Conference on Evolution

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You recall, though, that Abraham and Isaac went up the mountain alone, don’t you? Abraham didn’t want anyone else around and told none of his servants what he intended to do. Even Isaac was kept in the dark until the time was at hand. So, I think even Abraham knew, “If I try to do this in front of witnesses, they’ll think I’m out of my mind,” and so he chose to leave his servants behind and go up with Isaac alone.
–Mike
Yeah – that was a really good plan! If I ever do decide to sacrificed one of my kids to Jehovah, I’ll do it in a wilderness area, and pretend he or she got dragged off and eaten by a bgear or a cougar, leaving (shucks!) no evidence. I certainly won’t leave an altar with a pile of bones on top of it.👍
 
The kind of God who is not omniscient, and who would need to set such a test rather than know what Abraham was thinking without having to test at all.

rossum
The kind of God who had a choice to make robots or because He loved them so give them free will.
 
The kind of God who had a choice to make robots or because He loved them so give them free will.
Free will? Follow my command to slaughter your son? That is a loving god who imparts free will? And that god knew what the outcome would be. So why play that game?
 
You can ask Him when you see Him.

Here is something to help your understanding of the OT


  1. *]Father Who Keeps His Promises - God’s Covenant Love in Scripture

  1. Referring me to a book I don’t have isn’t very helpful in the present discussion. Maybe you could explain to me how that god is worthy of worship? The god that commands a person to slaughter his son. Tell me how that god loves so much that he would do that to his creation. The same god that requires the bloody sacrifice of his son. Why so much blood shed. It’s so bronze age and superstitious. I think we have progressed far beyond that sort of primitive way of thinking.
 
Referring me to a book I don’t have isn’t very helpful in the present discussion. Maybe you could explain to me how that god is worthy of worship? The god that commands a person to slaughter his son. Tell me how that god loves so much that he would do that to his creation. The same god that requires the bloody sacrifice of his son. Why so much blood shed. It’s so bronze age and superstitious. I think we have progressed far beyond that sort of primitive way of thinking.
Because you are uneducated.

Progressed? Enlightened? Progressed beyond truth? Ha. You are a classic example of someone who has raised himself above God and has no real understanding of humility.

A suggestion - leave you little world of skepticism and spend some time in the light of Christ. You cannot find Christ where you are looking.
 
Because you are uneducated.
That isn’t true. In fact, I am very well educated even in Catholic thought.
Progressed? Enlightened? Progressed beyond truth? Ha. You are a classic example of someone who has raised himself above God and has no real understanding of humility.
Yes, progressed beyond bronze age superstition. If that is what you call truth then I want none of it. I have no concept of raising myself above God, and I admit that I am not very humble except in my clinical, surgical, work. When people trust me with their life I am truly humbled. That is an incredible level of humility that I thank goodness I can feel.
A suggestion - leave you little world of skepticism and spend some time in the light of Christ. You cannot find Christ where you are looking.
My world isn’t little, it’s very broad. How can you in good faith make such demeaning statements? Besides that, I thought the discussion was about Old Testament stuff, not Christ.
 
Referring me to a book I don’t have isn’t very helpful in the present discussion. Maybe you could explain to me how that god is worthy of worship? The god that commands a person to slaughter his son. Tell me how that god loves so much that he would do that to his creation. The same god that requires the bloody sacrifice of his son. Why so much blood shed. It’s so bronze age and superstitious. I think we have progressed far beyond that sort of primitive way of thinking.
Indeed we have progressed, but it’s not fair to look back upon how God instructed the people of past ages and presume he could have dealt with them then in the same fashion as he deals with us today.

Consider that when Moses originally came down from the mountain, God had given him the Ten Commandments. That’s it. But when he came down, he saw that the Israelites had already fallen into idol worship. So, after dealing with the idolaters, he returned to the mountain and received from God not only the Ten Commandments but also the whole levitical system of sacrifices, offerings, washings, dietary restrictions, etc., etc. – something closer to the religious observances they knew in Egypt, but structured around and focused upon God. The Israelites had shown through their idolatry that they simply weren’t ready to utterly discard the religious lifestyle they’d known in Egypt, so God met them halfway by giving them the Law of Moses. It was a step up from what they’d known, but it was incomplete, bringing only judgment and not salvation, and it was finally set aside when Christ came and instituted the New Covenant.

My point is that God has dealt with humanity in different ways at different times depending on whatever stages humanity was in at those times. The Mosaic Law looks unnecessarily bloody to us, yes, but that’s because we have progressed beyond the times that the Law was meant for. Similarly, the Israelites in Moses’ time could not have dealt with the freedom that comes with the New Covenant – they weren’t ready for that kind of freedom. So, when you look through the Old Testament, keep in mind that you’re looking back in time to a day when humankind was indeed more primitive and needed the signs, symbols, and sacrifices to stay on the path God intended for them.

–Mike
 
Indeed we have progressed, but it’s not fair to look back upon how God instructed the people of past ages and presume he could have dealt with them then in the same fashion as he deals with us today.

Consider that when Moses originally came down from the mountain, God had given him the Ten Commandments. That’s it. But when he came down, he saw that the Israelites had already fallen into idol worship. So, after dealing with the idolaters, he returned to the mountain and received from God not only the Ten Commandments but also the whole levitical system of sacrifices, offerings, washings, dietary restrictions, etc., etc. – something closer to the religious observances they knew in Egypt, but structured around and focused upon God. The Israelites had shown through their idolatry that they simply weren’t ready to utterly discard the religious lifestyle they’d known in Egypt, so God met them halfway by giving them the Law of Moses. It was a step up from what they’d known, but it was incomplete, bringing only judgment and not salvation, and it was finally set aside when Christ came and instituted the New Covenant.

My point is that God has dealt with humanity in different ways at different times depending on whatever stages humanity was in at those times. The Mosaic Law looks unnecessarily bloody to us, yes, but that’s because we have progressed beyond the times that the Law was meant for. Similarly, the Israelites in Moses’ time could not have dealt with the freedom that comes with the New Covenant – they weren’t ready for that kind of freedom. So, when you look through the Old Testament, keep in mind that you’re looking back in time to a day when humankind was indeed more primitive and needed the signs, symbols, and sacrifices to stay on the path God intended for them.

–Mike
Let me first express my sincere appreciation of your well written and very thoughtful reply. That is a breath of fresh air!

If what you say is true, and I believe that it is, than have we not also progressed beyond the New Testament need for the blood sacrifice of Christ?
 
That isn’t true. In fact, I am very well educated even in Catholic thought.

Yes, progressed beyond bronze age superstition. If that is what you call truth then I want none of it. I have no concept of raising myself above God, and I admit that I am not very humble except in my clinical, surgical, work. When people trust me with their life I am truly humbled. That is an incredible level of humility that I thank goodness I can feel.

My world isn’t little, it’s very broad. How can you in good faith make such demeaning statements? Besides that, I thought the discussion was about Old Testament stuff, not Christ.
Then you wouldn’t be so caught up in the areas of the OT that trouble you so. Perhaps someone should have cleaned up the text so it wouldn’t offend people, but then it wouldn’t be true. We have to deal with these truths. God tried to set man on a path and man was acting like a terrible two year old tantrums and all. I nor others cannot answer some of the questions you ask without building a foundation. It’s akin to a one year old going near a stove and trying to explain thermodynamics to him. Most parents start by telling him it’s hot and associating it with pain. As he grows in understanding and experience more complexity can be broken out. That is why I pointed you to the book. It will help you get a handle on what was going on. I believe somewhere in your learning (and many Catholics including me) quite a few chapters were skipped.

Why did I bring up Christ? He is God. To understand one must understand the whole Bible. This is all related.

Intellectualism aside we discover Christ through personal experience. Perhaps even I spend too much time on CAF on logic, evidence, etc… and not the personal beauty of truth.

I made the statement on your narrow skepticism because of the posts you write. Some of your posts sound like a teenager who just read his first atheist book. That tells me that something is missing.
 
I made the statement on your narrow skepticism because of the posts you write. Some of your posts sound like a teenager who just read his first atheist book. That tells me that something is missing.
In who, you or me?
 
That is undoubtedly very true. I am working on it as hard as I know how, and I appreciate your help. It’s a difficult trip, no?
Our Deacon took us through a little trip Sunday at Mass. He asked us to look around and try and remember all we see that is brown. Then he said close your eyes and recall all that is purple. No one seen purple because we were looking for brown. Everyday we are spending time looking for brown not even caring if purple exists. It is no surprise that we do not see God.
 
Our Deacon took us through a little trip Sunday at Mass. He asked us to look around and try and remember all we see that is brown. Then he said close your eyes and recall all that is purple. No one seen purple because we were looking for brown. Everyday we are spending time looking for brown not even caring if purple exists. It is no surprise that we do not see God.
I am sorry, that is so simplistic that I can’t use it for anything. I can see God if that is what I want to see. Can you see God in the Old Testament? I mean in the retched horror of some of the depictions of God? I can’t believe in that kind of god. Brown or purple doesn’t matter, it’s a very nasty god that doesn’t belong to a belief in a loving god.
 
I am sorry, that is so simplistic that I can’t use it for anything. I can see God if that is what I want to see. Can you see God in the Old Testament? I mean in the retched horror of some of the depictions of God? I can’t believe in that kind of god. Brown or purple doesn’t matter, it’s a very nasty god that doesn’t belong to a belief in a loving god.
This is why the book I referenced is so important.

Yes I can see God in the OT. In my journey some passages were bothersome and confusing. I began to look at God as a Father. Being a father myself I could relate on how I dealt with my own children. I even know what my kids are going to many times. I have a choice, I can let them learn or put them in a straight jacket. In any case I love them always. Even when they hurt me it only takes them turning back towards me and I embrace them. That is much like God.

I do not have the issue you have with God’s treatment of his children. I can submit to His wisdom, mercy and justice.
 
I am sorry, that is so simplistic that I can’t use it for anything. I can see God if that is what I want to see. Can you see God in the Old Testament? I mean in the retched horror of some of the depictions of God? I can’t believe in that kind of god. Brown or purple doesn’t matter, it’s a very nasty god that doesn’t belong to a belief in a loving god.
Perhaps the answer is simplistic and we are making it too complicated.
 
I am sorry, that is so simplistic that I can’t use it for anything. I can see God if that is what I want to see. Can you see God in the Old Testament? I mean in the retched horror of some of the depictions of God? I can’t believe in that kind of god. Brown or purple doesn’t matter, it’s a very nasty god that doesn’t belong to a belief in a loving god.
Old Testament Jeopardy: I’ll take child sacrifice for 500 shekels.
 
namesake, perhaps StA’s mocking positions are more suitable to you. You think you could accept her positions?
Who’s mocking? If you accept the stories literally, child sacrifice was no laughing matter for Issac or Jephthah’s daughter.
 
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