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Janet1983
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That still does not answer the question why this should be the only way. I ask for forgiveness when I pray. I examine myself and I confess my sins to the Lord, approaching Him directly.
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Jerry_Parker
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Rinnie,
The “freedom of the Christian man” is a precious thing, not to be sacrificed on the false altar of moral scrupulosity!
Pax, Jerry Parker
**You wrote: ** *Jerry, you are who the Pope was talking about when he said OPEN UP THE WINDOWS AND LET THE FRESH AIR IN. You are such a asset to the faith! *
Why, thank you very much, Rinnie, for such a kind commendation (which I am sure that I do not really deserve, but thanks a lot, anyway!). Although I have reservations about the Second Vatican Council, its call for letting some fresh air into the erstwhile too suffocatingly stuffy confines of the confessional and of the theologians’ studies (among other ecclesiastical places) was very much needed. (I still feel, though, that the unguardedly positive attitude of the council’s bishops and two Popes about humanity having “matured” and human culture having attained a new level of excellence, was ill-advised, to say the least!) It simply is impossible to live successfully and without guilt spasms by the kind of moral stiffness and unrealistic admonitions (let’s face what it was – “uptightness”!) that festered unhealthily from the Council of Trent onwards through the First Vatican Council and up to past mid-20th century.The “freedom of the Christian man” is a precious thing, not to be sacrificed on the false altar of moral scrupulosity!
Pax, Jerry Parker
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JacobG
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The point of the condemned man story is that he does not get probation but a full pardon by the Governor. This is what the Bible teaches. In 1 John 1:9 it says: If we confess our sins, he (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God cleanses us as soon as we confess. Nothing is ever said about an afterlife cleansing or purification.Hi Jacob. Glad you came.Okay now lets adress the govenor question. You are saying if someone if pardoned must he do temporal punishment. I sure hope so. I would hope that if the governor did pardon someone there would be some penance for the sins the person commited. If not what would stop that person from doing them again.
Does a person who is let out of prison not have probation. Does he not have to report to a probation officer to make sure they are going to stay on the right track. Or does the governor say hey take off kill again. OR does he try to reform this person.
Now back to confession. First of all you have to understand what it is. You first must pray and meditate on your sin LONG before you hit the Confessional. You tell God that you are sorry you pray and ask him to forgive you, You tell him how sorry you are. Now you go to the Priest. The Priest is just standing in for God with the Power God gave him. You tell the Priest you sin, after already praying and telling God how sorry you are. The Priest says you are forgiven. Now we have Probation. Lets say you have a addiction to porn. He may say you must stay off of the computer, or only pay bills etc if you must. Now every time you find that you want to hit the porn network he may say go in your room and say maybe the rosary, whatever prayers he tells you. But it is to keep you in a state of grace. Do you see what I mean. A Priest no only forgives you a sin, he shows you ways to sin no more. He also prays with you in the Box
But according to RC theology, if a sinner confesses to a priest, the priest absolves him. But it isn’t complete forgiveness. The point is, only God can completely forgive sins. This is why we must go straight to God when we lapses into sin.
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JacobG
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rinnie,Also Jacob what is true penance. Easy its to quit doing the sin, is it not? I mean if you go in and confess your sin and are forgiven is not the penance (besides praying to quit doing the sin)? What do you think the prayers are for Jacob. Its for help from God to help you. And is it not Penance (HARD) to quit this sin. Thats why the true penance is after the confession not before.
Its easy to regret, and be sorry. But its harder to repent and quit the sin. And so you do an indulgance what does that really do. Simple it takes time away from you to sin, because you do good works instead. Whats wrong with that?
Say Father says once a week you must help a old person with work, and then you must pray. When you are helping that old person you are thinking about what? Your sin right? How could you not. Then when you pray after you are asking for God to help you. Again time spent on getting back into the Grace of God. Less time left to sin.
Often it is not possible to just quit sinning. No one can keep all of the 10 Commandments all the time. You break one, you’ve broken them all. Whether you take a pencil that doesn’t belong to you, or you look at someone with lustful thoughts, you are still guilty of sin. The apostle Paul said he was doing the things he should not be doing, and the very things he knew he should do, he wasn’t doing! He called himself a wretched man because he saw the hopelessness of it. If you are relying on your own ability to quit sinning, it will never happen. That’s why the Bible says where sin abounds, more grace abounds. This is not a license to sin, but simply means that God knows our human nature and He pours out his grace when we repent.
But, this is off topic…:tiphat:
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JacobG
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There is only ONE MEDIATOR between God the Father and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). Not one mention is made anywhere in the N.T. of an Apostle ever forgiving someone’s sins.Because Jesus told us to do it that way. When Jesus came down he gave forgiveness and gave the same power to the Priest.
Got a question for you,
John 20:23 Jesus gives his apostles the power to forgive sin.
Now if Jesus gave his Apostles the power to forgive sin, but did not want us to confess our sins to them, why would he give them the power. What was the Purpose?
Concerning John 20:23, Jesus told his disciples that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name. (Luke 24:47)
The apostles destroyed sin with the power of the Gospel through preaching. This was Christ’s instruction to Paul also (Acts 26:16,17.)
In order to be pardoned, the sinner must listen to this preaching and receive Christ as personal Savior and Priest through faith (Acts 3:19, 5:29,15:7-9).
Do you see the common thread here. Preaching is the medium used to bring people to true repentance and saving faith In Jesus Christ alone. The apostles were authorized only to announce the terms of forgiveness, and that upon the basis of God’s previous appointment. Literally, the text suggests: “Those whose sins you forgive, have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive, have not already been forgiven.
This conclusion is confirmed by the fact that the apostles, on the day of Pentecost, in harmony with the Spirit’s guidance, did not personally forgive the sins of anyone; rather, they merely announced the conditions of pardon to which men and women were amenable. To believers who sincerely inquired: “. . .what shall we do?”, Peter responded, "Repent ye, and be immersed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. . . " (Acts 2:37-38). "They then that received his word were immersed. . . ". Thus, upon the basis of this testimony, they received the forgiveness of their sins.
When Stephen preached the Gospel in Acts 7, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Peter preached the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Paul witnessed to King Agrippa in Acts 26, he didn’t offer to forgive the king’s sins. When Peter was dealing with Simon the Sorcerer, he didn’t tell simon to confess his sins to him and he would absolve him. No, Peter told him to go to God.
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rinnie
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Tell me this Jacob, I understand you do not believe that we need this sacrament. But if I sin against you and I ask you for gorgiveness and you forgive me is my sin forgiven. Can you speak for God Jacob and say to me Go in peace your sin is forgiven? Do you have authority to do that?
Here is another question Jacob if I am in sin I cannot receive the sacrament of communion until I am back into the Grace of Christ. I must have absolution, Can you put me back into the graces of God? Now you are telling me yes, the CC, and the teachings of the Apostles tells me NO. Who am I to listen to.
Another question Jacob why did Jesus leave me the Church? If I can just go to him, have him forgive my sin and thats it? Why the Sacrament?
Oh it is not only possible to quit sinning it is demanded of us Jacob. Hard yes impossible no. But see Jacob thats the whole point of confession when we confess our sins we not only get back into the good graces with God we receive additional Grace to be able to quit the sin. That is the whole point. The bible says to ask for forgivenss and reconcile yourself back with the Church.
Tell me this Jacob, I understand you do not believe that we need this sacrament. But if I sin against you and I ask you for gorgiveness and you forgive me is my sin forgiven. Can you speak for God Jacob and say to me Go in peace your sin is forgiven? Do you have authority to do that?
Here is another question Jacob if I am in sin I cannot receive the sacrament of communion until I am back into the Grace of Christ. I must have absolution, Can you put me back into the graces of God? Now you are telling me yes, the CC, and the teachings of the Apostles tells me NO. Who am I to listen to.
Another question Jacob why did Jesus leave me the Church? If I can just go to him, have him forgive my sin and thats it? Why the Sacrament?
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rinnie
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Jesus never said in order to be forgiven from sin we must listen to the gospel. Jesus said in order to be forgiven from sin we must be Baptised, Repent, and confess our sins and quit the sin. Actually you just confirmed my point by giving me the gospel yourself:shrug:
The Apostles never destroyed sin. If they did it would not exist. The APostles have the power to forgive sin not destroy it. I see no scripture for that.
Jesus never said in order to be forgiven from sin we must listen to the gospel. Jesus said in order to be forgiven from sin we must be Baptised, Repent, and confess our sins and quit the sin. Actually you just confirmed my point by giving me the gospel yourself:shrug:
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rinnie
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Now you said Stephen had none of these great powers. Yes he did. Please read act 6. It tells you Stephen was prayed over and they laid hands of the Holy Spirit over him.
In Acts 6:8 is in direct contradiction with what you said. IT says Now Stephen Filled with GRACE and POWER was working GREAT WONDERS and SIGNS among the people.
Now if you want to know what the Power and Grace God gave his Apostles all you have to do is go back to Pentecost and see what Jesus said. What my Father has given me I now give to you. So if you believe those words of Jesus you believe that he had the Power to forgive sins, and then you will agree that if he had the Power to forgive sins, so did Stephen. You must remember healing people was a outward sign of forgiveness of sins was it not? Forgiveness was a inward sign of forgiveness of sins.
If you do not agree with this you must go back to where Jesus was healing and they accused him of doing wrong. Remember what Jesus said whats easier to heal someone or say your sins are forgiven. Healing someone can be Outward or INward. Jesus showed them both.
Father had a retreat Jacob this week, and do you know what he said? He said that its the devil who does not want you to go to confession. He wants to keep you from receiving that Grace from God.
In Acts 6:8 is in direct contradiction with what you said. IT says Now Stephen Filled with GRACE and POWER was working GREAT WONDERS and SIGNS among the people.
Now if you want to know what the Power and Grace God gave his Apostles all you have to do is go back to Pentecost and see what Jesus said. What my Father has given me I now give to you. So if you believe those words of Jesus you believe that he had the Power to forgive sins, and then you will agree that if he had the Power to forgive sins, so did Stephen. You must remember healing people was a outward sign of forgiveness of sins was it not? Forgiveness was a inward sign of forgiveness of sins.
If you do not agree with this you must go back to where Jesus was healing and they accused him of doing wrong. Remember what Jesus said whats easier to heal someone or say your sins are forgiven. Healing someone can be Outward or INward. Jesus showed them both.
Father had a retreat Jacob this week, and do you know what he said? He said that its the devil who does not want you to go to confession. He wants to keep you from receiving that Grace from God.
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rinnie
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Jacob. Also tell me this.
Remember when Mary M met Jesus and being stoned. Why did Jesus not tell her to go to God and confess her sins to God? Why did he make her do a oral confession?
Do you not understand Jacob that Mary M did not feel that she could even Go to God. Do you not understand that she knew what she was and who she was and felt there was no forgiveness for her. It took the SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION. An outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
Do you not think she knew about God before Jesus? But she felt she was damned. That’s what she was told. But it was Jesus who said OUT LOUD, GO AND SIN NO MORE. She had to hear those words from God. 5 words from Jesus changed her life. He forgave her. Now go back to those wonderful words that he gave to the Apostles ALL that my Father has given me I now give to you. Jesus had the power and gave it to the Apostles.
Now back to a state of Grace if I am out of a state of grace how can I in a state of Sin say God forgives me? Where did God give me the Power of the Holy Spirit to speak for him and offer to myself forgiveness of sins? Because the gospel says go to the Church. The gospel says he gave the power to the Apostles not me? Now you asked me why do I have to go to the Priest and not directly to God. Because Jesus gave them the Power to do that for me. Because Jesus left me that sacrament. He had his reasons. But do you not understand that when I go to that Priest I am not going to that Priest at all. That Priest is who has offered up his life BODY and SOUL to Christ to work THRU him. So that Priest is not by-passing God he is letting God work through him. He is letting the Power of the Holy Spirit that was given to him at Holy Orders to flow directly from his soul to mine through God. He is not speaking his words he is speaking Gods words.
Remember when Mary M met Jesus and being stoned. Why did Jesus not tell her to go to God and confess her sins to God? Why did he make her do a oral confession?
Do you not understand Jacob that Mary M did not feel that she could even Go to God. Do you not understand that she knew what she was and who she was and felt there was no forgiveness for her. It took the SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION. An outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
Do you not think she knew about God before Jesus? But she felt she was damned. That’s what she was told. But it was Jesus who said OUT LOUD, GO AND SIN NO MORE. She had to hear those words from God. 5 words from Jesus changed her life. He forgave her. Now go back to those wonderful words that he gave to the Apostles ALL that my Father has given me I now give to you. Jesus had the power and gave it to the Apostles.
Now back to a state of Grace if I am out of a state of grace how can I in a state of Sin say God forgives me? Where did God give me the Power of the Holy Spirit to speak for him and offer to myself forgiveness of sins? Because the gospel says go to the Church. The gospel says he gave the power to the Apostles not me? Now you asked me why do I have to go to the Priest and not directly to God. Because Jesus gave them the Power to do that for me. Because Jesus left me that sacrament. He had his reasons. But do you not understand that when I go to that Priest I am not going to that Priest at all. That Priest is who has offered up his life BODY and SOUL to Christ to work THRU him. So that Priest is not by-passing God he is letting God work through him. He is letting the Power of the Holy Spirit that was given to him at Holy Orders to flow directly from his soul to mine through God. He is not speaking his words he is speaking Gods words.
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rinnie
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Jacob think what you are saying. If I would rely on my own ability to quit sinning why would I even attempt confession. Do you not understand that confession is what give me extra grace to quit sinning. Do you think that when I ask for GRACE thats relying on my own ability?
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Jerry_Parker
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Jacob G,
**You wrote: ** *The point of the condemned man story is that he does not get probation but a full pardon by the Governor. This is what the Bible teaches. In 1 John 1:9 it says: If we confess our sins, he (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God cleanses us as soon as we confess. Nothing is ever said about an afterlife cleansing or purification.
Therefore, your assumption that rejecting Purgatory is “why we must go straight to God when we lapses * into sin” is faulty. Protestant and sectarian groups that practice oral confession before the congregation also would disagree with you. However, nobody, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, whatever, among them, would deny that “only God can completely forgive sins.”!! It is God Who, “cleans(s) us from all unrighteousness” as the Holy Spirit reveals through Sacred Scripture in the passage which you quote. Catholic-minded Christians, whether Roman or Eastern Catholics, Orthodox, or Anglicans, believe this. Whether or not a priest (or a congregation) has a part in oral confession, it still is God Who forgives. Purgatory, whatever the worth or wrongness of that doctrinal paradigm, simply is not inextricably intertwined with Confession.
Pax, Jerry Parker*
**You wrote: ** *The point of the condemned man story is that he does not get probation but a full pardon by the Governor. This is what the Bible teaches. In 1 John 1:9 it says: If we confess our sins, he (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. God cleanses us as soon as we confess. Nothing is ever said about an afterlife cleansing or purification.
But according to R.C. theology, if a sinner confesses to a priest, the priest absolves him. But it isn’t complete forgiveness. The point is, only God can completely forgive sins. This is why we must go straight to God when we lapses into sin. *
Well, Jacob, You do point out the difficulty with the doctrine of Purgatory, but your reasoning, up to that faulty last sentence, is nothing that would bother an Eastern Orthodox believer or priest. The Eastern Orthodox practise auricular confession, as, to varying degrees also do the Lutherans, the Anglicans, and other Christians besides Roman Catholics, who do not believe in Purgatory (apart from the eccentricities of the likes of some “Anglo-Catholics” of what derisively is called “Cypto-Papist” persuasion). These other traditions, of which the Eastern Orthodox is the most significant, have and practise the sacrament of auricular confession despite a rejection of the dogma of Purgatory.Therefore, your assumption that rejecting Purgatory is “why we must go straight to God when we lapses * into sin” is faulty. Protestant and sectarian groups that practice oral confession before the congregation also would disagree with you. However, nobody, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, whatever, among them, would deny that “only God can completely forgive sins.”!! It is God Who, “cleans(s) us from all unrighteousness” as the Holy Spirit reveals through Sacred Scripture in the passage which you quote. Catholic-minded Christians, whether Roman or Eastern Catholics, Orthodox, or Anglicans, believe this. Whether or not a priest (or a congregation) has a part in oral confession, it still is God Who forgives. Purgatory, whatever the worth or wrongness of that doctrinal paradigm, simply is not inextricably intertwined with Confession.
Pax, Jerry Parker*
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JacobG
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Lets be honest here, ok. Can you go through an entire day or week without committing a single sin, whether its in thought or deed? If you are honest you will have to save no. The New Covenant, which we are under is a time of grace, not sacrifices which was Old Testament. We no longer need priests. Jesus Christ is the last priest…the High Priest. He now sits at the Father’s right hand as Mediator and Intercessor. We no longer need men interceding. We have Jesus Christ.
The Scriptures tell us that anyone who sins against God must go to God alone and ask forgiveness. If you blaspheme God for example, no man can tell you you are absolved… go in peace.
Where does the Scriptures teach that Christ gave us a sacramental system? Jesus said of the Last Supper, do this in Remembrance of Me. Remember what? All that he had taught during His earthly mission. He was not referring to His sacrifice on the Cross because he had not yet been crucified.
There’s nothing about the catholic priesthood in the Bible. Nothing about an altar with Christ’s sacrifice being re-presented. Nothing about the apostles ever forgiving any one their sins. Instead, they told sinners to go directly to God.
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rinnie
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You are saying the You never heard Jesus say to Peter what You forgive is forgiven, and what you hold bound is held bound. So you are in what total denial of this scripture or what?
There is nothing about Catholic Priesthood in the Bible? Then where did the Bishop get the laying of hands from. Of course I can show you the teaching.
John 15:16 Jesus chose special men to be his Apostes. Then though the whole gospel for goodness sakes it show’s the Apostles lay hands on other men. What do you think that did this for Jacob? Tell me why do you believe that the Apostles were laying hands and telling the other Disciples to receive the Holy Spirit? Can’t wait to hear this one:shrug:
Jacob you are telling things on what you believe not what Jesus taught. Please show me where in scripture that Jesus said we no longer need Priests. If this is true you can show me the teaching.
You are saying the You never heard Jesus say to Peter what You forgive is forgiven, and what you hold bound is held bound. So you are in what total denial of this scripture or what?
There is nothing about Catholic Priesthood in the Bible? Then where did the Bishop get the laying of hands from. Of course I can show you the teaching.
John 15:16 Jesus chose special men to be his Apostes. Then though the whole gospel for goodness sakes it show’s the Apostles lay hands on other men. What do you think that did this for Jacob? Tell me why do you believe that the Apostles were laying hands and telling the other Disciples to receive the Holy Spirit? Can’t wait to hear this one:shrug:
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rinnie
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Scripture says otherwise. Also what part of scripture do you deny that Jesus was fully Man or that Jesus could forgiven sins then? So are you saying that the Apostles creed that said he was born of the virgin Mary and became man is a Lie. Or that when Jesus said to Mary M go in peace and sin nor more. So which scripture do you deny? Or both?
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rinnie
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No Jacob how about you being honest here. Are you saying that if someone prays for that Grace from God that God cannot grant them that Grace? See I am different from you Jacob I believe what the bible says with GOd all things are possible.
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Jerry_Parker
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Rinnie,
Way to go, dealing patiently with every twist of Jacob’s sectarian line of assault. It’s a dirty job, but some Catholic has to do it!
Thanks for taking up his gauntlet every time that he tosses it down to your feet.
Jerry Parker
Way to go, dealing patiently with every twist of Jacob’s sectarian line of assault. It’s a dirty job, but some Catholic has to do it!
Thanks for taking up his gauntlet every time that he tosses it down to your feet.Jerry Parker
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JacobG
Guest
Wow, you are putting words in my mouth. I never made such denial claims?
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JacobG
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Perhaps you have forgotten this is an open forum…Rinnie,
Way to go, dealing patiently with every twist of Jacob’s sectarian line of assault. It’s a dirty job, but some Catholic has to do it!
Jerry Parker
You speak as if I’m not here.I twist nothing. As a Lutheran, you should know the Bible quite well.
The truth is, my friends, the Scriptures nowhere teaches a NT priesthood with Priest, victim and sacrifice. That’s a carry over from the OT but Jesus fulfilled it and became High Priest forever.
These forums are about learning and seeking Truth, not about I’m right, you’re wrong, let’s go get him!!
I admit I sin daily. I also go straight to God each and every time I do. The Jews sought to stone Jesus because He claimed to forgive sins. The Jews understood perfectly that only God can forgive sins.
If you think its a dirty job to deny these Truths, you’re correct.
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Jerry_Parker
Guest
Jacob G,
**You wrote: ** *Perhaps you have forgotten this is an open forum… You speak as if I’m not here.
I twist nothing. As a Lutheran, you should know the Bible quite well. The truth is, my friends, the Scriptures nowhere teaches a N.T. priesthood with Priest, victim and sacrifice. That’s a carry over from the O.T. but Jesus fulfilled it and became High Priest forever. These forums are about learning and seeking Truth, not about I’m right, you’re wrong, let’s go get him!!
I am a Lutheran at this point only in name. My convictions are Catholic. I am in the slow process of being accepted as Catholic. I respect the heritage of Lutheranism, which has so much that is precious to offer, especially artistically, but that is subsumed now into the greater Christian heritage which finds its centre in the Catholic Churches, Roman (and Eastern) Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. A lot of Lutherans have been “swimming the Tiber or the Bosphorus” these days and I think that this is so for very good reasons.
Only God forgives sin, and Catholics know that. You assume too much to the contrary by overvaluing the cheap, reductionist line of thought of Fundamentalist sectarianism. Your problem with the priesthood is really a problem with any kind of institutional Christian ministry. You would abhor the role of a Lutheran or Anglican minister almost as much as that of a Catholic or Orhtodox priest. Yet, Jacob, Christ instituted the Christian ministry, as the words of Jesus, those of St. Luke in the Book of Acts, and of St. Paul in his epistles (especially the Pastoral Epistles) clearly state. Anyway, let’s get back to Rinnie’s way with you, not with my distraction from that, especially since I myself still am in the process of absorbing now the fulness of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.
Jerry Parker
**You wrote: ** *Perhaps you have forgotten this is an open forum… You speak as if I’m not here.
I twist nothing. As a Lutheran, you should know the Bible quite well. The truth is, my friends, the Scriptures nowhere teaches a N.T. priesthood with Priest, victim and sacrifice. That’s a carry over from the O.T. but Jesus fulfilled it and became High Priest forever. These forums are about learning and seeking Truth, not about I’m right, you’re wrong, let’s go get him!!
I admit I sin daily. I also go straight to God each and every time I do. The Jews sought to stone Jesus because He claimed to forgive sins. The Jews understood perfectly that only God can forgive sins. If you think its a dirty job to deny these Truths, you’re correct.*
In praising Rinnie for following you every step and twist of the way, I certainly am not denying that this Catholic Answers forum is public! I praised Rinnie precisely for dealing with you. That is public here and on her part for interacting with you.I am a Lutheran at this point only in name. My convictions are Catholic. I am in the slow process of being accepted as Catholic. I respect the heritage of Lutheranism, which has so much that is precious to offer, especially artistically, but that is subsumed now into the greater Christian heritage which finds its centre in the Catholic Churches, Roman (and Eastern) Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. A lot of Lutherans have been “swimming the Tiber or the Bosphorus” these days and I think that this is so for very good reasons.
Only God forgives sin, and Catholics know that. You assume too much to the contrary by overvaluing the cheap, reductionist line of thought of Fundamentalist sectarianism. Your problem with the priesthood is really a problem with any kind of institutional Christian ministry. You would abhor the role of a Lutheran or Anglican minister almost as much as that of a Catholic or Orhtodox priest. Yet, Jacob, Christ instituted the Christian ministry, as the words of Jesus, those of St. Luke in the Book of Acts, and of St. Paul in his epistles (especially the Pastoral Epistles) clearly state. Anyway, let’s get back to Rinnie’s way with you, not with my distraction from that, especially since I myself still am in the process of absorbing now the fulness of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.
Jerry Parker
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Jerry_Parker
Guest
Not a posting; I opened the message inadvertently.
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