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diggerdomer
Guest
Fortunately, the Church’s sacramental theology is not dependent on nor driven by contemporary culture/experience.
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geoformeo
Guest
You’re right, the theology is not, but the circumstances surrounding their reception of the sacrament is. How many priests do you know that would be willing to marry a couple that wanted to wed at age 14?
J
Jermosh
Guest
They do it that young here. I think its wrong to be honest, there is far to much to commit to. I think they should be able to fully understand what they are commiting to before they actually do. But I am a convert, so slightly slighted.
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Mintaka
Guest
But it’s not about commitment. That’s the point.
The point of receiving Confirmation is that your Baptism’s grace is made more complete, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to you. God, through the bishop, offers those things freely to all the baptized who aren’t dissenting from the Church’s teachings.
You will note that unbaptized adults who join the Church do get Baptism, Confirmation, and Communion all at once. There’s no waiting period, no “try out your Baptism for a while and see if you like it, and then we’ll Confirm you”. Instead, you receive a full initiation.
In the old days, the usual Latin Rite way of doing things was, to Confirm baptized children at the moment they hit the age of reason and could commit sin. This was to give them full access to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and thus make them better protected in the fight against sin. (Nowadays, we leave kids defenceless until they’ve already been exposed to everything. Yay!)
It was Communion that you didn’t receive until you were a teenager, and able to understand and be serious about it, up until close to the end of the 1800’s. After a long time, though, the popes decided that it would be better to give kids First Communion at the age of reason also, as part of the drive toward more frequent reception of Communion for everybody – even earlier, if kids were early learners. There were a few four year olds admitted to First Communion because they knew and believed their Catechisms.
And now, the same kind of “ooh, they’re not ready” mentality is directed toward Confirmation, when it’s a lower level initiation sacrament than First Communion is!
But even when First Communion was received late, choosing to receive it wasn’t a choice. (Except insofar as you had to choose to stay in a state of grace before First Communion and you were encouraged to fast and pray for weeks ahead of time.) If you weren’t a heathen or a scandalously habitual sinner, and if your parish priest deemed you ready, you were going to receive.
That’s not to say that you were supposed to receive if you didn’t believe; but it wasn’t a big angsty deal. You believed and received, or you didn’t. End of story. (Except of course that you would surely become a focus of catechism efforts by the entire family and community.)
The point of receiving Confirmation is that your Baptism’s grace is made more complete, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to you. God, through the bishop, offers those things freely to all the baptized who aren’t dissenting from the Church’s teachings.
You will note that unbaptized adults who join the Church do get Baptism, Confirmation, and Communion all at once. There’s no waiting period, no “try out your Baptism for a while and see if you like it, and then we’ll Confirm you”. Instead, you receive a full initiation.
In the old days, the usual Latin Rite way of doing things was, to Confirm baptized children at the moment they hit the age of reason and could commit sin. This was to give them full access to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and thus make them better protected in the fight against sin. (Nowadays, we leave kids defenceless until they’ve already been exposed to everything. Yay!)
It was Communion that you didn’t receive until you were a teenager, and able to understand and be serious about it, up until close to the end of the 1800’s. After a long time, though, the popes decided that it would be better to give kids First Communion at the age of reason also, as part of the drive toward more frequent reception of Communion for everybody – even earlier, if kids were early learners. There were a few four year olds admitted to First Communion because they knew and believed their Catechisms.
And now, the same kind of “ooh, they’re not ready” mentality is directed toward Confirmation, when it’s a lower level initiation sacrament than First Communion is!
But even when First Communion was received late, choosing to receive it wasn’t a choice. (Except insofar as you had to choose to stay in a state of grace before First Communion and you were encouraged to fast and pray for weeks ahead of time.) If you weren’t a heathen or a scandalously habitual sinner, and if your parish priest deemed you ready, you were going to receive.
That’s not to say that you were supposed to receive if you didn’t believe; but it wasn’t a big angsty deal. You believed and received, or you didn’t. End of story. (Except of course that you would surely become a focus of catechism efforts by the entire family and community.)
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ryecroft
Guest
I’m going to put something down that I already did earlier - but before I do put it up, IMHO, I disagree with some of what you siad. I believe that some of these were given together in the older days because of the Bishops not being able to travel as much. It was a completely different time. But I have a hard time with hearing that once someone is Baptized, they are Catholic and are “obligated” to receive confirmation. I understand Baptizing because the parents believe and want the infant to be able to go to Heaven if something were to happen. But the confirmation has been left until the age of reason in the Western Church and I have to believe that the Hierarchy of the Church had some good reasons why. Let’s look at what they say :
1319 A candidate for Confirmation who has attained the age of reason must profess the faith, be in the state of grace, have the intention of receiving the sacrament, and be prepared to assume the role of disciple and witness to Christ, both within the ecclesial community and in temporal affairs.
To me this sounds an awful lot like they want the child or young adult to be able to go out and almost “preach” for want of a better word to those around him or her. They want this person to have the “intention” -the desire in other words (intention is defined as a Determination or resolve to act a certain way) - by the Church’s own words, they are wanting the person to “determine” that they are ready willing and able to do certain things.
You said (with regards to First Communion)
“That’s not to say that you were supposed to receive if you didn’t believe; but it wasn’t a big angsty deal. You believed and received, or you didn’t. End of story. (Except of course that you would surely become a focus of catechism efforts by the entire family and community.)” -
Personally, I was supposed to receive the sacrement at age 5 but because I wanted to wait for my Dad who was overseas to be there, I received it, I believe the day after I turned 6 when he had returned. I don’t think that anyone in my class truly understood the awesomeness or depth of what we were told happened in this sacrement. And personally, I know that there were some that did this not because they loved God but because it was expected. As a kid that young, you’re going to do what’s expected (most of the time) - plus if you were a girl, you got a neat white dress and of course there was a party and gifts. I am not sure where I stand, but I’m having to wonder with my kids if I won’t think that this is so important that perhaps it might be better to wait until kids are older to have a better understanding of what’s supposed to be happening - but that’s another topic.
I went through Confirmation because it was expected. My parents wanted me to and I just wanted to get it done with - it really was like “Catholic Graduation”.(and granted this is something that the people that teach it need to really look into) I wish I hadn’t gone through with it at the time, now. I wish I had voiced my problems about the Catholic Church, but quite honestly, I didn’t want to be put through the ringer of going to Priests, etc to be set straight with regards to this. I guess this is why I’m so proud of my God Daughter. She is honest enough to let us know she does not feel she can go out and be a disciple - while she can profess what Catholics believe, she herself does not believe all of that. She has gone through long talks with the Priest and Nun and she has stood her ground. Of course, I wish that she was o.k. with being confirmed, but I wouldn’t be a good God Mother if I told her “you’ll go through with this for your own good - it doesn’t matter whether you believe this stuff or not or if you believe what the Church says - you’ll do what we tell you is best…” Would that ever be hypocritical of me?! I will pray for her that she comes to love the faith and to understand it. I don’t want her just blindly accept things with which she doesn’t agree (I will try to explain some, though). I wouldn’t want my kids to do that!
continued on the next response - sorry ran out of room!
R
ryecroft
Guest
continued from above
!
I do understand that Confirmation is supposed to be additional grace received. If this is so, then what should it matter if the person has reached the age of reason - I believe that it has to do more with wanting the recipient to realize what he/she is accepting - it does sound to me that from the quote that they are wanting them to realize what is expected of them and be able to willingly and affirmatively “profess the faith” - this means that the candidate would have had to understood what he/she was professing.
I won’t coerce my God Daughter into receiving it as I really believe (and the Priest agrees as does the teacher who is a Nun at her school) that this is a sacrement which she should want to receive and she should also understand and believe what she is professing. Otherwise, I’ll wait until she can come to me and say that she is ready to receive her confirmation. In the mean time, she has agreed to finish up the classes and to come along with me to mass - she doesn’t have to take communion - I will offer to take her to confession anytime she wants to go but I won’t force the faith on her or bribe her into accepting it. All of that would do more harm than good.
God Bless
Rye
!
I do understand that Confirmation is supposed to be additional grace received. If this is so, then what should it matter if the person has reached the age of reason - I believe that it has to do more with wanting the recipient to realize what he/she is accepting - it does sound to me that from the quote that they are wanting them to realize what is expected of them and be able to willingly and affirmatively “profess the faith” - this means that the candidate would have had to understood what he/she was professing.
I won’t coerce my God Daughter into receiving it as I really believe (and the Priest agrees as does the teacher who is a Nun at her school) that this is a sacrement which she should want to receive and she should also understand and believe what she is professing. Otherwise, I’ll wait until she can come to me and say that she is ready to receive her confirmation. In the mean time, she has agreed to finish up the classes and to come along with me to mass - she doesn’t have to take communion - I will offer to take her to confession anytime she wants to go but I won’t force the faith on her or bribe her into accepting it. All of that would do more harm than good.
God Bless
Rye
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tee_eff_em
Guest
[W]hat should it matter if the person has reached the age of reason? Because no one who has attained the age of discretion should be confirmed if he does not *desire *it. In the same way, no one who has attained the age of discretion should be baptized, or eucharized, or receive any other of the sacraments against his will.
Infants (who have not attained the age of discretion) can be and are baptized (and chrismated and eucharized) by the *desire *expressed by their parents, and they can and do experience the grace these sacraments impart.
So what does Canon 890 mean by obliging the faithful to receive confirmation at the proper time? I am neither a Canon Lawyer nor a Catechist, but :twocents:: I think the *proper time *may be manifested in a variety of ways, eg
- The catechumen should receive the sacraments of initiation together. (Does any RCIA program allow a catechumen to say “You know, I just want to be baptized – Hold the eucharist and confirmation for another time, if at all”?
) - A man who presents himself for ordination should be confirmed if he has not been already (cf. Canon 1033)
- A Catholic man or woman who seeks to receive the sacrament of marriage should be confirmed if she has been already. (cf Canon 1065)
- The 8th grader who has been through religious education classes and does not desire to receive confirmation should not receive it. And that 8th grader’s parents and other teachers should look to themselves for their failure to instill the desire for the sacrament in such a candidate.
It is not something implicit in *Confirmation *-- It is something implicit in the state of having attained the age of discretion.
tee
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
The person being confirmed isn’t committing to anything new. Once they were baptized they were already committed to being Catholic. If you want a sacrament to wait for an adult commitment, then you would have to delay baptism until a person was an adult.
The Eastern Church baptizes and confirms infants. The Western Church separates the two sacraments so that the bishop can confirm, but doesn’t change their meaning. The Catechism explains the difference:
1292
The practice of the Eastern Churches gives greater emphasis to the unity of Christian initiation. That of the Latin Church more clearly expresses the communion of the new Christian with the bishop as guarantor and servant of the unity, catholicity and apostolicity of his Church, and hence the connection with the apostolic origins of Christ’s Church.
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ryecroft
Guest
I wanted to note what the Baltimore Catechism said with regards to Confirmation:
338. What does the sacramental grace of Confirmation help us to do?
The sacramental grace of Confirmation helps us to live our faith loyally and to profess it courageously.
339. What is the character of Confirmation?
The character of Confirmation is a spiritual and indelible sign which marks the Christian as a soldier in the army of Christ.
340. What is necessary to receive Confirmation properly?
To receive Confirmation properly it is necessary to be in the state of grace, and to know well the chief truths and duties of our religion.
This makes it clear that one who is to receive confirmation must be ready willing and able to profess and agree with the faith and to defend the faith (by being a solder in the army of Christ. You must agree to this - and you are also to know and be willing to arry out the duties of a Catholic. This implies that possibly before confirmation one might not have been fully aware of what was expected or needed. So Confirmation is NOT just receiving grace and the Holy Spirit - it also has to do with being willing to stand up for the faith and be in agreement with it.
God Bless
Rye
338. What does the sacramental grace of Confirmation help us to do?
The sacramental grace of Confirmation helps us to live our faith loyally and to profess it courageously.
339. What is the character of Confirmation?
The character of Confirmation is a spiritual and indelible sign which marks the Christian as a soldier in the army of Christ.
340. What is necessary to receive Confirmation properly?
To receive Confirmation properly it is necessary to be in the state of grace, and to know well the chief truths and duties of our religion.
This makes it clear that one who is to receive confirmation must be ready willing and able to profess and agree with the faith and to defend the faith (by being a solder in the army of Christ. You must agree to this - and you are also to know and be willing to arry out the duties of a Catholic. This implies that possibly before confirmation one might not have been fully aware of what was expected or needed. So Confirmation is NOT just receiving grace and the Holy Spirit - it also has to do with being willing to stand up for the faith and be in agreement with it.
God Bless
Rye
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TheosisM
Guest
That only applies to Roman Catholics. Eastern Catholics, along with the Orthodox, confirm infants (just after they are baptized), so “know[ing] well the chief truths and duties of our religion” doesn’t apply to them of course.
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ryecroft
Guest
I consider myself one of my God Daughter’s teachers and I have always brought her up to respect the faith and also revere it. But I have also (as have her parents) brought her up not to just blindly accept teachings (yes, of course we’ve brought her up to have faith and to believe in God even though she can’t “see” Him.) I believe I have said this before, but I will say it again - I’m proud of my God Daughter - I would rather have her be honest about how she feels/believes instead of just be confirmed because she feels it’s something that’s expected. To me, the questions and reasons she has brought up show me that she has thought about Catholicism and Confirmation more than I think most kids or young adults do.In no way have I “failed” my God Daughter! I am glad she feels she can be this honest with us. I don’t think a good Catholic is one who receives all the sacrements and just blindly accepts everything without ever questioning it or wanting to know/understand the reasons. Religion/faith/Catholicism is NOT always black and white. Of course I would like her to be confirmed - but when she can say to herself that she can “profess” truly and willingly what she believes and when she has made the decision to be Confirmed not because everyone else is doing it or because we’ve bribed her with a party or coerced her into doing it and especially not because her parents or I have said “this is something you’ll do because it’s for your own good - like it or not…” I appreciate all on here who have said and tried to convince me that Confirmation is something that should be received by kids regardless of how they feel about it, but in my opinion (and I have quoted some of the Catholic teachings from Catholic sources) that convince me that the Latin Ecclesiastical Hierarchy wants the person receiving Confirmation to be able to willingly and knowingly “profess” their belief, be ready to be a “disciple” and also ready to follow what the Church teaches. I personally believe that people should be made to discuss their faith and any problems/questions they have with regards to accepting the Catholic Faith. (and yes, I know I’ll be told that this is not and “acceptance” of the Catholic faith, but I really believe that the way the Latin Rite Hierarchy has this set up waiting until after the age of reason has hit and specifying things which should be done or be present in the heart of the Confirmed candidate. The Church had reasons for wanting the person to be of the age of reason and able to willingly profess their faith. But again, as far as having “failed” our God Daughter, we have not-I’m proud that she can express herself and her own mind.[W]hat should it matter if the person has reached the age of reason? Because no one who has attained the age of discretion should be confirmed if he does not *desire *it. In the same way, no one who has attained the age of discretion should be baptized, or eucharized, or receive any other of the sacraments against his will.
Infants (who have not attained the age of discretion) can be and are baptized (and chrismated and eucharized) by the *desire *expressed by their parents, and they can and do experience the grace these sacraments impart.
So what does Canon 890 mean by obliging the faithful to receive confirmation at the proper time? I am neither a Canon Lawyer nor a Catechist, but :twocents:: I think the *proper time *may be manifested in a variety of ways, eg
That the candidate for confirmation who has attained the age of discretion should *make a choice *to receive the sacrament is not *unique *to confirmation – The candidate for *any *sacrament who has attained the age of discretion should not receive that sacrament unless he makes the choice to do so.
- The catechumen should receive the sacraments of initiation together. (Does any RCIA program allow a catechumen to say “You know, I just want to be baptized – Hold the eucharist and confirmation for another time, if at all”?
- A man who presents himself for ordination should be confirmed if he has not been already (cf. Canon 1033)
- A Catholic man or woman who seeks to receive the sacrament of marriage should be confirmed if she has been already. (cf Canon 1065)
- The 8th grader who has been through religious education classes and does not desire to receive confirmation should not receive it. And that 8th grader’s parents and other teachers should look to themselves for their failure to instill the desire for the sacrament in such a candidate.
It is not something implicit in *Confirmation *-- It is something implicit in the state of having attained the age of discretion.
tee
God Bless
Rye
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diggerdomer
Guest
None. So? How does that relate to this thread?
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diggerdomer
Guest
The Spirit is every much a part of baptism as the Father and Son are. Christians are baptized in the name of all three, there’s no withholding of any grace…is there?
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Jermosh
Guest
The issue is that they had no informed choice in the commitment, so its null and void.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
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puzzleannie
Guest
at least in this diocese at least 75% of those who will enter the Church through RCIA this year are school age children, grades 3-8.
In fact it is fast becoming normative to delay baptism, parents are not stupid. Once they realize this will be the practice if they withhold baptism, they figure they can get 3 sacraments for the price of one, which almost invariable, with few exceptions, these children will get no formal religious education, and may not even come back the week after Easter for their certificates.
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1ke
Guest
Neither baptism nor confirmation nor eucharist require “informed choice.” The Sacraments are valid.
You seem to lack a basic understanding of Catholic teaching.
1
1ke
Guest
We receive the Holy Spirit and sanctifying grace at baptism which imparts a character to our soul.
We receive the **Gifts **of the Holy Spirit and a new character (seal) on our soul at Confirmation.
M
Mickey
Guest
It would be good for Rome to follow the Eastern practice and administer the three sacraments of initiation to an infant.
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