Condoms vs. Monthly Abstinence: Either way the intent is to have sex without children (for the time being) ???

[Laurence_of_PA]

I think the title explains itself, but just to give the thread a mission statement:

Why then are condoms condemned?

NFP, Condoms, and Contraception are as hard for me to understand as they are to defend. (in other words: I mean to provoke discussion and not the usual plethora of blatantly “uncharitable responses” I sometimes get)

Thanks in advance…

 

[1ke]

Perhaps you struggle because you do not properly distinguish between the end and the means.

The **end **(spacing births) is not immoral and the Church has never taught that it is.

There are two **means **to achieve this:

self-mastery through abstaining
self-indulgence through contracepting

One is a moral *means *and one is not. To use the sexual faculties as designed by God, each act must be objectively unitive and procreative even if subjectively infertile at that moment.

One may not alter the sex act in any way-- which is what contraception does. One may choose to refrain from the sex act to keep its integrity intact.

 

[1ke]

(in other words: I mean to provoke discussion and not the usual plethora of blatantly “uncharitable responses” I sometimes get)

Thanks in advance…

Perhaps you get uncharitable comments because you do not engage in dialog. Case and point, your post on overpopulation-- to which 58 people have replied but to which you have not returned.

People don’t like it when they spend time responding to posts only to have the OP go MIA and start another post (and a very similar one at that).

 

[Brendan]

If wanted a new HDTV, I could do one of two things.

1. Save and Buy it
2. Rip off an appliance store.

Either way, the intent is the same, to get a new HDTV.

Now getting a new HDTV is not always immoral, but it could be, say out of Envy for a neighbors. It could also be a moral good, to watch Mass with.

So Intent is only one part, Means is another.

The same is true for procreation. One may indend to postpone children. This may be for good reasons or bad reasons. If it’s for bad reasons, then no method (even NFP) is going to make it good.

If it’s for good reasons, we can then look at the method.

One method is consistent with God’s plan for marriage. God created fertility cycles in women and allows them to be uses ( just as God gave us Labor to earn goods with)

Condoms act against God’s plan by including rejection into what should be a unifying action. By wearing a condom, one spuse rejects the others fertility as God created it. NFP accepts God’s design for fertility, condom’s don’t.

So condoms are a method that chooses rejection over unity, as the robbery chooses crime over labor.

 

[Newbie2]

Using condoms, like other forms of contraception, are contra-ception; against conception. It is taking an action against God’s design for fertility, as Brendan put it.

NFP isn’t.

The intent is important, yes, but so is the action.

 

[Abbadon]

I got to say i’m in the same situation as the poster of the initial forum.

One method is consistent with God’s plan for marriage. God created fertility cycles in women and allows them to be uses ( just as God gave us Labor to earn goods with)

And god gave us the intelligence to figure out how to use lemons as contraception, make shirts and shoes, paracetamol.

If you think about it antibiotics interfere with the natural process doesn’t mean its bad.

Niether is population control its not a bad thing. It’s bieng responsible about the children you can have and take care of as well as meeting the physical desires for sexual engagement without causing stress on a family…

Is NFP like the rythem method? I argued this at a youth camp earlier this year, that the only true way is to abstaine completely. A condom intends with a 99% success rate to prevent contraception, the rythem method or any other “natural” method intends to do the same thing with a smaller % of success… So these are both the same.

Then it moved unto naturality of the condom, pill etc… and i argued a more detailed response of the antibiotic example…

In my oppinion, I don’t mind if people use contraception I don’t belive it’s wrong, for the sake of the earth… But if you don’t want to be a hypocrite simply abstaine thats the only way to do it…

Oh i forgot all this only applies if you believe in the monotheistic god, which I’m going to guess most people who post here would. If not then the value system will change depending on your culture and religion…

 

[Brendan]

I got to say i’m in the same situation as the poster of the initial forum.

And god gave us the intelligence to figure out how to use lemons as contraception, make shirts and shoes, paracetamol.

Yep, and God gave us the intelligence to make Atom Bombs and Concentration Camps. Just because our intelligence allows us to do something doesn’t mean that it’s moral to do so.

If you think about it antibiotics interfere with the natural process doesn’t mean its bad.

Antibotics act to return a body to a normal state. Artificial Contraception looks at changing the body’s normal functioning TO an abnormal state. Think about it, the purpose of medicine is to return a body to it’s normal functioning state - except for contraception. There, for some reason, medicine is used to change normal, regular, healthy bodily functioning and disrupt it.

Fertility is not a disease to be fought, but rather a natural funtion of the body that is to be left as God designed it.

Niether is population control its not a bad thing. It’s bieng responsible about the children you can have and take care of as well as meeting the physical desires for sexual engagement without causing stress on a family…

As I mentioned in my post above, the Church DOES recognize that there are legitimate reasons for postponing children. That is not the issue, the issue is the means to accomplish that. Like buying a TV vs. stealing one.

Is NFP like the rythem method? I argued this at a youth camp earlier this year, that the only true way is to abstaine completely. A condom intends with a 99% success rate to prevent contraception, the rythem method or any other “natural” method intends to do the same thing with a smaller % of success… So these are both the same.

Rythum was a method that counted days from the last menstrual cycle.

NFP measures bodily changes that indicate when ovulation will occur, changes in basil body temp, changes in mucus and changes in cervical position. It is very scientific and has a HIGHER rate of sucess than condoms (97-99% for NFP and 95-97 for condoms). In 1995 China declared NFP to be so effective that it should be taught to all married couples ( and we all know how pariticular the Chinese Government is on having more children)

And, it has the advantage of working both ways. It help couples who are having problems concieving to determine when ovulation is occuring. My wife and I used NFP to HAVE our children.

.
In my oppinion, I don’t mind if people use contraception I don’t belive it’s wrong, for the sake of the earth… But if you don’t want to be a hypocrite simply abstaine thats the only way to do it…

Why? God designed a fertility system so that each use of the marital privlidge does not necessarily result in conception. Yes a couple may choose to abstain, but they are not required to under the moral law.

Oh i forgot all this only applies if you believe in the monotheistic god, which I’m going to guess most people who post here would. If not then the value system will change depending on your culture and religion…

 

[Newbie2]

I got to say i’m in the same situation as the poster of the initial forum.

And god gave us the intelligence to figure out how to use lemons as contraception, make shirts and shoes, paracetamol.

If you think about it antibiotics interfere with the natural process doesn’t mean its bad.

Niether is population control its not a bad thing. It’s bieng responsible about the children you can have and take care of as well as meeting the physical desires for sexual engagement without causing stress on a family…

Is NFP like the rythem method? I argued this at a youth camp earlier this year, that the only true way is to abstaine completely. A condom intends with a 99% success rate to prevent contraception, the rythem method or any other “natural” method intends to do the same thing with a smaller % of success… So these are both the same.

Then it moved unto naturality of the condom, pill etc… and i argued a more detailed response of the antibiotic example…

In my oppinion, I don’t mind if people use contraception I don’t belive it’s wrong, for the sake of the earth… But if you don’t want to be a hypocrite simply abstaine thats the only way to do it…

Oh i forgot all this only applies if you believe in the monotheistic god, which I’m going to guess most people who post here would. If not then the value system will change depending on your culture and religion…

Try to follow the “contra” angle in contra-ception; that’s what I think you’re missing. Artificial contraception is taking an action directed directly against conception, NFP and the “rhythym method” do not.

The argument of using antibiotics or for that matter any other medication to return the body to health and comparing that to contraception is apples and oranges, morally speaking.

 

[Joan_M]

I think the title explains itself, but just to give the thread a mission statement:

Why then are condoms condemned?

NFP, Condoms, and Contraception are as hard for me to understand as they are to defend. (in other words: I mean to provoke discussion and not the usual plethora of blatantly “uncharitable responses” I sometimes get)

Thanks in advance…

Condoms are condemned because the fact that they are worn means that they change sex and make it NOT a marital act but, rather, something like mutual masturbation.

The marital act of sex is designed by God to make one body of two people. Condoms destroy that.

 

[dal11]

I always find it funny when this is argued. For thousands and thousands of years this was wrong. Then all of a sudden since the sixties we finally figured it out that this was right. All the generations before us didn’t know what they were talking about. I sure am glad we came a long and straightened things out.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Once again for those who missed it…

Let’s compare sex to eating. Both natural functions. Designed for a purpose.

Okay, say you don’t want to gain weight. According to God’s plan, you can eat less, abstain from eating for a time altogether, fast and offer it up for your spiritual welfare. Or you can exercise and walk more.

All are natural functions that are in keeping with God’s plan for your body. They all respect the act of eating itself and do nothing to interfere with the act of eating once you have taken the first bite.

Or you can use wrong and harmful methods to lose weight. You can gorge yourself anyway. Then you can stick your finger down your throat and induce vomiting. You can take diuretics and laxatives to purge your body of the food you have already eaten. You can take harmful chemicals like Phen-Fen and get heart problems from it.

While some of these practices can help lose weight in the short term, they are bad for the body, bad for the spirit and brain, and do nothing to help the person to really live a life that is in keeping with dignity and self control. In the end they can destroy bodily health and lead to death even.

The means to the end matter. Having sex with your spouse with contraception is like accepting a dinner invitation and bringing along a feather so you can go throw up right after the dinner. An insult to the whole idea of joining together and the effort of the hostess to prepare the meal. It says “I’ll go through the motions of eating with you, but I don’t want any lasting effects of this dinner. I don’t want this food to become part of me. I reject it.”

Same with sex. You’re going through the motions with contraception, but you’re saying to your spouse and God, “I don’t want to be completely united with you and have any risk that we will create a soul that will tie us together forever. I will not cooperate with God’s plan for a new life. I will actively thwart His will if I can. I will take over His place as Author of Life.”

So there. You’ve slapped both your spouse and God with a grave insult.

There is a difference between saying “No” and “Not yet, unless it is Your will.” ABC is the difference.

 

[Abbadon]

Yea see thats arguable,

Antibotics act to return a body to a normal state.

Yes return OUR bodies to a natural state. By killing out a generation of bacteria or virus, which at one point in nature kept human populations under control. See it’s this whole definition of what is natural. See viruses and bacteria are natural, antibiotics aren’t. There are gay geese and giraffes and another plethora of other documented animals, therefore it is apart of nature, therefore it is natural. whether it is “moral” will depend on your culture and upbringing.

My wife and I used NFP to HAVE our children.

Ahhh okay so thats NFP. Well thats fine you used it to have children but what happens if you use a natural process to intentionally not have children? What is the point of a contraceptive, to not convince, when you use the NFP method to a higher success rate than a condom what are you doing but not conceiving so whats the difference?

Therefore is it okay to use a lemon as a contraceptive? I mean lemons are much more natural than antibiotics.

My whole point with the antibiotics was that of the fact that antibiotics aren’t natural. There artificial, they disrupt/intervene the bodies natural system of doing things, but for the purpose of getting better. Chemo therapy does the same, it totaly rapes your body but for the purpose to help you fight cancer. Cutting off a leg when theres no hope left to stop the spread of a flesh eating super virus mutilates your body. Smoking marijuana to stimulate eating in cancer patients or to precent psychotic episodes. Oh smoking, there was this one for smoking, for something to do with bowls and digestion i can’t remember, but doctors prescribe it. Oh WWII Winston Churchill had to allow the bombing of an allied city so that the Nazi’s wouldn’t know that they had cracked thier code. My point is that sometimes from terrible acts can come a great good.I pulled that straight out of KotOR…

Why? God designed a fertility system so that each use of the marital privlidge does not necessarily result in conception. Yes a couple may choose to abstain, but they are not required to under the moral law.

Okay I get what your saying here. But if your using NFP to not conceive why don’t you just use a condom or contraception or if your desperate in using something natural a lemon? Save yourself alot of fuss… I think i said this twice…

 

[Abbadon]

I always find it funny when this is argued. For thousands and thousands of years this was wrong. Then all of a sudden since the sixties we finally figured it out that this was right. All the generations before us didn’t know what they were talking about. I sure am glad we came a long and straightened things out.

I’m assuming sarcasm here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but to that i reply. Yea and crusades and witch burnings were fun, and i loved the good old days when you could lynch a colored man because it’s okay as they are a lower and separate species to whites. And for thousands and thousands of years we’ve been as a species waring with each other over land and trivialities. You can hardly use oh we’ve been assuming it for a long time therefore it must be right to justify something.

 

[Abbadon]

hen you can stick your finger down your throat and induce vomiting.

I’m sure last time i checked vomiting was a natural bodily function… As are my eyes bleeding after playing World of Warcraft for 2 days straight (thats a joke)…

An insult to the whole idea of joining together and the effort of the hostess to prepare the meal.

I have to say that strangely i have a story for this. One day me and a friend was having pizza. We had ordered one more pizza than we could handle. Now we were both very full, we could just let that pizza go to waste or we could eat it enjoy it and then throw up… Having had a bottle of wine throughout our meal we obviously chose the latter… Afterwards on teh way home it was pretty funny…

Yea to the whole argument the way i think you have presented it i say the same thing i said above about the chemo therapy and amputations. Sometimes a great evil must be wrought for the greater good.

 

[thistle]

Looks like this is another thread the OP has started then abandoned!

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Okay I get what your saying here. But if your using NFP to not conceive why don’t you just use a condom or contraception or if your desperate in using something natural a lemon? Save yourself alot of fuss… I think i said this twice…

I think that the thing that you are missing here, especially in this arguement that “if you are avoiding, why not use a condom ‘just to be sure’ that you do not conceive” is completely missing the point of what the marital embrace is each and everytime.

The marital embrace is the giving of ourselves to our spouse totally, fully, faithfully, and fruitfully. We are giving them everything that we have (just as Christ does for the Church, his bride) to our spouse. We hold nothing back.

Having said that, we must keep in mind that every act (every act) of sexual intercourse with our spouse must be:

#1 Unitive - uniting the spouses in the marital embrace giving of themselves to one another as described above.

#2 Procreative - always open to new life

From the Catechism:

2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

Now getting back to what you are saying about avoiding a pregnancy, that is possible during the infertile times of the month. Those that practice NFP know when they are fertile and infertile. It is not a sin to have sex during an infertile time, you can do that, you are still open to the possibility of human life even if you are avoiding.

Again from the Catechism

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil

By using a condom you have taken out one of the essential purposes of the marital embrace, the procreative aspect. God is in control of our lives. Plain and simple. By using artificial contraception, you are telling God that He can be incharge of everything else in your life, but your sexual life, you will be in charge of. You will be the god of your sexual life. How wrong is that? God knows all about sex. God created sex!! He is the one that is in charge.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Perhaps you get uncharitable comments because you do not engage in dialog. Case and point, your post on overpopulation-- to which 58 people have replied but to which you have not returned.

People don’t like it when they spend time responding to posts only to have the OP go MIA and start another post (and a very similar one at that).

Just wanted to echo your frustrations on this. I find it very disrespectful to try and “stir the pot” with a post and then avoid giving anyone else the courtesy of returning to the thread that you created and followup.

 

[mercygate]

I’m assuming sarcasm here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but to that i reply. Yea and crusades and witch burnings were fun, and i loved the good old days when you could lynch a colored man because it’s okay as they are a lower and separate species to whites. And for thousands and thousands of years we’ve been as a species waring with each other over land and trivialities. You can hardly use oh we’ve been assuming it for a long time therefore it must be right to justify something.

Ignoring your sarcasm here, although the fact that you have indulged it speaks of your intent regarding this discussion.

NFP does not distort, thwart, or alter a natural human act of intercourse.

NFP can be used with the intent selfishly to limit family size. In that case the intent would be defective and participate in the nature of sin.

“Natural vs. unnatural” is not the fundamental issue. Even a natural act, such as *coitus interruptus, *that distorts and thwarts a natural human act of intercourse is immoral because it violates the primary purpose of intercourse in marriage, which is the union of the couple towards the procreation and protection of children.

It was not until 1930 that ANY Christian body accepted the use of contraception in marriage as possibly moral. The opportunity to use NFP is actually a big step forward for Christian couples in that it allows them to engage in the marital act at all despite a grave reason for limiting their family size.

 

[Abbadon]

Yea i agree with everyone you should always come back to the pot and be stirring regularly… Or else it will burn… But yea i see this conversation looping now so I’m going to end it on my part by saying.

Your stance on the matter will depend on your culture, upbringing, education and other variables. So as long as your choice to or not to doesn’t hurt another sentient being we should not judge another’s morals and infringe our belief system on someone else. For what are morals but fairytales we tell our children…

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Yea i agree with everyone you should always come back to the pot and be stirring regularly… Or else it will burn… But yea i see this conversation looping now so I’m going to end it on my part by saying.

Your stance on the matter will depend on your culture, upbringing, education and other variables. So as long as your choice to or not to doesn’t hurt another sentient being we should not judge another’s morals and infringe our belief system on someone else. For what are morals but fairytales we tell our children…

I guess that hurting your soul is acceptable then right? Just use a condom, sure why not, as long as at the end of the night YOU are happy with your decision, who cares right? Ignore the Church and her teachings, what does she know? Along that lines, what does God know?

Very arrogant remarks that you have made here.

No one here, no one, is “judging” anyone else. My, my, my how quick we are to use the ‘thou shall not judge’ card.

Moral = fairytales? Are you serious?

Be sure not to tell someone that birth control or abortion or murder is wrong so that you do not “infringe our belief system on someone else.”

Good thing Jesus Christ and his disciples did not follow your line of thinking.