Confessional, what gives man the right to forgive for God?

[Gabriel_of_12]

“To be honest, to confess, doesn’t necessarily mean to forgive. In all sincerity, a Muslim knows that Only Allah has the power of forgiveness (as far as sins go to confess). Yes, mankind may make mistakes to or upon another person, and yes, forgiveness from them Personally is required and/or actually mandatory.”

I think absoultion is never a certianty in confession as a Catholic, but I am not one, so you may have to check that one out…

So, since we agree forgiveness is only through God,
Lets move on to the more interesting part.

**notsmart why do you limit the power of Allah in forgiving sins? God has always worked his wonders through his holy ones. Absolution is a witness from a Holy man that God has forgiven your sins there is the certainty supported by God’s Word, where there are two gathered in his name their God will be present. It takes two to enter the throne room of God, one the sinner and one the witness, God has set this ministery in place since the beginning.

Catholics pray directly to God for our venial sins. But for a Mortal sin, a trail has to take place. In the confessional, there is the pentitent, the witness Priest, and our adversary Jesus is presence where the two are gathered in his name. The confesser pleads guilty, the Priest witnesses it and Jesus intercedes with his blood and body sacrifice, and God accepts the Jesus perfect sacrifice, and remembers the confessed sin no more forever, that is God’s guarantee.

For one to make the claim to confess his mortal sin directly to God with no assistance from God himself, limits the power of God. For one Sin cannot come near God, the sinner has always needed an advocate or advasery to intercede for his sins. For Catholics it is Jesus himself that intercedes on our behalf to God for our sins. And Jesus being the head of his church gave his body on earth to bind and loose, forgive sins, baptise and excercise his priestly gifts, promising his apostles he will never leave them. Catholics have the promise, guarantee from God himself to give us mercy and forgive our sins if we confess them to the apostles and their successors.**

Can you elaborate?

Lets say I am muslim. I commit a horrible sin upon my neighbor.
I confess this to say who now?

Well the ministry of reconciliation was given to Moses and Aaron in the levitcal priesthood according to God’s word. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and the prophets, and became humanity’s High Priest. And where there is a change in High priesthood, there is a change in Priestly law. Baptism is for the nonbeliever, the ministry of reconciliation that God gave the Church is for believers. You being a Muslim do not have to confess your sins, if you become Bapitsed in Jesus Christ all your actual sins and original sins God will forgive you, this is a promise from God.

 

[notsmart]

Well the ministry of reconciliation was given to Moses and Aaron in the levitcal priesthood according to God’s word

Yes, just as soon as the CC decides to let me be baptised I will.

Thank you, I think.

 

[notsmart]

So if Mary was not baptised…?

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello,

by Gabriel

Well the ministry of reconciliation was given to Moses and Aaron in the levitcal priesthood according to God’s word. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and the prophets, and became humanity’s High Priest. And where there is a change in High priesthood, there is a change in Priestly law. Baptism is for the nonbeliever, the ministry of reconciliation that God gave the Church is for believers. You being a Muslim do not have to confess your sins, if you become Bapitsed in Jesus Christ all your actual sins and original sins God will forgive you, this is a promise from God.

Ok, but remember what is says in your bible? Jesus had to leave and go away for they could not bear to hear the truth of everything…you claim he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets but his mission was incomplete according to the Bible…

“…Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go for If I Go Not Away, The Comforter Will Not Come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you…But the Comforter, Which is The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. etc…” John 14

have you not told me what that comforter has done since Jesus couldn’t continue his message?

There are numerous passages that state that the holy ghost (spirit) was already present (coming and going) before the birth and departure of Jesus.

(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1: 15 John the Baptist …
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1: 41 Elizabeth…
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1:67 Zachariah…
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 2:26 (Simeon)
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 3:22 shape like a dove

now, this being “the holy spirit” part of the 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 God/Trinity, then the verse that was stated in the Book according to John, yall actually are explaining it incorrectly…evidences speak for themselves.

Just wondering how can yall explain it?

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord Your God raise up unto You of Your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear In all things what-soever he shall say unto You.”
(HOLY BIBLE) Acts 3: 22

So actually, man after the saving and acceptance of Jesus has a free ticket to Paradise and is able to sin sin sin, commit adultery, fornicate, drink, gamble…anything he/she wishes??? All sins according to your explanation and many others are forgiven…wow…amazing how you think God’s messages are worthless…His Laws, commandments…you can just sin by day and night and be forgiven and you think you are worthy of this?

americanrevert

 

[mattkubes]

Ok, but remember what is says in your bible? Jesus had to leave and go away for they could not bear to hear the truth of everything…you claim he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets but his mission was incomplete according to the Bible…

Wait wait wait, even Jesus Himself, after fulfilling the prophecies on the cross, said “It is finished.” Seem pretty clear to me! The fact that some people did not believe means nothing. The people who left Him in John 6 just didn’t want to hear the Truth…but Jesus’ message still remained unaltered.

There are numerous passages that state that the holy ghost (spirit) was already present (coming and going) before the birth and departure of Jesus.

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything…the Holy Spirit, as the third person of the Holy Trinity, is eternal. Of course He was “coming and going” then!

now, this being “the holy spirit” part of the 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 God/Trinity, then the verse that was stated in the Book according to John, yall actually are explaining it incorrectly…evidences speak for themselves.

As a former Protestant, you know this is not what we believe. God is one in three Divine Persons. Just like someone else said on the other thread…1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

So actually, man after the saving and acceptance of Jesus has a free ticket to Paradise and is able to sin sin sin, commit adultery, fornicate, drink, gamble…anything he/she wishes??? All sins according to your explanation and many others are forgiven…wow…amazing how you think God’s messages are worthless…His Laws, commandments…you can just sin by day and night and be forgiven and you think you are worthy of this?

That’s not the Christian message. If we sin seriously and don’t repent, guess where we are probably going? This whole thread is about confession…you know that’s not what we believe.

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello Matt and good mornin,

you said,

Wait wait wait, even Jesus Himself, after fulfilling the prophecies on the cross, said “It is finished.” Seem pretty clear to me! The fact that some people did not believe means nothing. The people who left Him in John 6 just didn’t want to hear the Truth…but Jesus’ message still remained unaltered.

Then is there a contradiction in the Bible?

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything…the Holy Spirit, as the third person of the Holy Trinity, is eternal. Of course He was “coming and going” then!

Well, it goes like this, when you take a verse such as the one I quoted in the previous post from John and you claim that God is also part Holy Ghost, and also the Holy Ghost was present before and after Jesus, then what I quoted means that that verse is a contradiction. How can it come and relate when it already was there and the post where they said Jesus fulfilled like the prophets…this is indeed contradictory to that verse…big time because it was a must to go away (kinda makes it like Islamic doesn’t it ~go away for some time til he comes back again…doesn’t mean he has to die is what I mean ). This is all I mean and someone should explain it in simple terms…what is the “paraclete”, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter they translated it into.

As a former Protestant, you know this is not what we believe. God is one in three Divine Persons. Just like someone else said on the other thread…1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

yes, you take claim to it now but you must say, distinct…so each one isn’t times itself, they are all by themselves…so the X’s is an incorrect analogy.

That’s not the Christian message. If we sin seriously and don’t repent, guess where we are probably going? This whole thread is about confession…you know that’s not what we believe.

now wait up, that is not what they teach Matt…once you are saved, baptised etc…the holy spirit is to guide you…so what does this mean? that it is a lie? that Jesus’ alledged death on the cross means nothing? too confusing if you believe in both cause one contradicts the other…and they teach them both and don’t acknowledge them both together.



americanrevert

 

[mattkubes]

Well, it goes like this, when you take a verse such as the one I quoted in the previous post from John and you claim that God is also part Holy Ghost, and also the Holy Ghost was present before and after Jesus, then what I quoted means that that verse is a contradiction. How can it come and relate when it already was there and the post where they said Jesus fulfilled like the prophets…this is indeed contradictory to that verse…big time because it was a must to go away (kinda makes it like Islamic doesn’t it ~go away for some time til he comes back again…doesn’t mean he has to die is what I mean ). This is all I mean and someone should explain it in simple terms…what is the “paraclete”, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter they translated it into.

First, the Holy Spirit was not present before Jesus…John 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus exists from all eternity (remember, He is fully God with Father and Holy Spirit - Triune in nature, as One God). At the time of the Incarnation, the second person of the Holy Trinity took on flesh so that He could express, in terms we could understand (i.e. suffering), His infinite love for us.

Other than that…I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here (honest!). What was “a must to go away”?

now wait up, that is not what they teach Matt…once you are saved, baptised etc…the holy spirit is to guide you…so what does this mean? that it is a lie? that Jesus’ alledged death on the cross means nothing? too confusing if you believe in both cause one contradicts the other…and they teach them both and don’t acknowledge them both together.

 

[abucs]

AmericanRevert, from your words it is clear you are not understanding Catholicism.

Perhaps you should read up a little on it first and then at least you can understand what people say instead of jumping from one question to the next.

Read the Acts of the apostles at Pentecost with the Spirit coming down to visit the apostles who strengthens their faith.

The Apostles don’t forget about Jesus at that time but gain strength to go out to the whole world, in peace, and proclaim the death and ressurrection of Jesus.

The idea that Jesus mission is a failure is your assertion, it is not a Christian assertion.

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello,

by Matt, First, the Holy Spirit was not present before Jesus…John 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus exists from all eternity (remember, He is fully God with Father and Holy Spirit - Triune in nature, as One God). At the time of the Incarnation, the second person of the Holy Trinity took on flesh so that He could express, in terms we could understand (i.e. suffering), His infinite love for us.

Other than that…I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here (honest!). What was “a must to go away”?

Actually if you read the bible you find what you said a contradiction…then the verses in John are of no use? It says according to your bible that Jesus supposed had said the verse I quoted…in John…tired of typin lol…that he must go away in order for the comforter to come etc. etc. etc…now, Christian theologians, preachers, priests say that this “comforter” (paraclete) is the Holy Spirit…and it is to teach you things say to you things etc…now if that be the case…the verses that the Holy spirit that was already present ~~there would be no reason for him (Jesus) to go away. Is simple. Understand now? So am wondering what and how can they explain what was there, back n forth but a must that Jesus had to go away for it to come???



americanrevert

 

[Isa_Almisry]

No man has the right to forgive for God. Only God can forgive sins. That is why God Himself instituted Confession, as we read in John 20: 21-23.

He breathed on the Apostles, just as He had breathed into Adam to give him life, giving them His Spirit. He did not give Adam His Spirit but only life, animation. But to the Apostles He gave true life, the life in the Holy Spirit, which is the fulfillment of human life. When God gave the Apostles His Spirit He commanded them, “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

To understand fully what God meant, it is necessary to go back to an earlier period in Jesus’ life when He gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom (Matthew 16: 19), saying, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” It is no accident that these words and the words God spoke later on (“whose sins you forgive…”) are similar, but are exactly the words which God spoke. When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, He was using rabbinic language that was used at that time; to give “the keys to the kingdom of heaven” means to give someone authority, the authority to excommunicate, because the Jewish leaders were vicars of God on earth; i.e., by the authority entrusted to them by God Himself, the leaders excommunicated individuals.

This is the authority that Jesus gave Peter, which, in light of His mission of universal redemption, tells us three things: Jesus is creating a new Israel and Peter is the rock upon which the new People of God (the Church) stands, just as Moses was the rock upon Israel stood; Jesus is making a new and everlasting covenant; the Apostles will have the same authority that the Jewish leaders had in Jesus’ time (the authority to teach, to sanctify, and to rule).

Now, in light of this authority, we can understand Jesus’ words when He breathed on the Apostles. They don’t forgive sins as if they are gods - they act, in Jesus’ Person, as the ministers of God’s Mercy. And this is made more clear in light of the formula of absolution: “God, the Father of Mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen”

I’ll just add for the benefit of the Christians: unfortunately it will go right over the heads of the Muslims.

At creation God breathed His spirit into Man, at the Fall man was cut off from this and began to ashphyxiate and die.

On the Cross the Second Adam gives up His Spirit. On the Eighth Day of Creation, the First Day of the New Creation He once again breaths His Spirit into Man, “Receive the Holy Spirit…”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes, just as soon as the CC decides to let me be baptised I will.

Thank you, I think.

Jesus got baptised to fulfil all righteousness, John the baptist testified Jesus did not need to be baptised, but Jesus allowed it so as to fulfil every letter of the Law, including Mary where scripture shows her and Joseph taking Jesus to the temple for presentation and circumsicion according to the dictates of the Law in order to fulfil them. Had Jesus not did so in his humanity would disqualify him as the Messiah Moses foretold about who is to come. Remember during Jesus baptism heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon him and God spoke from heaven giving witness that Jesus was his divine Son.

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello Abucs,

quoted by Abucs:

AmericanRevert, from your words it is clear you are not understanding Catholicism.

Perhaps you should read up a little on it first and then at least you can understand what people say instead of jumping from one question to the next.

Read the Acts of the apostles at Pentecost with the Spirit coming down to visit the apostles who strengthens their faith.

The Apostles don’t forget about Jesus at that time but gain strength to go out to the whole world, in peace, and proclaim the death and ressurrection of Jesus.

The idea that Jesus mission is a failure is your assertion, it is not a Christian assertion.

It is in the Bible. I took it from the Bible. All the verses are there but I want an explanation. I am not jumping? Who’s jumping??? I answer what people put to me as best as I know how and I try to answer as best as I know how. I am not perfect and neither is anyone here.

I didn’t say he failed did I? I said he didn’t fulfill and thus, a need for his second coming. He will fulfill his duty as a follower of the message of God. Even according to your Bible Jesus had supposedly said that He must go away for many things he has to say to you but you cannot bear them now…etc. etc. etc…this is according to your Bible, not what you think I do not understand. ***It is an assertion and if you read upon it you will find it so. I have asked many…and they say the same thing…the Holy Spirit etc…but if Jesus was already filled with it, and many others, and is God/Jesus etc…then why the need for his leaving in a state as he said? It is in your bible! *** I am innocent in this…all I wanted was an explanation but I get words of difference instead.

bye for now…off to physiotherapy~!

americanrevert

 

[Isa_Almisry]

As usual, the “revert” is not being honest by going off topic and evading Christian rebuttals.

On another thread Muslim woman claims that the black stone functions to mark the starting and ending point of tawaaf.

I guess we should bring a similar black stone here so as to prevent Muslims from digression.

LOL. Maybe its a loadstone. Which reminds me, when the Muslims (the Qarmatians) carried off the Black Stone, how did the pilgrims keep track while it was gone. Or did they keep on going like a spliced tape?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello,

by Gabriel

Ok, but remember what is says in your bible? Jesus had to leave and go away for they could not bear to hear the truth of everything…you claim he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets but his mission was incomplete according to the Bible…

“…Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go for If I Go Not Away, The Comforter Will Not Come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you…But the Comforter, Which is The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. etc…” John 14

have you not told me what that comforter has done since Jesus couldn’t continue his message?

There are numerous passages that state that the holy ghost (spirit) was already present (coming and going) before the birth and departure of Jesus.

(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1: 15 John the Baptist …
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1: 41 Elizabeth…
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1:67 Zachariah…
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 2:26 (Simeon)
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 3:22 shape like a dove

now, this being “the holy spirit” part of the 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 God/Trinity, then the verse that was stated in the Book according to John, yall actually are explaining it incorrectly…evidences speak for themselves.

Just wondering how can yall explain it?

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord Your God raise up unto You of Your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear In all things what-soever he shall say unto You.”
(HOLY BIBLE) Acts 3: 22

So actually, man after the saving and acceptance of Jesus has a free ticket to Paradise and is able to sin sin sin, commit adultery, fornicate, drink, gamble…anything he/she wishes??? All sins according to your explanation and many others are forgiven…wow…amazing how you think God’s messages are worthless…His Laws, commandments…you can just sin by day and night and be forgiven and you think you are worthy of this?
so Islam creates legal loopholes commit adultery/fornicate (called divorce and polygamy),etc.
This has been explained to you before convert.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello Matt and good mornin,

you said,

Then is there a contradiction in the Bible?

Well, it goes like this, when you take a verse such as the one I quoted in the previous post from John and you claim that God is also part Holy Ghost, and also the Holy Ghost was present before and after Jesus, then what I quoted means that that verse is a contradiction. How can it come and relate when it already was there and the post where they said Jesus fulfilled like the prophets…this is indeed contradictory to that verse…big time because it was a must to go away (kinda makes it like Islamic doesn’t it ~go away for some time til he comes back again…doesn’t mean he has to die is what I mean ). This is all I mean and someone should explain it in simple terms…what is the “paraclete”, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter they translated it into.

yes, you take claim to it now but you must say, distinct…so each one isn’t times itself, they are all by themselves…so the X’s is an incorrect analogy.
each one of the “1” in 1x1x1 is distinct. And you’re right, they’re not all by themselves. And neither are the Divine Persons of the Holy Consubstantial Trinity, One in Essence.

now wait up, that is not what they teach Matt…once you are saved, baptised etc…the holy spirit is to guide you…so what does this mean? that it is a lie? that Jesus’ alledged death on the cross means nothing? too confusing if you believe in both cause one contradicts the other…and they teach them both and don’t acknowledge them both together.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hello,

Actually if you read the bible you find what you said a contradiction…then the verses in John are of no use? It says according to your bible that Jesus supposed had said the verse I quoted…in John…tired of typin lol…that he must go away in order for the comforter to come etc. etc. etc…now, Christian theologians, preachers, priests say that this “comforter” (paraclete) is the Holy Spirit…and it is to teach you things say to you things etc…now if that be the case…the verses that the Holy spirit that was already present ~~there would be no reason for him (Jesus) to go away. Is simple. Understand now? So am wondering what and how can they explain what was there, back n forth but a must that Jesus had to go away for it to come???

Sort of like the eternal Quran being saved from eternity up in heaven while God’s books are being corrupted on earth. Had to wait for Muhammad to get the edition right.

 

[Angelos]

Hello,

Ok, but remember what is says in your bible? Jesus had to leave and go away for they could not bear to hear the truth of everything…you claim he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets but his mission was incomplete according to the Bible…

Nope dear revert! You are getting several things wrong as usual. The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus accomplished His mission through His passion.

You are apparently confusing the New Testament with the Koran, which claims that Jesus was an inept messenger that could not accomplish the divine mission given Him. Jesus in the Koran is assumed into Heaven before He can do God’s work. Since the Koran denies salvation through crucifixion, Jesus’ adversaries become triumphant when God supposedly takes Him away from this world.

Hello,

“…Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go for If I Go Not Away, The Comforter Will Not Come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you…But the Comforter, Which is The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. etc…” John 14

When did Jesus give the promise of the Holy Spirit? Why did He promise the Spirit only to His followers in His farewell discourse just before His arrest and passion??? Why did Jesus emphasize the fact that the Father would send the Spirit IN HIS NAME???

Hello,

have you not told me what that comforter has done since Jesus couldn’t continue his message?

Nope. This is your absurd inference.

There are numerous passages that state that the holy ghost (spirit) was already present (coming and going) before the birth and departure of Jesus.

(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1: 15 John the Baptist …
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1: 41 Elizabeth…
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 1:67 Zachariah…
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 2:26 (Simeon)
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 3:22 shape like a dove

now, this being “the holy spirit” part of the 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 God/Trinity, then the verse that was stated in the Book according to John, yall actually are explaining it incorrectly…evidences speak for themselves.

The Holy Spirit exists eternally. We profess that the prophets of God spoke through the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus. Since nowhere in the NT is it written that the Holy Spirit was given to Jesus’ followers as a gift for their faith in Him before the day of Pentecost, your supposed contradiction comes to naught.

Hello,

Just wondering how can yall explain it?

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord Your God raise up unto You of Your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear In all things what-soever he shall say unto You.”
(HOLY BIBLE) Acts 3: 22

So actually, man after the saving and acceptance of Jesus has a free ticket to Paradise and is able to sin sin sin, commit adultery, fornicate, drink, gamble…anything he/she wishes??? All sins according to your explanation and many others are forgiven…wow…amazing how you think God’s messages are worthless…His Laws, commandments…you can just sin by day and night and be forgiven and you think you are worthy of this?

americanrevert

You have proven once more that you are an original Muslim. No honest ex-Christian would misunderstand the basic Christian tenet of salvation.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello,

by Gabriel

Ok, but remember what is says in your bible? Jesus had to leave and go away for they could not bear to hear the truth of everything…you claim he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets but his mission was incomplete according to the Bible…

Jesus ascended to heaven who is the second person of the Trinity, to offer his eternal sacrifice To the first person of the blessed Trinity; the Father who art in heaven and his name is Hallowed, for past present and future ages for all of humanity who would accept his free gift of salvation to God… Jesus ascended to heaven inorder to prove humanity his resurrection and will return finding his church doing all that he commisioned her to do until judgment day. We will see him return the same way he left. Now Jesus is present to humanity if man would accept his word in the Eucharist body,blood soul and divinity what is more he gave us the paraclete, comforter, helper, the third person of the blessed Trinity the Holy Spirit to dwell in us from our baptism, now God dwells among men. Jesus mission was to deliver us from eternal damnation, now he ascends to heaven to prepare mansions for us in heaven

 

[Angelos]

LOL. Maybe its a loadstone. Which reminds me, when the Muslims (the Qarmatians) carried off the Black Stone, how did the pilgrims keep track while it was gone. Or did they keep on going like a spliced tape?

They probably put a mark on the wall with the lipstick they inherited from Aisha