christian tradition.

 

[jphilapy]

vern humphrey:

Actually, we haven’t – he has addressed your personal case (you have come to a Catholic forum of your own free will). I have addressed the general case – of a person growing up in a different Christian tradition.

And what is the difference? I have grown up in a different tradition. Don’t folks in different traditions have the ability to learn about the catholic church? Aren’t we all responsible to find out what is the correct way to be saved and to live?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[mercygate]

1. UniChristian, How, why and when did you leave the Church? Don’t answer if it would violate the rules of the forums on divulging personal information
2. You realize, don’t you, that when Jesus told the disciples that they must “eat his flesh” and “drink his blood,” that was the point where Judas fell away? (Jn 6)

 

[vern_humphrey]

jphilapy:

And what is the difference? I have grown up in a different tradition. Don’t folks in different traditions have the ability to learn about the catholic church? Aren’t we all responsible to find out what is the correct way to be saved and to live?

Examine your heart.

Why are you here? Has God brought you here, that you may learn?

And if He has given you that opportunity, does He not have a reason?

 

[jphilapy]

vern humphrey:

Examine your heart.

Why are you here? Has God brought you here, that you may learn?

And if He has given you that opportunity, does He not have a reason?

I am not asking what should I do. I am trying to understand the Catholic’s position.

 

[vern_humphrey]

jphilapy:

I am not asking what should I do. I am trying to understand the Catholic’s position.

The Catholic Church’s position is quite simple – persons born in a different (non-Catholic) tradition are not chargeable with heresy and are considered brother Christians. If they are faithful to their beliefs, they may be saved.

What can be simpler and more straightforward than that?

 

[jphilapy]

vern humphrey:

The Catholic Church’s position is quite simple – persons born in a different (non-Catholic) tradition are not chargeable with heresy and are considered brother Christians. If they are faithful to their beliefs, they may be saved.

What can be simpler and more straightforward than that?

Ok then why consider them brothers? If the catholic doctrine is necessary then why not just require them to accept it in completion? Why let them off the hook for that reason? Is it because they are incapable of excepting the Catholic position due to the fact that they are born into another tradition?

 

[vern_humphrey]

jphilapy:

Ok then why consider them brothers?

Because they are. They are God’s children, and are baptized into Christianity.

Why not turn your question around and ask, “Why should we reject them?”

jphilapy:

If the catholic doctrine is necessary then why not just require them to accept it in completion? Why let them off the hook for that reason?

Our charge is to lead people to salvation, not turn them away. None of us is perfect, and if there are people with an imperfect concept of Christ’s teachings, that does not bar them from salvation.

jphilapy:

Is it because they are incapable of excepting the Catholic position due to the fact that they are born into another tradition?

That’s certainly a possibility.

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Here is the general and specifics of this.

If a person is baptized, he is Catholic, IF he has a valid Baptism, which is possible (but unlikely) outside the Roman Catholic Church.

HOWEVER, if he never elicits an Act of Faith in the Catholic Church (or if he elicits an act of faith contrary to any teaching of the Church) upon having reached the age of use, then he removes himself from the Catholic Church, as he has committed an heretical act, whether or not he does so with culpable or inculpable (“invincible”) ignorance. Either way, he removes himself from the Church.

Can such a person be saved who labours in inculpable ignorance of the Truth, the Catholic Church? No, he cannot, according to Fr. Muller, theologian for the Holy See: (see next post)

 

[CatholicCrusade]

Continued…

1. Will those heretics be saved, who are not guilty of the sin of heresy [inculpably ignorant], and are faithful in living up to the dictates of their conscience?

Inculpable ignorance of the true religion excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy. But such ignorance has never been the means of salvation. From the fact that a person who lives up to the dictates of his conscience, and who cannot sin against the true religion on account of being ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclusion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, thus making ignorance a means of salvation or justification.

If we sincerely wish not to make great mistakes in explaining the great revealed truth, “Out of the Church there is no salvation,” we must remember:

a) That there are four great truths of salvation, which everyone must know and believe in order to be saved; [the four mentioned by St. Thomas Aquinas is to what he is most likely referring]

b) That no one can go to Heaven unless he is in the state of sanctifying grace;

**c) **That, in order to receive sanctifying grace, the soul must be prepared for it by divine Faith, Hope, Charity, true sorrow for sin with the firm purpose of doing all that God requires the soul to believe and to do, in order to be saved;

d) That this preparation of the soul cannot be brought by inculpable ignorance. And if such ignorance cannot even dispose the soul for receiving the grace of justification, it can much less give this grace to the soul. Inculpable ignorance has never been a means of grace or salvation, not even for the inculpably ignorant people that live up to their conscience. But of this class of ignorant persons we say, with Saint Thomas Aquinas, that God in His mercy will lead these souls to the knowledge of the necessary truths of salvation, even send them an angel, if necessary, to instruct them, rather than let them perish without their fault. If they accept this grace, they will be saved as Catholics.

Thus we see no one is saved outside the Church, even if in inculpable ignorance.

See the entire article here: oltyn.com/Muller-Slv.htm, keeping in mind this was published BY THE HOLY SEE. I would suggest specifically the section on heretics and invincible ignorance: 26-41, and for the information on how it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved if unbaptized (even if inculpably ignorant): 13-25.