Condoms vs. Monthly Abstinence: Either way the intent is to have sex without children (for the time being) ???

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True_Irish said:
If God wanted us to have children he could easily make it so. The condom would break the women could miscalculate the pill would fail.
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God does not force us to do His will. This is like saying you can try to commit suicide, but if God doesn’t want you to die, you won’t. Of course God doesn’t want anyone to commit suicide, but it happens.
 
Texas Roofer—

Catechism of the Catholic Church

ARTICLE 6
THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

# 2367

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm

ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

V. The Goods and Requirements of Conjugal Love

**# 1643 **

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3art7.htm

CHAPTER TWO
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

# 2205

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.htm#2205

Contraception and Sterilization

From the Early Church Fathers

Clement of Alexandria

“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted” (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).

from Catholic Answers
catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp
 
CCC 2370. Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil.

livingcatholicism.com/archives/2006/08/contraception_a.html
 
“I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility…Assuredly if both husband and wife are like this, they are not married, and if they were like this from the beginning they come together not joined in matrimony but in seduction. If both are not like this, I dare to say that either the wife is in a fashion the harlot of her husband or he is an adulterer with his own wife.” **Augustine, Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 (A.D. 419). **
 
I’m sorry if Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church don’t fall in line with what you believe,but as a Catholic you should know contraception of any kind is intrinsically evil.

Oh and last time I checked St Augustine and Clement of Alexandria were still part of the church.

From the Early Church Fathers

Clement of Alexandria

“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged,** nor is it to be wasted”** (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).

Maybe you didn’t read the articles I posted?

Compendium
OF THE
CATECHISM
OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH
  1. What are the goods of conjugal love to which sexuality is ordered?
2360-2361
2397-2398

The goods of conjugal love, which for those who are baptized is sanctified by the sacrament of Matrimony, are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an openness to the procreation of life.
  1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?
2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.
  1. When is it moral to regulate births?
2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
  1. What are immoral means of birth control?
2370-2372

Every action - for example, **direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which **(either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#“You%20Shall%20Love%20Your%20Neighbour%20as%20Yourself”

I am quoting from the Catholic Church and I am getting my info from the Catholic Church. Show me where the Catholic Church allows contraception.

The cafeteria is closed.
 
True_Irish said:
The procreative portion is taken out anytime the women is not fetile. If you are not fetile you can not procreate. Being open to procreation means you will have the child if you are blessed with one. If God wanted us to have children he could easily make it so. The condom would break the women could miscalculate the pill would fail.
The union of a man and his wife goes far beyond procreation, and if the fail to unite there will be problems because the will fail to be one. The lessons of Onian are misunderstood. He was struck down because he disobeyed God.
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So you are saying that having sexual intercourse during an infertile time is sinful?
 
fellowChristian said:
I’m sorry if Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church don’t fall in line with what you believe,but as a Catholic you should know contraception of any kind is intrinsically evil.

Oh and last time I checked St Augustine and Clement of Alexandria were still part of the church.

From the Early Church Fathers

Clement of Alexandria

“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged,** nor is it to be wasted”** (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).

Maybe you didn’t read the articles I posted?

Compendium
OF THE
CATECHISM
OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH
  1. What are the goods of conjugal love to which sexuality is ordered?
2360-2361
2397-2398

The goods of conjugal love, which for those who are baptized is sanctified by the sacrament of Matrimony, are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an openness to the procreation of life.
  1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?
2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.
  1. When is it moral to regulate births?
2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
  1. What are immoral means of birth control?
2370-2372

Every action - for example, **direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which **(either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#“You%20Shall%20Love%20Your%20Neighbour%20as%20Yourself”

I am quoting from the Catholic Church and I am getting my info from the Catholic Church. Show me where the Catholic Church allows contraception.

The cafeteria is closed.
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Spin , spin, spin

The catechism is clear on false witness, no exception for those wear an NFP banner
 
Why on earth would you want to deprive some nice, innocent little kid of the gift of life???Would you like it if your parents used contraception instead of begettng you?No.How could that ever be moral?
 
fellowChristian said:
I don’t get your meaning? see paragraph below

But I have a question- Do you know what NFP means and how it works?
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Yes, I even know where babies come from.

It is simply From post Post #54 “*When married couples contracept, they are declaring “not your will God, but my will be done.” * Is that true? Did each and every married couple say that?

Frankly, I have lost all respect for the NFP crowd because they simply say anything they choose regardless of if meets the Church standards, is true, or appropriate. Bad mouthing others is never the correct approach. Much of the issue involving contraception actually is based in the Church’s ability to “bind”, which is equal to the ability to “loose”. The Church has not cited Devine Revelation on this issue, the references in scripture are not clear or direct. The Magisterium has made interpretation based on scripture which lead to the Church’s “bind” it may be of some interest to read the front section of Humanae Vitae in which the Pope says the Theologians were not in agreement.

“within the commission itself, no full concordance of judgments concerning the moral norms to be proposed had been reached,” #6] ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM
 
Texas_Roofer said:
Yes, I even know where babies come from.

It is simply From post Post #54 “*When married couples contracept, they are declaring “not your will God, but my will be done.” * Is that true? Did each and every married couple say that?

Frankly, I have lost all respect for the NFP crowd because they simply say anything they choose regardless of if meets the Church standards, is true, or appropriate. Bad mouthing others is never the correct approach. Much of the issue involving contraception actually is based in the Church’s ability to “bind”, which is equal to the ability to “loose”. The Church has not cited Devine Revelation on this issue, the references in scripture are not clear or direct. The Magisterium has made interpretation based on scripture which lead to the Church’s “bind” it may be of some interest to read the front section of Humanae Vitae in which the Pope says the Theologians were not in agreement.

“within the commission itself, no full concordance of judgments concerning the moral norms to be proposed had been reached,” #6] ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM
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The Pope specifically stated:
No believer will wish to deny that the teaching authority of the Church is competent to interpret even the natural moral law. It is, in fact, indisputable, as our predecessors have many times declared,[1] that Jesus Christ, when communicating to Peter and to the Apostles His divine authority and sending them to teach all nations His commandments,[2] constituted them as guardians and authentic interpreters of all the moral law, not only, that is, of the law of the Gospel, but also of the natural law, which is also an expression of the will of God, the faithful fulfillment of which is equally necessary for salvation.[3]
Conformably to this mission of hers, the Church has always provided—and even more amply in recent times—a coherent teaching concerning both the nature of marriage and the correct use of conjugal rights and the duties of husband and wife.[4]
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The commission in question had no authority superior to that of the magisterium.
 
Texas Roofer, Do you have a problem with NFP or contraception? I personally am not really sold on NFP. I, rationally, am able to understand the Church’s position and am able to defend its use, but I am not comfortable using it. We are not abstaining at all right now even though I am 27 with four kids and my dh doesn’t make all that much money. I think if the situation got really desperate in the future with regards to finances, I would be more comfortable abstaining completely, but I don’t think my dh would agree with me. :rolleyes: Then again, I think our avoiding children due to concerns over finances would demonstrate a lack of faith in God’s providence. He has always provided us with the opportunity to give our children what they need, often at the very last minute. I like living this way. It has deepened my faith to see God come through again and again so long as we are willing to work until we are delirious. :whacky:
 
FLCathMom said:
Texas Roofer, Do you have a problem with NFP or contraception?
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neither
I personally am not really sold on NFP. I, rationally, am able to understand the Church’s position and am able to defend its use, but I am not comfortable using it. We are not abstaining at all right now even though I am 27 with four kids and my dh doesn’t make all that much money. I think if the situation got really desperate in the future with regards to finances, I would be more comfortable abstaining completely, but I don’t think my dh would agree with me. :rolleyes: Then again, I think our avoiding children due to concerns over finances would demonstrate a lack of faith in God’s providence. He has always provided us with the opportunity to give our children what they need, often at the very last minute. I like living this way. It has deepened my faith to see God come through again and again so long as we are willing to work until we are delirious. :whacky:
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Thank you,
I will not advise you on what is right or wrong in regard to this issue. My opinion is the cooperation between you and dh is very important. Whatever the outcome is, that is between the three of you ( dh, you & god). I am embarrassed to known if you turn to many NFP teachers deceit will be part of the process. However NFP is real and should not be dismissed as an option. Unfortunately you will need to verify what they say as correct or not. Thank you for sharing with us.
 
fellowChristian said:
I’m sorry if Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church don’t fall in line with what you believe,but as a Catholic you should know contraception of any kind is intrinsically evil.

Here is the contridiction with in your own Post

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).

[The goods of conjugal love, which for those who are baptized is sanctified by the sacrament of Matrimony, are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an **openness to the procreation of life./B]

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.
497. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
  1. What are immoral means of birth control?
2370-2372

Every action - for example, **direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which **(either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#“You%20Shall%20Love%20Your%20Neighbour%20as%20Yourself”
As you say you are quoting from the Catholic Church

I am quoting from the Catholic Church and I am getting my info from the Catholic Church. Show me where the Catholic Church allows contraception.

The cafeteria is closed.
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In the first Paragraph it is stated “{are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an **openness to the procreation of life./B]”
And you go on to reenforce that by stating "action - for example, **direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation."
Well NFP not only hinders the possibility of procreating. It renders it impossible. It is the best known form of contraceptive out side of abstinance. Yet you also state:The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
The reality is the conjugal act is for the sanctity of the marrige, it insures that the two stay as one. A mariage w/o it will falter. If the spouses have sex w/o the purpous of procreating it does not do injury to nature It celebrates the Gifts God has bestowed on us. It does not make me an Adulterer it makes me a loving husband a union that God has been a part of and willcontinue to be a part of.
 
True_Irish said:
The reality is the conjugal act is for the sanctity of the marrige, it insures that the two stay as one. A mariage w/o it will falter.
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What about if one of the partners becomes no longer able to particpate in the conjugal act? What if one of the spouses is hospitalized indefinitely? Does the marriage become void? No. It is unfortunate, but it does happen and it is a cross that some must bear.
 
Just so everyone is aware some of my posts come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

The words are not my own.

My own opinion is if we want to have sex we should be prepared that God might bless us with a child. And if we aren’t ready for a child we should not have sex during our fertile time.

1 Corinthians 7

5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

That is why I keep putting the links for the sources.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#“You%20Shall%20Love%20Your%20Neighbour%20as%20Yourself”

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM

livingcatholicism.com/archives/2006/08/contraception_a.html

And this is from one of
the Early Church Fathers

Clement of Alexandria

“Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted” (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (ibid., 2:10:95:3).
 
The union of a man and his wife goes far beyond procreation, and if the fail to unite there will be problems because the will fail to be one.
Click to expand...
In order to become one, a couple has to fully, 100% give themeslves to one another. If the husband is thinking about how he’d rather be watching football or the wife is wishing her husband were Robert Redford, they’re not fully giving themselves to each other and something wonderful is lost.

The same goes for contraceptives. If you say, “I love you more than anything, but not enough to suffer through another baby.”, you’re holding a piece of yourself back. Besides the obvious border that a condom puts between a couple, all contraceptives put up that border of “I love you up to this point, but no further”.

The difference with NFP is you are still showing your openess to kids. You say, “I love you enough that even though we’re both really busy and money is tight and this isn’t the best time for us to necessarily have another kid, I’m going to give myself fully to you.” In that case, God doesn’t have to make something not work (ie-break a condom, keep the pill from working, etc). He can just create a life by making the sex work.

Because NFP is still 100% open to life, you are not saying “My will, not yours, God.” You are saying, “Here’s my will. Now do what you want, God.”

❤️
 
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