Conference on Evolution

[StAnastasia]

But…when it comes to humanity’s biological origins…it is. That’s what’s giving me fits about Genesis 1-11. If it’s factually false, it’s going to stay factually false in spite of all the creative ways we might develop to interpret it. And I can’t ask people to base their lives and behavior on a collection of false facts, even if it was constructed with the best of intentions (e.g., to lead people out of polytheism into monotheism). This would all be so much more reasonable to accept if the Bible were held to be one link in a chain of progressive, not final, revelations, but that’s not the way the Church understands it or has ever understood it – which is why I find it next to impossible to blindly obey. In my opinion, based on all I’ve read, the Church has been tried and found wanting – it isn’t worthy of the submission it demands from me.–Mike

Mike, referring to Genesis as “factually false” is perhaps more tendentious than you need to be, and it misses the point. I could dismiss Aesop’s fable about the fox and the grapes as being factually false both because foxes cannot speak and because they don’t eat grapes. But wouldn’t I be missing the point of the story? I could dismiss the story of the Edenic temptation as factually false because serpents don’t talk, but wouldn’t I be missing the theological truth underlying the symbol? I could dismiss the Eucharist because after the epiklesis and words of institution the wine remains chemically wine, not human blood, but wouldn’t I be entirely missing the theological sense of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist?

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

Thank you Anastatia. What are some of the proofs for evolution as you define it or rather within the definition that you accept?Annie

39, there are numerous categories of evidence for evolution.

These include

1. Biodiversity and biogeography
2. Comparative anatomy and development
3. Fossil record
4. Molecular biology and genetics

 

[Annie39]

39, there are numerous categories of evidence for evolution.

These include

1. Biodiversity and biogeography
2. Comparative anatomy and development
3. Fossil record
4. Molecular biology and genetics

I would be interested if you would choose one category and post proof from it. (Maybe the Fossil record?)

 

[mpartyka]

I could dismiss Aesop’s fable about the fox and the grapes as being factually false both because foxes cannot speak and because they don’t eat grapes. But wouldn’t I be missing the point of the story? I could dismiss the story of the Edenic temptation as factually false because serpents don’t talk, but wouldn’t I be missing the theological truth underlying the symbol? I could dismiss the Eucharist because after the epiklesis and words of institution the wine remains chemically wine, not human blood, but wouldn’t I be entirely missing the theological sense of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist?

Aesop never intended his fables to be taken as factual, nor is there any evidence that any group of people took his stories to be anything more than fables. How can you say the same about the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall? Even today the Church (especially the Pope in Humani Generis) insists that there were a literal Adam and a literal Eve who are the literal ancestors of literally everyone living today.

As for the Eucharist, a better analogy would be to say, “Let’s say Christ’s death on the cross never happened. Instead, we find evidence that He actually was imprisoned for the rest of His natural life and died in prison. Does it make any sense now to continue the tradition of the Eucharist now that we know it is based on events that never actually took place?”

–Mike

 

[StAnastasia]

39, there are numerous categories of evidence for evolution.

39, to take them one at a time,let’s start with biodiversity and biogeography. Here are some resources:

Island Biogeography: ecology, evolution, and conservation
This textbook synopsis provides a condensed introduction to the field of biogeography. Hosted by the School of Geography and the Environment at Oxford University.

Evidence Supporting Biological Evolution
This site explains how fossil, molecular, biogeographic, and comparative anatomical studies provide evidence for evolution. The illustrations must be loaded individually, but are worth the trouble. Hosted by the National Academy of Sciences.

Evolution: Converging Lines of Evidence
In this article, author P. Wesley Edwards discusses the gamut of evidence for evolution, showing converging lines of evidence from the fields of paleontology, biogeography, molecular biology, embryology, and comparative anatomy. Hosted by the Freethought Debater.

Island Biogeography and Evolution
In this activity, high school students perform biogeographic analysis to infer the evolutionary history of a group of three lizard species in the Canary Islands. Teacher instructions and a variety of possible outcomes of the activity are included. Hosted by the University of California Museum of Paleontology.

Observed Instances of Speciation
This Talk.Origins discussion begins with a clear and thorough explanation of the difficulties of the species concept, then moves on to review the extensive primary literature (to 1995), organized by speciation mechanism. The bibliography is enormous. Hosted by Talk.Origins.

Speciation: This site provides a clear explanation for how three basic evolutionary mechanisms – sympatric, allopatric, and parapatric speciation – work. Hosted by the University of Miami.

The Evidence for Evolution: Biogeography
This site explains how the biogeography of organisms, which keeps closely related species in fairly close proximity, provides further evidence for evolution. The role of plate tectonics in determining geographic locations of organisms is also discussed. Hosted by Nova Southeastern University.

Biodiversity is a Guarantee of Evolution
This transcript of an interview with Nobel Prize-winning microbiologist Werner Arber reveals his opinions about the origins of biodiversity and its evolutionary and ecological consequences. By Serafin Garcia Ibanez [UNESCO Courier 49 (1996): 4-8].

Biogeography
This college-level text provides a thorough introduction to the principles of biogeography, and includes the original map of zoogeographic regions drawn by Alfred Russel Wallace. By James H. Brown and Mark V. Lomolino [Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates, Inc., 1998].

Early Cambrian Paleogeography and Tectonic History: A Biogeographic Approach
This analysis shows how biogeographical and geophysical studies can inform each other, using the breakup of the supercontinent Rodinia during the early Cambrian as a case in point. By Bruce S. Lierberman [Geology 25 (1997): 1039-1043].

Early Hominid Biogeography: This paper compares hypothetical biogeographical patterns of primitive hominids with known dispersal patterns of Plio-Pleistocene African mammals. By David S. Strait and Bernard A. Wood [Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 96 (1999): 9196-9201].

Endless Forms: Species and Speciation
This book contains up-to-date information about species concepts, speciation modes, reproductive isolating mechanisms, and hybridization. Edited by Daniel J. Howard and Stewart H. Berlocher [Cambridge: Oxford University Press, 1998].

Evolution on Islands: Intended for an advanced scientific audience, this book provides an introduction to the field of island biogeography and individual chapters detailing biogeographical studies of plants and animals. Speciation receives much attention, and the bibliography is extensive. Edited by Peter R. Grant [New York: Oxford University Press, 1998].

Genes, Peoples and Languages: In this book, the author explains the historical spread of genes, peoples, cultures, and languages through Europe in the past 5,000 years, based on genetic, anthropological, and biogeographic evidence. By Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza [Translated by Mark Seielstad. New York: North Point Press, 2000].

Populations, Species, and Evolution: The abridged version of the classic 1963 text Animal Species and Evolution explains the biological species concept in the context of animal evolution. By Ernst Mayr [Cambridge: Belknap, Harvard University Press, 1970].

The Beak of the Finch
This book is a beautifully written chronicle of more than three decades of study of evolution observed firsthand among the Galapagos finches. By Jonathan Weiner [New York: Vintage Books, 1999].

The Geographical Distribution of Animals
This enormous two-volume text essentially explains “what lives where and why,” based on Wallace’s developing tenets of zoogeography. By Alfred Russel Wallace [New York: Harper, 1876].

The Origin and Function of Biodiversity
In this scientific paper, the author explains how biodiversity originates, evolves, and becomes extinct. In addition, he discusses the importance of biodiversity to an ecosystem’s ability to adapt to environmental change. By O.T. Solbrig [Environment 33 (1991): 16-26].

Vent Fauna and Plate Tectonics
This short paper discusses the relationship between current biogeographies of hydrothermal vent communities and past configurations of Earth’s tectonic plates. By Laura Garwin [Nature 379 (1996): 492].

Evolution of the Eye
Zoologist Dan Erik Nilsson demonstrates how the complex human eye could have evolved from simple light-sensitive cells. From Evolution: “Darwin’s Dangerous Idea.”

 

[edwest2]

Ed, it’ll be a tough sell to tell the world’s geneticists that they are wasting their careers by discovering things contrary to a literal interpretation of one faith tradition’s scriptures. It will be a thankless task for which I’ll not volunteer.

I’m not saying that. The Church is affirming the fact that two individuals, Adam and Eve, existed, sinned, and are the parents of all of us. That’s why I quoted Our Sunday Visitor – to show my fellow Catholics that Church teaching has not changed on this issue.

It is affirmed elsewhere in the Bible that through one did sin enter the world. One man.

Once again, would you write the Pope to give him the news that genetics does not support this? What do you think he would say?

Divine revelation is divine revelation. Jesus Christ is a fact.

Peace,
Ed

 

[StAnastasia]

As for the Eucharist, a better analogy would be to say, “Let’s say Christ’s death on the cross never happened. Instead, we find evidence that He actually was imprisoned for the rest of His natural life and died in prison. Does it make any sense now to continue the tradition of the Eucharist now that we know it is based on events that never actually took place?”–Mike

No, that would not make sense. But Christ did die on the cross; he wasn’t imprisoned, and the reality of his presence has been experienced by the Church from the Apostolic era to 2009.

 

[StAnastasia]

Once again, would you write the Pope to give him the news that genetics does not support this? What do you think he would say? Divine revelation is divine revelation. Jesus Christ is a fact.Peace,Ed

I wouldn’t write a letter, as that’s not how theological exchange takes places. I will send his secretary a copy of my article when it is completed.

 

[StAnastasia]

I would be interested if you would choose one category and post proof from it. (Maybe the Fossil record?)

By “post proof” what do you mean? This sounds like a Creationist strategy. Evolutionary biologists don’t speak in terms of “proof” but rather of compelling evidence. I’ve already posted links to some examples from the enormous corpus of convergent evidence.

 

[mpartyka]

I would be interested if you would choose one category and post proof from it. (Maybe the Fossil record?)

Actually, I think genetics is where you find the best proof of common descent, which is a foundation-stone of evolution theory. Prove common descent to a creationist and you’re done – no objections to evolution the creationist could raise from that moment on would matter.

I recommend Daniel Fairbanks’ book Relics of Eden. He gives sufficient proof (for me, anyway) that humans and chimpanzees descended from a common ancestor species.

–Mike

 

[Annie39]

By “post proof” what do you mean? This sounds like a Creationist strategy. Evolutionary biologists don’t speak in terms of “proof” but rather of compelling evidence. I’ve already posted links to some examples from the enormous corpus of convergent evidence.

“to take them one at a time,let’s start with biodiversity and biogeography. Here are some resources:”

Anastatia, if someone asked me for some proof that the Catholic Church was the true Church I would not reply by giving them tasks to read the Bible and many Church Fathers. I might however begin by quoting from the N.T. and then some Fathers. By listing books that ostensibly proof evolution you have not only not proved your belief, but you have shown no evidence for your belief.

“By “post proof” what do you mean? This sounds like a Creationist strategy. Evolutionary biologists don’t speak in terms of “proof” but rather of compelling evidence. I’ve already posted links to some examples from the enormous corpus of convergent evidence.

I see your point Anastatisa (I suppose). So would you please tell me some of compelling evidence of which you speak?

 

[mpartyka]

No, that would not make sense.

Right, because we commemorate things that actually happened, not fictional events. We commemorate people who actually existed, not fictional characters.

But let’s go with the “fable” interpretation of Genesis 1-11 for a bit and say that the stories in Genesis up to the introduction of Abraham are all fables which have been woven together into a single narrative – maybe the people described there are real, but maybe not; maybe those events happened, and maybe they didn’t. That wouldn’t give me such heartburn if it weren’t for the fact that practically none of the Fathers saw Genesis 1-11 that way. The overwhelming majority of the Fathers took Genesis 1-11 literally. Granted, the Fathers had no fossil or genetic or geological evidence to support a challenge to the Genesis accounts, but they also had nearly no expectation that any evidence ever could arise to challenge the Genesis accounts. They believed in Genesis hook, line, and sinker, and if St. Paul’s admonition to the Corinthians was that they “should all say the same thing,” how can we really believe ourselves to be of one faith with the Fathers when in the case of Adam and Eve we are most certainly not saying the same things?

–Mike

 

[Annie39]

Actually, I think genetics is where you find the best proof of common descent, which is a foundation-stone of evolution theory. Prove common descent to a creationist and you’re done – no objections to evolution the creationist could raise from that moment on would matter.

I recommend Daniel Fairbanks’ book Relics of Eden. He gives sufficient proof (for me, anyway) that humans and chimpanzees descended from a common ancestor species.

–Mike

Due to financial setback I will not be ordering books for a while. Would you give me, in a nutshell the most compelling proof (or evidence) that is presented in the book?

 

[StAnastasia]

see your point Anastatisa (I suppose). So would you please tell me some of compelling evidence of which you speak?

Thirty-Nine, the most compelling evidence is from genetics, and this even Pope Benedict accepts. It is clear that all life on earth shares a common lineage.

Biogeography – that is, the radiation of species from centers of origin is another category of evidence. Paleontology, the fossil record, homology and comparative anatomy all offer consilient evidence.

StAnastasia

 

[Annie39]

Thirty-Nine, the most compelling evidence is from genetics, and this even Pope Benedict accepts. It is clear that all life on earth shares a common lineage.

Biogeography – that is, the radiation of species from centers of origin is another category of evidence. Paleontology, the fossil record, homology and comparative anatomy all offer consilient evidence.

StAnastasia

And what exactly is some of the compelling evidence?

 

[StAnastasia]

The overwhelming majority of the Fathers took Genesis 1-11 literally. Granted, the Fathers had no fossil or genetic or geological evidence to support a challenge to the Genesis accounts, but they also had nearly no expectation that any evidence ever could arise to challenge the Genesis accounts. They believed in Genesis hook, line, and sinker, and if St. Paul’s admonition to the Corinthians was that they “should all say the same thing,” how can we really believe ourselves to be of one faith with the Fathers when in the case of Adam and Eve we are most certainly not saying the same things?–Mike

Because with respect to the central kerygma – the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus – we are saying the same thing as the Patristic greats. Peripheral details pale in comparison.

 

[StAnastasia]

And what exactly is some of the compelling evidence?

That all life on earth shares a common genetic lineage. That we can trace species through radiation from their centers of origin. That the fossil record reflects evolution over time. That comparative anatomy and homologies demonstrate common ancestry.

I encourage you to explore the UCMP’s interactive educational “Understanding Evolution” website: evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/tour.php. It’s free and available to the public.

StAnastasia

 

[Annie39]

That all life on earth shares a common genetic lineage. That we can trace species through radiation from their centers of origin. That the fossil record reflects evolution over time. That comparative anatomy and homologies demonstrate common ancestry.

I encourage you to explore the UCMP’s interactive educational “Understanding Evolution” website: evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/tour.php. It’s free and available to the public.

StAnastasia

“That all life on earth shares a common genetic lineage. That we can trace species through radiation from their centers of origin. That the fossil record reflects evolution over time.”

Anastatia, would you give me specific evidence of any of this. For example: Please give scientific evidence that all life on earth shares a common genetic lineage. Which fossils reflects evolution over time? Please post scientific evidence.

 

[StAnastasia]

“That all life on earth shares a common genetic lineage. That we can trace species through radiation from their centers of origin. That the fossil record reflects evolution over time.”

Anastatia, would you give me specific evidence of any of this. For example: Please give scientific evidence that all life on earth shares a common genetic lineage. Which fossils reflects evolution over time? Please post scientific evidence.

Thirty-Nine-Articles, “And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

I have offered you numerous resources, and I have even explained some of them. 100,000 biologists – many of them Catholics, some of them priests – use evolution every day. They write books, publish articles with their results, and speak at conferences. It’s clear that nothing at all that I can say will satisfy you. If you refuse to educate yourself about evolution, I refuse to spend all morning playing your game of cat-and-mouse.

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

I have offered you numerous resources, and I have even explained some of them. 100,000 biologists – many of them Catholics, some of them priests – use evolution every day. They write books, publish articles with their results, and speak at conferences. It’s clear that nothing at all that I can say will satisfy you. If you refuse to educate yourself about evolution, I refuse to spend all morning playing your game of cat-and-mouse.StAnastasia

The resources listed in post # 682 offer you a place to start.