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Jermosh
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To the person who is having it done to, yes. There are alot of evil people in the world who were baptised.Infant baptisms are null and void!?!?
The Church disagrees. :tsktsk:
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tee_eff_em
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…And many good people in the world were never baptized – Your point…?
The Church continues to disagree that infant baptisms are null and void.
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babochka
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I would add to that, to state the obvious, the church also disagrees that infant confirmation is null and void, or even inappropriate. Even in the western Church, in certain countries (Philippines and Mexico for example) it was, until fairly recently, common to confirm infants. I think the practice started to be discouraged, but not forbidden, during the mid-70. Although these are exceptions to the norm, based on previous necessity, it does underscore that the church considers them perfectly acceptable and valid. Confirmation is not a rite of passage, as we have come to believe in our culture.
In our local diocese, we have the full range allowed by canon law. Some parishes confirm in 2nd grade, prior to first communion. Others confirm as late at junior year in high school, with most parishes in between. The OP is arguing that children need to have complete understanding of the sacrament in order to receive it and seems to believe that the Church also requires that. I don’t see how it is possible, given that canon law explicitly allows 7 year olds to receive the sacrament. How many 7 year olds can express the level of faith and committment that she believes is necessary?
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Jermosh
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Maybe I am not getting my point accross. Having any sacrament to a person who does not choice that scarament means absolutly nothin to that person. They can be baptised, but willyfully make that baptism dematerialize by their direct actions of sin, case in point will it make a differance being in hell even though you were baptized, you dont get special attention if you are. Sacraments are there to help us gain Grace, but if we do not chose them, what good are they really? Thus the reasoning why having baptism and confermation at such a young age is useles on many levels IMHO. When I taught CCD, 6 of the kids there basically did not want to be there, they had absolutly no desire to be there, basically there under the threat of the parents. There were 2 that truely did want to be there though, one is still seeking priesthood, the other is an active part of that parish now.…And many good people in the world were never baptized – Your point…?
The Church continues to disagree that infant baptisms are null and void.
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Priscilla_Ann
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So an infant (through infant bapitsm) is made Catholic through no choice of their own? If, when they are able to choose, they leave the Catholic Church, do you still consider them Catholic – even though they never chose to be Catholic? This makes it sound as though Catholicism is something that is done TO a person – not necessarily an act of faith on the part of the person. Can this be right?
Do you believe that sacraments should be forced on children (whether they agree with Catholic teaching or not)? For what purpose?
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1ke
Guest
Yes.
Yes. A person baptized into the Catholic Church, or received into the Church by a profession of faith is always Catholic even if they cease to practice the faith.
Catholicism is not something “done” to anyone. Catholicism is a *relationship *with Christ. That relationship begins with Baptism. If the person is under the age of reason, the parents ask for baptism for the child and promise to raise the child in the faith. If the person is over the age of reason, they ask for baptism themselves.
Yes, baptism should be confer upon infants without delay. It is a very serious obligation of all Catholic parents.
A child coming to the Church over the age of reason must state their desire for baptism.
Perhaps reading about the Sacrament of Baptism would help:
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm
From the Catechism:
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Priscilla_Ann
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babochka
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The quotes from the Catechism seem entirely appropriate to me. I thought you were looking for Catholic teaching on this subject, which is most clearly and authoritatively stated in the Catechism.
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Jermosh
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I have to sort of agree, many think that Baptism is going to save them. When in fact it can do the exact opposite. The problem with the CCC is it needs to be read fully, not just bits and peices, we do this to Scripture as well.
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prodigalson12
Guest
Ok tee_eff_em, is not representing the Catholic church in any way, has no authority over what it teaches, has no roll within it, has no understanding of what it’s about, even 8k posts at CAF included.
The age is up to the local Bishop to decide, get it, understand now??? You can debate if he wants it at birth, or at the persons 92nd birthday, the church has discernment here, and at present, it’s leaving it in the hands of the person that’s there first hand to determin.
Seriously here though, I’m wondering if my decision to stick around CAF is worth my time, it’s rather pointless to speak out and say the same things over and over again, trying to get through to some totally thick headed, not willing to listen to reason, anti Catholic fanatics.
Bottom line, you get it or you don’t, if you do not, and want to respond, do so with some substance and making any claim had absolutely need to be backed up with real and true references and quotes.
The age is up to the local Bishop to decide, get it, understand now??? You can debate if he wants it at birth, or at the persons 92nd birthday, the church has discernment here, and at present, it’s leaving it in the hands of the person that’s there first hand to determin.
Seriously here though, I’m wondering if my decision to stick around CAF is worth my time, it’s rather pointless to speak out and say the same things over and over again, trying to get through to some totally thick headed, not willing to listen to reason, anti Catholic fanatics.
Bottom line, you get it or you don’t, if you do not, and want to respond, do so with some substance and making any claim had absolutely need to be backed up with real and true references and quotes.
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Mickey
Guest
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (*The Apostolic Tradition *21:16 [A.D. 215]).
St Hippolytus
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diggerdomer
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This idea is different from Catholic teaching. While the sacraments may not be as “fruitful” depending on the disposition of those involved, Catholic believe they are valid and effective because it is primarily God who acts. Grace is conferred (so to speak) regardless.
The sun shines whether our eyes are open or not.
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