Condoms vs. Monthly Abstinence: Either way the intent is to have sex without children (for the time being) ???

[True_Irish]

Condoms are condemned because the fact that they are worn means that they change sex and make it NOT a marital act but, rather, something like mutual masturbation.

The marital act of sex is designed by God to make one body of two people. Condoms destroy that.

This is the point that this thread and most like it miss. SEX is a Maritial act in which the two spouses become one. God ment for us to have sex to become closer together build a stronger union. When contraceptive devices are used Sex can then be easily used for the sheer physical pleasure of it. Over time this can destroy the ability to create those bonds.
When we discuss or debate the reasons not to plan our lives we fall into a quagmire. NFP is a form a contraception. The argument that when you have sex you must be open for procreation would mean that you can only have sex when your body is open for procration which is those few days in a month in which the women is capable of concieving. All other times you are attempting to plead ignorance or you are not open to to concieve.

I for one have a very hard time accepting this requirement of the church because it seams to go against nature.

 

[mercygate]

Thank you. I guess part of the problem is I was raised non-christian. I became a christian in a protestant church where the church talked OPENLY about the use of birth control between married couples (including the pastoral staff). I don’t rule out that my brain has been corupted (if indeed ABC IS wrong) I am just hoping that if it is, it will get worked out with time. I really don’t think I’m stupid. I have come into line with the church on EVERYTHING since my conversion. (I was pentecostal, so I had a LONG way to go) but this is the one sticky point.

Delph, you AIN’T stupid! Why not use some of your Pentecostal heritage and ask for one o’ them Holy Spirit things that opens your eyes and gives you peace? (I do that all the time, and it SCARES me how he does it!)

I think you are a champ.

 

[fix]

T
NFP is a form a contraception.

I am sorry but there is no way NFP is a contraceptive action. The means, NFP, are not evil. The intention in using it may be evil but the practice of NFP is not immoral.

The opposite would be having a good intention, but using contraception, which would make the marital act illicit.

Both cases may be sinful but for different reasons.

The argument that when you have sex you must be open for procreation would mean that you can only have sex when your body is open for procration which is those few days in a month in which the women is capable of concieving. All other times you are attempting to plead ignorance or you are not open to to concieve.

Procreation does not equal likely to conceive. Open to procreation includes never altering the act itself. With NFP the act is not altered in anyway.

 

[hasikelee]

I think the title explains itself, but just to give the thread a mission statement:

Why then are condoms condemned?

NFP, Condoms, and Contraception are as hard for me to understand as they are to defend. (in other words: I mean to provoke discussion and not the usual plethora of blatantly “uncharitable responses” I sometimes get)

Thanks in advance…

My favourite reply to this is Christopher West’s "I don’t see the difference between using condoms now and waaaaiting for NFP is like saying I don’t see the difference between killing grandma now and waaaaiiiting until she dies."

Well, the next time I’m hungry I’ll just steal my food instead of buy it. I mean, the ends are the same, right?

 

[Delphinus85]

Delph, you AIN’T stupid! Why not use some of your Pentecostal heritage and ask for one o’ them Holy Spirit things that opens your eyes and gives you peace? (I do that all the time, and it SCARES me how he does it!)

I think you are a champ.

hehehe thanks!! Believe it or not I have been. I get on my piano and play some of the old songs we sang in our church (that aren’t doctrinally flawed) in a prayer, and I’ve been trying for the Holy Spirit to change my heart, but I’m getting a firm “no” which is new. I usually get “wait” LOL I just keep getting the feeling that God is protecting me from something maybe. Maybe it’s because of my illness shrugs or maybe he doesn’t want me to worry about it:shrug:

 

[mercygate]

hehehe thanks!! Believe it or not I have been. I get on my piano and play some of the old songs we sang in our church (that aren’t doctrinally flawed) in a prayer, and I’ve been trying for the Holy Spirit to change my heart, but I’m getting a firm “no” which is new.** I usually get “wait”** LOL I just keep getting the feeling that God is protecting me from something maybe. Maybe it’s because of my illness shrugs or maybe he doesn’t want me to worry about it

You may be onto something there. Maybe your illness is what needs to be dealt with. (Is the pill the best way though? It can be dicey. My daughter, now 25 and single, just decided to try to live without it. So far, no hospitalizations!)

 

[True_Irish]

I think that the thing that you are missing here, especially in this arguement that “if you are avoiding, why not use a condom ‘just to be sure’ that you do not conceive” is completely missing the point of what the marital embrace is each and everytime.

The marital embrace is the giving of ourselves to our spouse totally, fully, faithfully, and fruitfully. We are giving them everything that we have (just as Christ does for the Church, his bride) to our spouse. We hold nothing back.

Having said that, we must keep in mind that every act (every act) of sexual intercourse with our spouse must be:

#1 Unitive - uniting the spouses in the marital embrace giving of themselves to one another as described above.

#2 Procreative - always open to new life

From the Catechism:

Now getting back to what you are saying about avoiding a pregnancy, that is possible during the infertile times of the month. Those that practice NFP know when they are fertile and infertile. It is not a sin to have sex during an infertile time, you can do that, you are still open to the possibility of human life even if you are avoiding.

Again from the Catechism

By using a condom you have taken out one of the essential purposes of the marital embrace, the procreative aspect. God is in control of our lives. Plain and simple. By using artificial contraception, you are telling God that He can be incharge of everything else in your life, but your sexual life, you will be in charge of. You will be the god of your sexual life. How wrong is that? God knows all about sex. God created sex!! He is the one that is in charge.

This is a contridiction: First you state ( as well as the Church does) that "The marital embrace is the giving of ourselves to our spouse totally, fully, faithfully, and fruitfully. " Then you state that it is OK to take Fruitfully out as long as it is with NFP. NFP is a better form of contraception. It is more reliable then any other yet it has been accepted? Not sure why? I prefer using NFP myself but the teachings are contradictory.

The whole idea that sex (Naturaly) is only there for procreation seperates the whole union of Marriage. It is a joining of a man and his wife. That joining is not limited to procration nor should it be.

 

[Delphinus85]

You may be onto something there. Maybe your illness is what needs to be dealt with. (Is the pill the best way though? It can be dicey. My daughter, now 25 and single, just decided to try to live without it. So far, no hospitalizations!)

It is. My isue is a hormonal problem because I was anorexic and lost my period for a year. Every doc I have been to says my body will catch up to itself ina few years. Most likely by the time I am 25. There really isn’t anything that they can do to fix it, my body just has to catch up and snap back from me hurting myself like that. I had to do something to treat the probem because I couldn’t hold down a job, and…well there were other really bad issues. I do need to deal with the illness though. Even WITH the pill I still have some problems. But it’s something I have to learn to deal with. Basically my issue was so bad that even with the pill I have what normal women concider a “heavy period”

 

[whatevergirl]

Perhaps you struggle because you do not properly distinguish between the end and the means.

The **end **(spacing births) is not immoral and the Church has never taught that it is.

There are two **means **to achieve this:

self-mastery through abstaining
self-indulgence through contracepting

One is a moral *means *and one is not. To use the sexual faculties as designed by God, each act must be objectively unitive and procreative even if subjectively infertile at that moment.

One may not alter the sex act in any way-- which is what contraception does. One may choose to refrain from the sex act to keep its integrity intact.

that’s a great explanation…

 

[mercygate]

It is. My isue is a hormonal problem because I was anorexic and lost my period for a year. Every doc I have been to says my body will catch up to itself ina few years. Most likely by the time I am 25. There really isn’t anything that they can do to fix it, my body just has to catch up and snap back from me hurting myself like that. I had to do something to treat the probem because I couldn’t hold down a job, and…well there were other really bad issues. I do need to deal with the illness though. Even WITH the pill I still have some problems. But it’s something I have to learn to deal with. Basically my issue was so bad that even with the pill I have what normal women concider a “heavy period”

:bigyikes: Wow! You’re really dealing (and it sounds like you are handling this very well, and moving along on the up-curve) with some big stuff. I hand it to you, girl! :tiphat: At 25, you have plenty of time to calm the sea and get your boat to shore. I pray that the rest of the voyage will be smoother for you. Your husband must be a real honey also! God bless you both!

 

[mercygate]

This is a contridiction: First you state ( as well as the Church does) that "The marital embrace is the giving of ourselves to our spouse totally, fully, faithfully, and fruitfully. " Then you state that it is OK to take Fruitfully out as long as it is with NFP. NFP is a better form of contraception. It is more reliable then any other yet it has been accepted? Not sure why? I prefer using NFP myself but the teachings are contradictory.

The whole idea that sex (Naturaly) is only there for procreation seperates the whole union of Marriage. It is a joining of a man and his wife. That joining is not limited to procration nor should it be.

You are right. The marriage act must include both the procreative openness (even when procreation is unlikely or impossible) AND the unitive. To take either piece out of the act distorts it.

Think about it: The Church does NOT say that intercourse is permissible ONLY when a fertile woman is able to conceive. There’s a lot of leeway here.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

You are right. The marriage act must include both the procreative openness (even when procreation is unlikely or impossible) AND the unitive. To take either piece out of the act distorts it.

It is sometimes easier to look at it in the same way as other physical drives/pleasures that we experience.

The primary purpose of eating is naturally for nourishment. There are some who are only after the pleasure of eating, and seek to separate the pleasure from the natural purpose. Bulimics do that. Why does society chastise them, considering bulimia to be a disease (for now anyway)? Because it has not yet reached that level of corruption. When bulimia is excepted as ‘OK’, as another act that someone should have the freedom to do, becuase they aren’t hurting another person, then mark another step towards the de-civilization of society, in exactly the same way the Roman’s preceeded us.

Sincerely,

Dan Grelinger

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

This is a contridiction: First you state ( as well as the Church does) that "The marital embrace is the giving of ourselves to our spouse totally, fully, faithfully, and fruitfully. " Then you state that it is OK to take Fruitfully out as long as it is with NFP. NFP is a better form of contraception. It is more reliable then any other yet it has been accepted? Not sure why? I prefer using NFP myself but the teachings are contradictory.

The whole idea that sex (Naturaly) is only there for procreation seperates the whole union of Marriage. It is a joining of a man and his wife. That joining is not limited to procration nor should it be.

I am not sure that I see where in my post I took out the fruitful part of the marital embrace? You may have read something into the post that is not there? I am not sure.

NFP is not contraception. That is one thing that so many people fail to understand. Using NFP is not contracepting. Having sex and using NFP is not going against what the Church teaches. The Church teaches against contraception, aka artificial birth control, I do not see the Church ever stating that NFP is ever a contraceptive act.

Again, I did not say that sex is only for procreation, I said that ever act must be procreative open to new life. There are times of the month that it is not possible, yet you are still open to life.

 

[fellowChristian]

When married couples contracept, they are declaring “not your will God, but my will be done.”

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11
"Be fruitful and increase in number; We are told 3 times!

**Genesis 28:3 **
3 May God Almighty **bless you **and make you fruitful and increase your numbers until you become a community of peoples.

Children are a blessing!

**Genesis 38:8-10 **
8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.

Wasting his seed was wicked!

**Exodus 23:25-26 **
25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness

**1 Corinthians 7:5 **

5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

This is o.k.

**1 Timothy 2:15 **
15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don’t you want salvation?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

When married couples contracept, they are declaring “not your will God, but my will be done.”

That is not Catholic Church teaching

…

**Genesis 38:8-10 **
8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.

Wasting his seed was wicked!

Can you cite how you know it was the seed and not the disobeying which God choose to punish?

**Exodus 23:25-26 **
25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness

And yet miscarriages and barrenness both occur in Catholics!!!

**1 Corinthians 7:5 **

5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

This is o.k.

**1 Timothy 2:15 **
15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don’t you want salvation?

Are you the one who grants such?

Let me guess you are a huge proponent on NFP. Why o’ why cann’t the Church’s actual teaching not be used?

 

[FLCathMom]

Can you cite how you know it was the seed and not the disobeying which God choose to punish?

The punishment for not giving your brother’s wife a child was not death. Onan could have chosen to disobey by refusing to go in to his sister-in-law, instead, he chose to use her like a whore. That is what is wrong with contraception. It changes the marital act into an act of masturbation.

 

[FLCathMom]

The punishment for refusing to father children for your brother’s wife is found in Deuteronomy 25:9- “his sister-in-law, in the presence of the elders shall go up to him and strip his sandal from his foot and spit in his face…” (public humiliation.) Onan was put to death.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Thank you for the reply, however I fail to see the “Catholic teaching” could you add a direct citation?

The punishment for not giving your brother’s wife a child was not death. Onan could have chosen to disobey by refusing to go in to his sister-in-law, instead, he chose to use her like a whore. That is what is wrong with contraception. It changes the marital act into an act of masturbation.

The punishment for refusing to father children for your brother’s wife is found in Deuteronomy 25:9- “his sister-in-law, in the presence of the elders shall go up to him and strip his sandal from his foot and spit in his face…” (public humiliation.) Onan was put to death.

[see note 3] Then Judah said to Onan, “Unite with your brother’s widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother’s line.” Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother’s widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

[Note] 3 [8] Preserve your brother’s line: literally “raise up seed for your brother.” The ancient Israelites regarded as very important their law of levirate, or “brother-in-law” marriage; see notes on Deut 25:5; Ruth 2:20. In the present story, it is primarily Onan’s violation of this law, rather than the means he used to circumvent it, that brought on him God’s displeasure (Genesis 38:9-10).

usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis38.htm

Maybe you need to take it up with the Church? Another option is to look at the transfer of property under the 2 condition available?

 

[FLCathMom]

I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for but, from the Church:

“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life” (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

With periodic abstinence, we do not render any specific marital act unfruitful. God renders certain marital acts unfruitful by the nature of His design of the woman’s reproductive cycle, but it is not for us to render specific acts unfruitful.

 

[True_Irish]

You are right. The marriage act must include both the procreative openness (even when procreation is unlikely or impossible) AND the unitive. To take either piece out of the act distorts it.

Think about it: The Church does NOT say that intercourse is permissible ONLY when a fertile woman is able to conceive. There’s a lot of leeway here.

The procreative portion is taken out anytime the women is not fetile. If you are not fetile you can not procreate. Being open to procreation means you will have the child if you are blessed with one. If God wanted us to have children he could easily make it so. The condom would break the women could miscalculate the pill would fail.
The union of a man and his wife goes far beyond procreation, and if the fail to unite there will be problems because the will fail to be one. The lessons of Onian are misunderstood. He was struck down because he disobeyed God.