Confession: D&D

[StTommyMore]

I disbelieve.

Your argument presented is not based on facts regarding the game, and betray a fundamental ignorance of the game which is precisely identical to the criticisms of those “lunatic passing judgment with no experience”. I have played the game for 30 years and am/have been DM for 8 of those years (that is, I am continuing to DM at this time). I stand by my previous post.

I started playing using “the red box” circa 1985. I played Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 1st edition from '85-'88. During this same time I also played Star Frontiers (TSR), CyberSpace (ICE), and Marvel Super Heroes (TSR). Starting in '88, I played AD&D 2nd edition, and also moved into Ninjas and Superspies, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles , and Rifts (all Palladium). About '95 or so I played Werewolf: the Apocalypse (White Wolf). I have also played Deadlands (Pinnacle), DC Heroes (Mayfair), Blood of Heroes (Pulsar), GURPS (Steve Jackson) and Cyberpunk 2020 (R. Talsorian). There have been others as well but this hits the high points, without getting into miniatures games and CCGs. I know about gaming, I have been a gamer, and I know a lot of gamers personally. I would definitely avoid any “game” that invokes the names of demons as part of “play.”

 

[Adeodatus]

I disbelieve.

OK, roll a d20.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

That being said–no, D&D is not sinful. Its just a fun activity to pass the time.

But we are not here to “pass the time” until we are judged. Sloth is not just doing nothing but it is not doing what we should, in the Light of Christ. It is this Light shone on what we do, what we could do or must not do at any particular time that we must, with our reason, determine the ultimate value.

Some can, as recreation and relaxation, unwind with a game. It is our reason that must make the determination as to the value of vacation versus vocation and we, owing to concupiscence, are orientated toward the former.

If the game is not inherently sinful, then is our playing it worthy of our redemption by Christ? This is what we must answer truthfully to ourselves because Jesus will ask this of us. If one does not know the answer then more study is needed, study that could be neglected by time spent in games.

 

[JHow]

…If the game is not inherently sinful, then is our playing it worthy of our redemption by Christ? This is what we must answer truthfully to ourselves because Jesus will ask this of us. If one does not know the answer then more study is needed, study that could be neglected by time spent in games.

Would you apply this to the ladies at the bingo hall?

 

[Melissa]

OK, roll a d20.

/rolls … woohoo! a natural 20 (and since I play by 2nd ed. rules, that’s a success)

A friend of mine (who has paid me the highest honor of describing my DM style as “Gygaxian”) played once at the table with a DM who was none other than Gygax himself.

St.TommyMore–you do realize that there’s no invocation of demons as part of the game? (And that 2nd ed wasn’t published until '89, which makes it rather difficult to believe that you switched editions in '88.)

 

[StTommyMore]

/rolls … woohoo! a natural 20 (and since I play by 2nd ed. rules, that’s a success)

A friend of mine (who has paid me the highest honor of describing my DM style as “Gygaxian”) played once at the table with a DM who was none other than Gygax himself.

St.TommyMore–you do realize that there’s no invocation of demons as part of the game? (And that 2nd ed wasn’t published until '89, which makes it rather difficult to believe that you switched editions in '88.)

Forgive me for not haveing a photographic memory on exact publication date. Mea culpa. While there are no formal invocations, the game is littered with the names of actual demons and heathen gods.

 

[Spirithound]

But weren’t orcs somehow created by evil sorcery? I don’t have extensive knowledge of LOTR, but didn’t Saruman cook them up or something? The characters in LOTR seem pretty blithe about mowing them down.

Their method of birth is irrelevant. Even clones (would) have souls. Of course, then one would have to apply the Just War doctrine…

 

[Spirithound]

If the game is not inherently sinful, then is our playing it worthy of our redemption by Christ?

What about checkers?

 

[JHow]

Forgive me for not haveing a photographic memory on exact publication date. Mea culpa. While there are no formal invocations, the game is littered with the names of actual demons and heathen gods.

I get what your driving at. I have to say, I do remember my mother commenting (negatively, many years ago) on one of the D&D books I had which had a pen and ink-style drawing of a semi-clad woman lying on a bench or table (altar?). She did not think much of that, I can tell you. Another larger book had a picture of a big orange devil-horned statue (idol?) or somesuch on the cover. Not exactly the thing you would want to bring with you to your “Young Life” meeting - let’s just leave it at that.

 

[JHow]

Their method of birth is irrelevant. Even clones (would) have souls. Of course, then one would have to apply the Just War doctrine…

We might have to start a different thread here: ** Would / Do Orcs have souls, if / since they were / are real?**

And of course, the next question would be about the Balrog, is it okay to kill them too?

 

[Melissa]

Forgive me for not haveing a photographic memory on exact publication date. Mea culpa. While there are no formal invocations, the game is littered with the names of actual demons and heathen gods.

It’s not really a matter of “photographic memory on exact publication date” as it is a sense that … well, I made my saving roll. That’s all.

There are no formal nor informal invocations. The game can be played without ever once referencing the names of any “actual demons and heathen gods” (most of those I have played with use the Greyhawk or the FR pantheons, my game uses deities of my own creation), nor can it be denied that the “deities” of the game are nothing more than a device of the game mechanics and are not worshipped by the players (and that the character’s worship is generally handled in a pretty mechanical fashion rather than RPing whatever would constitute worship of a fictional deity).

@JHow … and let’s also not forget “if a creature is evil by its very nature, is it evil to slay said creature?” After all, orcs are lawful evil.

 

[StTommyMore]

It’s not really a matter of “photographic memory on exact publication date” as it is a sense that … well, I made my saving roll. That’s all.

There are no formal nor informal invocations. The game can be played without ever once referencing the names of any “actual demons and heathen gods” (most of those I have played with use the Greyhawk or the FR pantheons, my game uses deities of my own creation), nor can it be denied that the “deities” of the game are nothing more than a device of the game mechanics and are not worshipped by the players (and that the character’s worship is generally handled in a pretty mechanical fashion rather than RPing whatever would constitute worship of a fictional deity).

@JHow … and let’s also not forget “if a creature is evil by its very nature, is it evil to slay said creature?” After all, orcs are lawful evil.

Actually Orcs are “usually Chaotic evil” according to 3.5 rules. KOS is not acceptable. One is only evil if committing evil acts.

 

[Domnall]

Actually Orcs are “usually Chaotic evil” according to 3.5 rules.

Wait, you mean the only current rules?

Being a DM and player myself…I can tell how the players how, even in a serious campaign, do not take the magic/cult aspect seriously.

For example, our cleric says for everyone to take a candle and hold it while he did an incantation. Afterwards, another character says “So, do those do anything.” To which he responded in character “No, they’re just for show.” A good laugh was had by all.

Players in even serious games can, and do, separate reality from fantasy.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Forgive me for not haveing a photographic memory on exact publication date. Mea culpa. While there are no formal invocations, the game is littered with the names of actual demons and heathen gods.

Names are naught but words. And what are words? They’re nothing but whatever meaning you connect to them. That isn’t to say the meaning should be the same for everyone. The signifier isn’t always bound to the signified.

If you have such an aversion to demons and heathen gods, I suggest that you and your children (if you have any) avoid any contact with the study of mythology and folklore. It’s the original source of all fantasy lore after all, not just DnD. Might I also suggest that you make an entirely different calendar for yourself (or your family) since many of the names of months and days are derived from pagan gods. (Thursday-Thor, June-Juno).

 

[Aramis]

Wait, you mean the only current rules?

Being a DM and player myself…I can tell how the players how, even in a serious campaign, do not take the magic/cult aspect seriously.

For example, our cleric says for everyone to take a candle and hold it while he did an incantation. Afterwards, another character says “So, do those do anything.” To which he responded in character “No, they’re just for show.” A good laugh was had by all.

Players in even serious games can, and do, separate reality from fantasy.

Current rules are “4th Edition Essentials”

3.5 was deprecated 2 years ago.

And even the stauchly pagan players of D&D laugh about the Vancian Magic system. The only people I know who take it seriously fall into a few categories: zealous religious extremists (many of whom go so far as to be hypocrites), delusional individuals, the willfully ignorant, and children of one of those groups.

Telling stories is part of the human experience. A part that modern society tends to suppress. Roleplaying games bring that old fashioned campfire storytelling back, in a collaborative process.

 

[StTommyMore]

Names are naught but words. And what are words? They’re nothing but whatever meaning you connect to them. That isn’t to say the meaning should be the same for everyone. The signifier isn’t always bound to the signified.

If you have such an aversion to demons and heathen gods, I suggest that you and your children (if you have any) avoid any contact with the study of mythology and folklore. It’s the original source of all fantasy lore after all, not just DnD. Might I also suggest that you make an entirely different calendar for yourself (or your family) since many of the names of months and days are derived from pagan gods. (Thursday-Thor, June-Juno).

Names are much more than words. Names have power. If names are “mere words” then why the 2nd commandment?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Indeed. What the 2nd commandment has to do on the subject of names and semantics is beyond me.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Well when it comes to RPGs, my preferences lean more towards Japanese franchises like Final Fantasy, Golden Sun, Tales of, and Atelier Iris. As far as gods, demons, and magic go in those games, there’s not really much worship of anything at all.

For instance, characters who are mages are generally bookish smart-alecks who utilize what is actually just a natural ability in that fictional universe. They learn spells in a manner that is no different from learning martial arts moves. Magic is treated as a sort of counterpart to the advanced robotics/physics of science fiction.

Even healing and buff spells (spells I usually associate with clerics, acolytes and other ‘religious’ job classes) have no affiliation. Finally, in the cases of games that do have such classes, the religion is actually so obscure, it’s hard to take seriously.

 

[StTommyMore]

The FIRST comamndment is the command agians idolatry, the second is “Do not take the name of the LORD you God in vain.” This tells me the name itself has power.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The FIRST comamndment is the command agians idolatry, the second is “Do not take the name of the LORD you God in vain.” This tells me the name itself has power.

Uh, no it doesn’t. Names are words. Words are nothing but symbols/sounds strung together. What gives a word its value is the meaning we attach to the word. You know that old verse about not all those who say “Lord, Lord” shall be saved and whatnot? It shows that even a name can be empty.

However, that doesn’t mean the meaning is inevitably attached to the symbols/sounds.