'Confession' of child abuse no longer secret?

[rightbehind]

fkpl:

This concerns the hypothetical dilemma of a priest who regularly hears the confession of a man who seeks absolution for the repeated rape of his 7 year old daughter. Either the penitent tells the priest he can’t stop and will probably do it again or it’s the inescapable inference because the priest hears the same penitent confess the same sin (crime) repeatedly.

Here’s my take:

1. The hypothetical presumes the priest knows who the penitent is. This may or not be the case, but I’ll assume the priest knows him.
2. The priest can alert family members or the police on an anonymous basis that the child may be a victim of abuse without being more specific than that. It’s a question of a general warning without naming the penitent, but which should suffice to steer the appropriate people in the right direction.

So in other words from number 3- said hypothetical priest receives confession in which a man is cheating on his wife. Without disclosing the penitent’s identity, said priest goes to parish potluck and says I have info from the confessional that one of you wives has an unfaithful husband. And he can say one of you gambles the family fortune. And one of you robbed the liquor store last week and killed the store owner. Now say, this parish is made up like mine- 450 people. Get real.

 

[Ortho]

rightbehind:

Perhaps you are confusing an institution which exists for the worship of God with a social services agency. The Church has several social services agencies- Catholic Charities for instance. It is not the role of the Church proper to police people.

One does not have to be a social services agency to report child abuse. We all can do it.

 

[Ortho]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: The Church is not all about “saving its image” haven’t you read a single word posted here?

The Church pays great attention to saving its image. Most organizations do. That’s what the bishops were doing when they continued to allow priests who were sex abusers to have access to kids. Cover-up was the policy. That’s why they made settlements with gag orders attached.

In the confession situation, the Church wants to maintain an image with the faithful that one of their rituals guarantees confidentiality. To maintain that image, folks are willing to let a 7-year-old girl be raped.

 

[Nohome]

Rosalinda:

Nohome, your link was outdated and failed to open the video.

O.K., you may read the transcript here:

edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0107/25/tl.00.html

 

[Ortho]

Rosalinda:

Nohome, your link was outdated and failed to open the video.

Originally posted by Ortho.

Ortho, read this quote from St. John Chrysostom because you don’t understand what the power of binding and loosing means. The Church cannot change this sacrament as it was originally instituted by Christ and handed down by the apostles; therefore, it is not something concocted or created by men. The seal of confession is not a minor exterior detail which can be altered in different cultures like giving the penitent the option to kneel or sit down when he confesses. Without the seal it would no longer be a valid sacrament and the faithful aren’t stupid automans who are going to pop into state run traps to confess their most private, shameful failings and wrongdoings. China has state run Catholic Churches and there are millions of underground Chinese Catholics. Is that your vision for America?

I asked the question bevause of the following statenment from SirKnight:

“Jesus gave absolute authority to His church saying that whatever they bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever they loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven. Jesus didn’t place any restrictions on this authority saying that it only applies to this or that. The authority was absolute and it was given to the church by God, Himself…”

So, if the Church has such absolute power to bind, and Jesus did not restrict it, I would thing it has absolute power to change the rule.

Was there ever a time in Church history when the sacrament involved public confession?

 

[Ortho]

Timidity:

If we can not change the sacrament, then we should all be confessing publically in church. IIRC, private confessions were invented by Irish monks in the 6th Century.

IIf that is the case, then the confidentiality aspect is not necessry for tthe sacrament.

 

[Ortho]

rightbehind:

So in other words from number 3- said hypothetical priest receives confession in which a man is cheating on his wife. Without disclosing the penitent’s identity, said priest goes to parish potluck and says I have info from the confessional that one of you wives has an unfaithful husband. And he can say one of you gambles the family fortune. And one of you robbed the liquor store last week and killed the store owner. Now say, this parish is made up like mine- 450 people. Get real.

Rape of a 7-year-old girl is very real.

 

[rightbehind]

Ortho:

Rape of a 7-year-old girl is very real.

One does not attend any Church- whether it be a Jewish synagogue, an Islamic Mosque, a Christian Church or a Catholic Mass in order to “save” 7 year old girls from rape. That is not the proper purpose of Church. Saving 7 year old girls from rape is the proper act of a social services agency, one that can be exercised with or without a belief of God. It is no more appropriate to use the Confessional to police the actions of society than it is to use the Eucharist to direct politics- i.e. ex communicating pro choice politicians. Neither the confessional nor the Eucharist may be used appropriately as weapons. If anyone proposes either concept as right and true to the worship of God, he is wrong.

 

[Ortho]

rightbehind:

One does not attend any Church- whether it be a Jewish synagogue, an Islamic Mosque, a Christian Church or a Catholic Mass in order to “save” 7 year old girls from rape. That is not the proper purpose of Church. Saving 7 year old girls from rape is the proper act of a social services agency, one that can be exercised with or without a belief of God. It is no more appropriate to use the Confessional to police the actions of society than it is to use the Eucharist to direct politics- i.e. ex communicating pro choice politicians. Neither the confessional nor the Eucharist may be used appropriately as weapons. If anyone proposes either concept as right and true to the worship of God, he is wrong.

Is one excused from saving a 7-year-old girl from rape because they attend church, mosque, or synagogue?

Didn’t Jesus say something about millstones?

 

[rightbehind]

Ortho:

Is one excused from saving a 7-year-old girl from rape because they attend church, mosque, or synagogue?

Didn’t Jesus say something about millstones?

Are you being deliberately frivolous? No one said that. On the other hand, is society’s inability to police itself or uphold moral standards an excuse for desecrating Church sacraments?

 

[Ortho]

rightbehind:

Are you being deliberately frivolous? No one said that. On the other hand, is society’s inability to police itself or uphold moral standards an excuse for desecrating Church sacraments?

Frivolous? Never underestimate the power of unbridled frivolity. Does wonders for the soul.

Society’s difficulties in upholding moral order indicate we all should lend a hand, especially when faced with an opportunity to save 7-year-old girls from rape. Maybe a sermon on that millstone would help?

 

[mikew262]

Maranatha:

Well that may be the current law but after the atheists finish with the pledge I think they’ll go after this one. I’m not sure a “strict constructionist” could find private confessionals a right in the constitution especially if the right to privacy is curtailed. Atheists would find this right as a violation of the separation of church and state.

Sadly, you are probably right.

 

[rightbehind]

Ortho:

Frivolous? Never underestimate the power of unbridled frivolity. Does wonders for the soul.

Society’s difficulties in upholding moral order indicate we all should lend a hand, especially when faced with an opportunity to save 7-year-old girls from rape. Maybe a sermon on that millstone would help?

Feeling a vocation to the priesthood Ortho? Be my guest. be the first one on your block to become a priest so that you may police socity with the Confessional. Hey, stranger things have happened in the Church. Go for it, man. Try the Jesuits maybe.

 

[Ortho]

rightbehind:

Feeling a vocation to the priesthood Ortho? Be my guest. be the first one on your block to become a priest so that you may police socity with the Confessional. Hey, stranger things have happened in the Church. Go for it, man. Try the Jesuits maybe.

I would prefer to found my own order. Perhaps the Paracletes of Kaborka?

A calling for men and women unafraid to practice outside the church walls that which is preached inside those walls.

Love offerings are also welcome. VISA and MasterCard accepted.

 

[rightbehind]

Ortho:

I would prefer to found my own order. Perhaps the Paracletes of Kaborka?

A calling for men and women unafraid to practice outside the church walls that which is preached inside those walls.

Love offerings are also welcome. VISA and MasterCard accepted.

Don’t think you can learn the secrets of the confessional that way Ortho. If you truly want to be able to police society through the RCC Confessional, you will have to be a RCC priest and go renegade. Might be an exciting book. You could make a million that way, Forget the Visa card donors.

 

[Ortho]

rightbehind:

Don’t think you can learn the secrets of the confessional that way Ortho. If you truly want to be able to police society through the RCC Confessional, you will have to be a RCC priest and go renegade. Might be an exciting book. You could make a million that way, Forget the Visa card donors.

Actually, I think society might want to police the Church a bit better. I think Greeley has a book on that.

Religion never forgets VISA.

 

[rightbehind]

Ortho:

Actually, I think society might want to police the Church a bit better. I think Greeley has a book on that.

Religion never forgets VISA.

Wouldn’t know. I’ve avoided reading Greeley for 40 years now.Along with Malachi Martin. But I thoroughly enjoyed that tv series with Tom Bosley as a priest detective. And there is a wonderful book, I’ll look it up for you, on the gun smuggling Carmelite priests in New York during Sinn Fein. Great rationalizations in there. But that was before the advent of VISA. The gun toting O.Carm priests only accepted cash.

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally posted by Ortho

So, if the Church has such absolute power to bind, and Jesus did not restrict it, I would thing it has absolute power to change the rule.

Scripture needs to be read in context. The context of the original passage pertains to sin. Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church have always understood this power given to the apostles by Jesus pertained to either forgiving sin or choosing not to. You can’t cavalierly throw your own private interpretation unto clear directives left by Jesus to undo two thousand years of sacred tradition because it suits your purposes.

You may need to do homework first with some time given to actually prayerfully reading the bible in one hand with a Catechism of the Catholic Church in the other before you decide to destroy “not a ritual” as you have suggested but a gift left to mankind by a loving God. The Mercy of God and His absolution: for all the sins of your life through the ministry of a priest is a treasure of graces you may someday desire yourself.

Approach this sacrament with awe and reverence. A doctor may have the power to heal a body which will survive for a few more years but a priest has the power to heal a soul for all eternity. If you perceive the Catholic Church as such a big problem that it mandates state intervention, which would reduce America to a police-state, at least take the time to know your enemy more than just superficially.

What has been proposed is not a mere slight policy adjustment but the very destruction of a sacrament. It would contravene a basic ethical principle: “the end never justifies the means.” While your intention to prevent harm to a seven year old is good the greater harm it would do in denying a sacrament to millions of American Catholics would be an incalculable evil. Fr. Leo’s post suggested as much.

 

[Ortho]

Rosalinda:

Originally posted by Ortho

Scripture needs to be read in context. The context of the original passage pertains to sin. Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church have always understood this power given to the apostles by Jesus pertained to either forgiving sin or choosing not to. You can’t cavalierly throw your own private interpretation unto clear directives left by Jesus to undo two thousand years of sacred tradition because it suits your purposes.

You may need to do homework first with some time given to actually prayerfully reading the bible in one hand with a Catechism of the Catholic Church in the other before you decide to destroy “not a ritual” as you have suggested but a gift left to mankind by a loving God. The Mercy of God and His absolution: for all the sins of your life through the ministry of a priest is a treasure of graces you may someday desire yourself.

Approach this sacrament with awe and reverence. A doctor may have the power to heal a body which will survive for a few more years but a priest has the power to heal a soul for all eternity. If you perceive the Catholic Church as such a big problem that it mandates state intervention, which would reduce America to a police-state, at least take the time to know your enemy more than just superficially.

What has been proposed is not a mere slight policy adjustment but the very destruction of a sacrament. It would contravene a basic ethical principle: “the end never justifies the means.” While your intention to prevent harm to a seven year old is good the greater harm it would do in denying a sacrament to millions of American Catholics would be an incalculable evil. Fr. Leo’s post suggested as much.

What was the clear directive from Jesus on 1) privacy of confession, and 2) subsequent absolute confidentiality?

I am somewhat surprised that stopping the rape of a 7-year-old girl would deny a sacrament to millions of Americans. I suspect they would stand up and cheer.

Note the state has intervened in the priest sex abuse fiasco. I haven’t noticed the police state.

 

[fkpl]

rightbehind:

So in other words from number 3- said hypothetical priest receives confession in which a man is cheating on his wife. Without disclosing the penitent’s identity, said priest goes to parish potluck and says I have info from the confessional that one of you wives has an unfaithful husband. And he can say one of you gambles the family fortune. And one of you robbed the liquor store last week and killed the store owner. Now say, this parish is made up like mine- 450 people. Get real.

Your examples are irrelevant to the situation I discussed: violent crime against a helpless child. Marital infidelity, gambling, etc. and a whole host of other sins do not present the moral imperative of that discussed in my hypothetical.

Think about it some more and maybe it will come to you.