Confessing to a convict...does it count?

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Hello, JimG!
I am very very sorry, Byt the wording of your prior post, I though tyou were just a polarizing flamer. Thanks for your follow-up post. Changes everything. Please accept my appologies for my curt response.

Yes, you ahve it right. Though I would say it’s not a mateter of Eccelsia Supplet but of a prvision for ingorance (eccleisa supplet being invoked mostly whe there is a lack of completeness in a differnet sense) it’s all the same family. And you’ve got it. 👍

Again, sorry for misinterpeting your repsonse. Te problem on the Inernet is that we read each others’ back and white. We miss the nuances of tone of voice, glint in the eyes, etc. Big hug and blessing for you interest in the matter! THANK YOU for caring!!!:clapping:
 
Fr JLT.

As fellow Comrade of P’RoM 😉
I Thank you your tutorial it is quite clear now. As a convert(still neophyte), Confession is the most unique of all the sacraments.

Peace 🙂
Jermosh,
 
Fr. JLT:
Yes, Br. Rich, you are right, to a point. You are speaking only of ordinary circumstances and the original question dealt with extraordinary circumstances, which I answered clearly and correctly above.

As regarding the ordinary validity of sacraments, it is much more than a valid minister that is ncesessary. It is also valid form and matter that are needed in the celebration of each. (The minister of the Sacrament falls under matter).

In the case of Matrimony, the ordinary sacrament requires two validly baptized Catholics, not just Christians of any ilk. It also requires two witnesses capable of witnessing the exchange of vows and a validly ordained member of the hierarchy. Mixed marraige are extraordinary and require Episcopal permission to be licit (though, yes, not to be valid). When there is disparity of cult, this is also extraordinary and requires Episcopal dispensation for validity. But faculties are very closely bound up into both matter and form, depending on the Sacrament, particularly those of Matrimony and Confirmation.

But again, this is off-topic. The original question had to do with extraordinary circumstances. In the case of a confession where there is the condition of ignorance, the Sacrament is valid. One must divorce one’s self from any notion of the norther European and, by inheritance, the American systems of law to understand both the Gospel and the understand of Law within the Church.

– Fr. L.
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There is a great difference between Canon 965 and 861.
One says “Only a priest…” the other which specifically states the Extraordinary minister. Baptism and Marriage are the only Sacraments under any corcumstances that can be conferred by a lay person. “In the case of Matrimony, the ordinary sacrament requires two validly baptized Catholics, not just Christians of any ilk.” A valid Marriage is always a Sacrament between any validly Baptized male and female. Canon 1055 ~2
 
Br. Rich SFO:
There is a great difference between Canon 965 and 861.
One says “Only a priest…” the other which specifically states the Extraordinary minister. Baptism and Marriage are the only Sacraments under any corcumstances that can be conferred by a lay person. “In the case of Matrimony, the ordinary sacrament requires two validly baptized Catholics, not just Christians of any ilk.” A valid Marriage is always a Sacrament between any validly Baptized male and female. Canon 1055 ~2
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But it does not matter if it was real or not. I made my best effort for confession and my soul is no longer stained by my sins. What else is there in confession that is greater then that?
 
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Jermosh:
But it does not matter if it was real or not. I made my best effort for confession and my soul is no longer stained by my sins. What else is there in confession that is greater then that?
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That is correct if you did not know this person was not a priest your sins would not be held against you as long as you remained unaware that this person was not a priest. The guilt of the sin is removed by God’s grace acting outside the Sacrament, because no Sacrament took place.

However your second question is also important.

“What else is there in confession that is greater then that?”

Receiving forgiveness of sins is important but we also receive Sacramental Grace from the reception of the Sacraments proportional to our disposition to receive it. In this case since no Sacrament takes place, no Sacramental Grace is received.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Receiving forgiveness of sins is important but we also receive Sacramental Grace from the reception of the Sacraments proportional to our disposition to receive it. In this case since no Sacrament takes place, no Sacramental Grace is received.
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Forgiviness is one of the greatest gifts that there is. If that is not a Grace then what is?
 
I think this discussion revolves around the difference between forgiveness and absolution.

as far as the convict, with the way things are going a lot more priests are becoming convicts, so I assume they would be able to hear confessions (if they have faculties in prison).

I also think a lot of us watch way too much TV.
 
That was the most ignorant statement I could have imagined in this discussion, not to mention cheap and ridiculous.

Likewise, God does not forgive, He remits. The Sacrament is not one of forgiveness but of remission. If the Sacrament is valid, absolution, which is tantamount to remission and much more, and not forgiveness, is granted, eternally.

– Fr. L.
 
“That” is also the funniest comment in this discussion, is not so ridiculous, and the reality it reflects should be taken as a source of motivation for all of us to not repeat the crimes and sins of priests, which have certainly taken place.

Fr., recalling passages from Scripture, I recall more instances of the word “forgiveness” than “remission” when speaking of this act of God. (However, perhaps the Greek could be translated either way…but if that is true, what’s the difference between the two English words?) Also, the formula of absolution says “forgiveness of sins”…

At any rate, I’m not sure of the distinction you are trying to make or how it relates to previous posts. Could you help me out?
 
Dear Br. Dan,
To be so flippant about one of the most painful things facing our Church int he USA and in other countries today is nothing less that wicked, especially when the ordained celibate priesthood is doing light-years better than other lifestyles (married, single) in terms of everything from attrition (divorce), infidelity, suicide and yes, even sexual abuse.

The word “remission” is what appears most everywhere, in fact. Unfortuantely, if one is limited to English, he must be mindful that he is dealign with glossings, errors, etc. The Sacrament of Penance’s form for absolution clearly states “in remissionem peccatorum” as does the Credo.

There is a vast difference between forgiveness and remission. Forgiveness is something earth-bound, something we can do with one another. It means pretty much the agreement to let the past be the past and overlook some problem or difference. Since we are finite and live in time and space, that is the extent to which we can deal with wrongdoings.

However, God does not dwell in time and space but in the eternal present. Whatever infraction against Him that was perpetrated is there, no matter how long ago it was done. He and only HE can pierce time and space and REMIT sins, which is to literally to remove them. They did not happen in His eyes. To remit is to can cancel out. When you receive a bill for $100.00 and it says, “Please remit payment to. . .” and you send $100.00, the debt goes to zero. That payment, after being remitted, no longer exists. Youc annot be re-charged for it at a later date because someone arbitrarily think you should do, etc.

Many priests, myself included, refuse to use the Absolution prayer in English because of this enormous difficulty in it’s adaptation (it’s truly not a translation at all). Other languages or the original Latin state the case much more clearly.

– Fr. L.
 
Father, thank you for the correction and I apologize if my flippant remark was uncalled for and offensive. Idid not mean to be flippant about the sad failings of a few priests, but about the deliberate absurdity of the original posting.

I do thank you very much for the discussion of forgiveness and remission, and would be grateful for direction for more reading on this distinctions, because in 20 years of catechising children for first confession I have never encountered it in any of the resources I have been given. Although, as I said, I have been instructed on difference between forgiveness and absolution. It is critical that I learn this properly since I instruct others.

As I understand it, my sin is forgiven the moment I do it, but absolved only in sacramental confession. Would it be correct to say remission of sins is what occurs, the effect, and absolution is the matter and form of the sacrament? If so, I understand your concern about the wording in the sacramentary. I have seen other threads on the different wordings available for absolution in the revised rite, as well as misunderstanding about the 3 forms of the rite.

We purchased some pamphlets from the USCCB for lent last year on the sacrament, and my pastor would not allow us to use them for instructing teens and parents without amendments and clarifications. It is sad when we cannot depend on materials prepared under the direction of our bishops to be reliable.
 
Dear Puzzle,

Thank you so much for your posting and for your clarification. It is very much appreciated. Please remember that when a priest is around, such comments go straight to the heart. The pain that the priests are enduring is often overlooked and definitely unspoken, as we should remain suffering in silent. Priests are brothers to one another, whther they know each other or not. So any poor treatment, flippancy, joking, etc, is painful beyond explanation. It’s along the lines of someone making fun of your mother. But we have to remember, too, that while those are my brothers, they are your fathers. Our enemies and, indeed, the Enemy himself want us to be broken and divided by all of this. But we must not become that way. AS truly loving family memebers, we must suffer together or we will never heal together.

I would liken the difference between forgiveness and remission something like the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Forgiveness was the only thing possible in the Old Testament. The sprinkling of the lamb’s blood, etc, (The Old Testament Sacraments as such things are called) were not effective in actually cancelling out, taking away sin. It was not until the blood of the lamb became the Blood of the Lamb of the God-Man Himself that sin was overcome. Over and over in Scrpiture, it says that sin and death no longer have a choke-hold on us, they no longer have power over us. That is due to the unleashed power of the remission of our sins, rather than the more earthbound and superficial forgiveness known until the Paschal Mystery took place. And this alone is fodder for al lifetime of meditation, non-stop tears of rejoicing, and for our eyes to bug out and our heads to pop open due to the very awesomeness of the concept, let alone the fact that the very reality is available to us. :-)))))) REJOICE! WE’re Christians now. 🙂

Again., thank you very very much for your posting. If you are instructing, I’m adding you specially to my prayers, especially for a daily (hourly? momentarily?) outpouring of the 7-fold Gifts of the Holy Spirit upon you. AMong them, I would say Fortitude is just as necessary as Wisdom. 🙂 DOn’t forget, you and I are only two links in a very very long chain. The seeds we plant may not be for us to nurture. The souls we nurture may not be for us to see come to fruition. There are other links along the way to whom God may have these events planned.

May I also suggest that anotehr kind of spirit may be very helpful, the distilled kind of spirit. :-)) Keeping the Family Sized bottle of Jack Daniels in your lower desk drawer (and a straw, of course) can be very helpful when it comes to instructing people of any age. :-)))

– Fr. L.
 
thank you for the instruction, prayers and advice. I keep my JD in the freezer, for medicinal purposes only. I have another question about a topic on this thread that got lost up there someplace. there is a national shrine here that has several Masses a day, confession before each Mass in several languages. Priests are here from all over the world since the shrine was founded by a missionary order. There is always supposed to be one spanish-speaking one English-speaking priest available. I often stop here when I come for diocesan meetings for adoration and confession, but often the only priest speaks a language I don’t understand (last time it was Catalan, before that Portuguese, they had no English, but recited absolution prayer in Latin). Did I receive a valid sacrament?
 
Dear Fr. JLT,

I don’t think my understanding of “forgiveness” is quite the way you described it. The way i see it is that it is basically everything you said “remission” is…and think that authentic forgiveness is not earthly but is divine. (Isn’t there some cliche about that?) Anyway, I don’t know if i am unusual in my understanding or not. I’m all for a proper understanding of the Mercy of God (to the extent that it is humanly possible) so keep up your work of trying to explain it.

As to the remark (which does reflect reality and probably was not intended to be simply humorous or flippant) made earlier–to me, the most painful part of being in the Church today is not the abuse/criminal behavior of some priests but, basically, the lack of faith, hope and love. Just as an example: before any of the abuse became so well known, we already had 35% Mass attendance and widespread carelessness among priests and laity alike. The Catholic faith is useless in so many people’s minds…all over the world. That is tragic and has resulted not from sexual abuse but from a serious lack of “fire” and passion on the part of priests and leaders in the Church: we have given in to the temptation of wanting to be like everyone else. Well, now that Catholics are basically like the general population, why bother stay in the Church?

I am far from being willing to say that just because 98% of priests are not abusers that means that 98% of priests are good priests. Or, such-and-such % of laity aren’t criminals, therefore they are good Catholics. Our standards can’t be that low.

Anyway, sexual abuse/criminal behavior is an extreme symptom of a previous malady (loss of the Faith)…not the cause. That’s my take on it, anyway. I could say more but this is not the topic of this thread…
 
My response has nothing to do with what one or another “understands” about it. It is a matter of definition. If you agree/disagree, like/dislike it makes no impact on the definition whatsoever.

Regarding the other, off topic matter, now we’ve gone from a vicious statement on the priests to a generalization of the lack of faith in the Church.

At first, if the priests based their faith on the faith of their congregations, there would be no priests. Hear confessions for 5 minutes and you’d understand what I mean. Priests were singled out by the mass media because of their fear of Catholicism and it’s moral influence and force. Unfortunatley, many have jumped on that bandwagon and have allowed it to color thier world. For decades, priests were made the “Scapegoat of holiness.” Many called that “putting priests on a pedastle.” I call it reverse scapegoating . . Since I am a sinner, you need to be sinless to justify me. It’s being put into a cage, pidgeonholed and put under a mmicroscope. All utterly inhuman and inhumane. Now, the reverse is the mentality. Those outide the church can’t harm us in any real or lasting way, but those within certainly can. Want to talk about a lack of faith, and lack of vocations? It doesnt’ help when Catholics sit at home and discuss how awful the priests are in front of their children or decide to become Unitarians because a priest 7 states away “fell from grace.”

There is about as much support for the priesthood inthe USA is there is for the home culturing of maggots. The “domestic church” is where it begins and ends. All the priesthood can do is guide, support and augment that.

– Fr. L.
 
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