Confirmation requirements

[babochka]

ame.

After that, I promised my self that I would never allow another person to teach any of my children the faith. It would come from me. (and my husband).

I understand why you came to this decision, but I find this to be very sad. The parish, the community of believers, has a very definite role in the faith formation of our children. It is not the primary role, as that belongs to the parents, but I don’t think it should be excluded entirely. Even if your children aren’t in parish classes, teaching the faith is a proper role of the parish. The liturgy catechizes, the homily catechizes, the way that Christians show love for one another catechizes.

Edit: I realized in your other post that you are involved in your parish religious education program. You teach the classes yourself. This is definitely a great way to go! Sorry I misunderstood.

 

[babochka]

I

Well, no, I don’t get paid, I am a volunteer and you made the promise to do so when you baptized your child.

You can’t give what you don’t have. As you said, 40 years of bad catechesis has had its effect. This is what parishes are trying to correct with all these requirements. Some First Communon and Confirmation programs include mandatory catechesis for the parents as well. I get that parishes are doing their best and in some cases, they have to start from scratch with parents and children.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The Bishops and Archbishops can provide parishes with guidelines, and the Pastors have to comply.
I’ve never seen so many people OPPOSED to Faith Formation.
Wow.

One thing you have to realize is that you, and your parish and perhaps even your diocese is incredibly blessed,
Some of us would harm our children if we were to put them in faith formation programs.
And yes, we’ve tried to help at the parish level.
From your postings, I’d be happy to put my children in your programs.

It’s a very personal issue, and you should be aware that sometimes circumstances are different for others. I’ve always appreciated your zeal for ministry. I’ve also always envied your insulation from the harmful elements that can plague entire geographies.

Even though I would happily put my children under your program personally. You must realize that through seton, homeschooling, our home faith life and our involvement in the faith, no communal program could ever touch our level of catechisis, or formation. It’s just logistics, time, materials and the familial relationships. And that is why the parents are the primary ( and in some cases superior) educators of the faith.

 

[babochka]

For the sake of math, let’s say you have 100 kids being confirmed. You have a full time youth ministry team and they plan on running the program from sept-June, following the school year. If it’s not mandatory, then you maybe get 25 kids… the rest show up a week before confirmation. The retreat is a common and powerful event. And the bishops usually demand at least one letter, ( ours reads them all personally diocese wide). But even with all that, “mandatory” stuff you have, homeschoolers who don’t feel religious ed is adequate or perhaps it’s even contrary to thier home catechisis, parents who don’t want kids out of sight overnight for the retreats, parents who think sports, music or any other activity is more important, elitists who think sending thier kid to private school is enough. Parents who don’t practice the faith… parents who have kids with special needs, kids who are shy, kids who live in divorced families and spend half the time away, families who just think of it as a cultural issue, etc… and yes, I fall into a couple of these categories.

Even with the “mandatory” rules a small minority could comply with all of it.

So instead of 25 percent participation you have maybe 75 percent participation in the program. But yet I guarantee you still 100 will be confirmed.

These types of programs are led by the laity but you can bet father gets lots of calls and you can bet thebsqueeky wheels get oiled.

It’s an old education/ teacher trick.

It works, I mean you think the rules are rigerous right!?

Yet at the end of the day 100 kids confirmed, and it’s still a mess.

It’s the reality of youth ministry.

So is this kind of like telling people to arrive 15 minutes early because you know most people will be late? And then starting late anyway to accommodate those who arrive late?

 

[tafan]

The Bishops and Archbishops can provide parishes with guidelines, and the Pastors have to comply.
I’ve never seen so many people OPPOSED to Faith Formation.
Wow.

No one is opposed to faith formation. But I have a big problem with those requirements. Waiting for confirmation until a kid is 16? That is really absurd. Does no one have any faith in the efficacy of the sacraments? Instead we choose to hold sacrament in front of the kids like a carrot to get them to in the programs. And lets be honest, these requirements are put forth to parents to try to force the issue to get the kids into faith formation. I have no problem with very strong encouragement of parents to get kids in a very good faith formation program. But one should not threaten to deny sacraments to a person who is properly disposed to receive them. As the priest said on the web site previously cited, since canon law establishes the right to receive the sacrament, the burden is on the pastor to say a child is not disposed.

Kids should be confirmed at the age of reason. I understand that the Church allows for a bishop’s conference to determine a alternative age, and that the USCCB has likewise left it up to each bishop. But the universal law is the age of reason, and that certainly makes more sense.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So is this kind of like telling people to arrive 15 minutes early because you know most people will be late? And then starting late anyway to accommodate those who arrive late?

Yes…,

Come to think of it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No one is opposed to faith formation. But I have a big problem with those requirements. Waiting for confirmation until a kid is 16? That is really absurd. Does no one have any faith in the efficacy of the sacraments? Instead we choose to hold sacrament in front of the kids like a carrot to get them to in the programs. And lets be honest, these requirements are put forth to parents to try to force the issue to get the kids into faith formation. I have no problem with very strong encouragement of parents to get kids in a very good faith formation program. But one should not threaten to deny sacraments to a person who is properly disposed to receive them. As the priest said on the web site previously cited, since canon law establishes the right to receive the sacrament, the burden is on the pastor to say a child is not disposed.

Kids should be confirmed at the age of reason. I understand that the Church allows for a bishop’s conference to determine a alternative age, and that the USCCB has likewise left it up to each bishop. But the universal law is the age of reason, and that certainly makes more sense.

Age of reason is not the universal law of the church. Some rites, not the Roman one, do so in infancy.

 

[tafan]

Age of reason is not the universal law of the church. Some rites, not the Roman one, do so in infancy.

Yes, I misspoke. It is the law of the Roman Rite.

 

[tafan]

Yes…,

Come to think of it.

Using a sacrament as a “education/ teacher trick” seems very wrong to me.

 

[pianistclare]

One thing you have to realize is that you, and your parish and perhaps even your diocese is incredibly blessed,
Some of us would harm our children if we were to put them in faith formation programs.
And yes, we’ve tried to help at the parish level.
From your postings, I’d be happy to put my children in your programs.

It’s a very personal issue, and you should be aware that sometimes circumstances are different for others. I’ve always appreciated your zeal for ministry. I’ve also always envied your insulation from the harmful elements that can plague entire geographies.

Even though I would happily put my children under your program personally. You must realize that through seton, homeschooling, our home faith life and our involvement in the faith, no communal program could ever touch our level of catechisis, or formation. It’s just logistics, time, materials and the familial relationships. And that is why the parents are the primary ( and in some cases superior) educators of the faith.

I get that. But I wish people would not assume we’re all “up to something”. Like denying children Sacraments, making things hard just for grins, and pulling stuff out of our #$$.

It just doesn’t happen that way. A person in Religious Ed must comply with the Pastor who must comply with the Bishop who must comply with the Archbishop.
We don’t’ get to make ANY of the decisions.
People are made at the wrong people. All of the work, none of the autonomy.

Hoosier,
Thanks for you kind words. I guess this would be a good time to say that I’m quitting being a DRE.
I’ve secured a great job at another parish being Director of Music & Liturgy, and also Director of RCIA.

So, the only thing I’ll likely have to worry about/contend with is people and their mostly very sad annulment stories. But I’ll still get to teach people who want to be taught.
And MUSIC! What could be better?

I’ll miss the kids. I really will. They are fabulous if they find their way to us. Such a privilege to teach them.

For those who wonder WHY they add on all this stuff:

It’s because it is literally the LAST time you can teach them anything. Once they are Confirmed…they are DONE. People never come back. Parents take Sundays off, children never return. The US Catholic Bishops realize this. Which is why the restored order is such a disaster for American Catholic youth. You’re looking at huge numbers of Catholic children who leave at the 3rd grade level and never receive further education in the faith.
Disaster. You think the pews are empty now? Think it’s sad that parishes close? Just wait.

At least if we hold off until 15, we have a shot at them in high school, when faith formation is SO crucial. The children of America are being catechized by media, celebrities, and politically correct types. We see it in the attitudes of the kids. They come to us believing gay sex is peachy. That you should get married on the beach. That divorce is no big deal. That the clergy are just conning people. That the Bible contains no history or eyewitness accounts. That the Eucharist is just a symbol.

**That no one loves them. **

Sad. Shocking. True.
They don’t believe they have any value. :bighanky:

 

[pianistclare]

Using a sacrament as a “education/ teacher trick” seems very wrong to me.

Nobody complains when they ask the same for Eucharist.
Except no Community Service, but the educational requirements are the same.
Same retreat.
Same supplemental classes, same 2 years of prep.

 

[tafan]

Nobody complains when they ask the same for Eucharist.
Except no Community Service, but the educational requirements are the same.
Same retreat.
Same supplemental classes, same 2 years of prep.

There is a difference. I bet kids are allowed to receive their first communion at the age of reason. You are not delaying the age of first communion in order to keep kids in a faith formation program. Again, there seems to be a definite lack in faith in the efficacy of the sacrament.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I get that. But I wish people would not assume we’re all “up to something”. Like denying children Sacraments, making things hard just for grins, and pulling stuff out of our #$$.

It just doesn’t happen that way. A person in Religious Ed must comply with the Pastor who must comply with the Bishop who must comply with the Archbishop.
We don’t’ get to make ANY of the decisions.
People are made at the wrong people. All of the work, none of the autonomy.

Hoosier,
Thanks for you kind words. I guess this would be a good time to say that I’m quitting being a DRE.
I’ve secured a great job at another parish being Director of Music & Liturgy, and also Director of RCIA.

So, the only thing I’ll likely have to worry about/contend with is people and their mostly very sad annulment stories. But I’ll still get to teach people who want to be taught.
And MUSIC! What could be better?

I’ll miss the kids. I really will. They are fabulous if they find their way to us. Such a privilege to teach them.

For those who wonder WHY they add on all this stuff:

It’s because it is literally the LAST time you can teach them anything. Once they are Confirmed…they are DONE. People never come back. Parents take Sundays off, children never return. The US Catholic Bishops realize this. Which is why the restored order is such a disaster for American Catholic youth. You’re looking at huge numbers of Catholic children who leave at the 3rd grade level and never receive further education in the faith.
Disaster. You think the pews are empty now? Think it’s sad that parishes close? Just wait.

At least if we hold off until 15, we have a shot at them in high school, when faith formation is SO crucial. The children of America are being catechized by media, celebrities, and politically correct types. We see it in the attitudes of the kids. They come to us believing gay sex is peachy. That you should get married on the beach. That divorce is no big deal. That the clergy are just conning people. That the Bible contains no history or eyewitness accounts. That the Eucharist is just a symbol.

**That no one loves them. **

Sad. Shocking. True.
They don’t believe they have any value. :bighanky:

It’s tempting to uproot my family, move across country again, and work with you in your new parish…
Or better yet… what’s the price to move you to our location…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Using a sacrament as a “education/ teacher trick” seems very wrong to me.

Though our experience is probably similar and our objections the same, I’d really caution you on judgement here, because I’ve seen both sides, I’ve run a program, and those tactics aren’t wrong, they are necessary. Sometimes youth ministry is a triage.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

In our parish the kids are not Confirmed until the end of Sophomore year and by that time very little actual teaching takes place. Basically the kids only watch videos (mandatory) and listen to talks (at least four this year) on becoming a nun or priest. Nothing about marriage.

It is the saddest program I have ever worked with and I have been working as a Catechist for over 20 years. I am trying to change the program but our pastor is only interested in building a new building in a parish that has loads of money but is not growing. He has said that the Confirmation program is not a priority for him. Said those words directly to me.

By the time the kids are Confirmed they have been pestered about community service, st. reports, etc., they can’t wait for it to “be done” and neither can the parents. No retreat. No time to discuss real issues. Just show the video and end the class. No joy of the faith.

I understand the video series was put into place after I complained about what was being taught to my daughter. But this is not the answer. We need to have trained Catechist lead the kids joyfully through the “last years of their faith formation” so they want to continue to learn. Not “require” this or that to be done.

You can’t EARN a sacrament. Sacraments are freely given. The kids NEED the sacrament to be able to grow in the faith…We all NEED the sacraments to grow in faith. They actually do something!

 

[tafan]

Though our experience is probably similar and our objections the same, I’d really caution you on judgement here, because I’ve seen both sides, I’ve run a program, and those tactics aren’t wrong, they are necessary. Sometimes youth ministry is a triage.

Well, I will give the parish/diocese the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that they are not playing tricks with the sacrament, I realize that is your guess of the situation.
But I am certain they have delayed the reception of the sacrament solely to keep kids in faith formation. I have heard the arguments, our parish for a while was using a restored order of the sacraments (unfortunately for my kids, it did not pertain to the kids in the parish school). It was in several of our parishes and the Bishop decided he needed to standardize the time and unfortunately decided on the 8th grade. But when the decision was being made, I heard all of the arguments both ways. It all came down to two arguments:

1. pro restored order - our kids need the grace of the sacrament, especially in this day and age when our society bombards them with all the wrong messages.
2. pro 8th grade - we need to keep kids in faith formation

I strongly sided with the first argument. No one even wanted to investigate other means of keeping kids in faith formation. I actually think the bishop wanted to go with the restored order, but in the end did not want to go against the advice of most of the DREs in the parishes (at least that is what I heard from a pretty reliable source who was in the meetings).

 

[tafan]

In our parish the kids are not Confirmed until the end of Sophomore year and by that time very little actual teaching takes place. Basically the kids only watch videos (mandatory) and listen to talks (at least four this year) on becoming a nun or priest. Nothing about marriage.

It is the saddest program I have ever worked with and I have been working as a Catechist for over 20 years. I am trying to change the program but our pastor is only interested in building a new building in a parish that has loads of money but is not growing. He has said that the Confirmation program is not a priority for him. Said those words directly to me.

By the time the kids are Confirmed they have been pestered about community service, st. reports, etc., they can’t wait for it to “be done” and neither can the parents. No retreat. No time to discuss real issues. Just show the video and end the class. No joy of the faith.

I understand the video series was put into place after I complained about what was being taught to my daughter. But this is not the answer. We need to have trained Catechist lead the kids joyfully through the “last years of their faith formation” so they want to continue to learn. Not “require” this or that to be done.

You can’t EARN a sacrament. Sacraments are freely given. The kids NEED the sacrament to be able to grow in the faith…We all NEED the sacraments to grow in faith. They actually do something!

Yes, This would be the normal situation. I have taught the confirmation preparation classes in our parish also, and it is much the same. The kids just want to get it over with, they are so bombarded with the “do this, do that, do this, do that or you won’t get confirmed”. And then they are confirmed and many of them want nothing more to do with any type of youth ministry or faith formation, its all just a total turn-off to them.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

In our parish the kids are not Confirmed until the end of Sophomore year and by that time very little actual teaching takes place. Basically the kids only watch videos (mandatory) and listen to talks (at least four this year) on becoming a nun or priest. Nothing about marriage.

It is the saddest program I have ever worked with and I have been working as a Catechist for over 20 years. I am trying to change the program but our pastor is only interested in building a new building in a parish that has loads of money but is not growing. He has said that the Confirmation program is not a priority for him. Said those words directly to me.

By the time the kids are Confirmed they have been pestered about community service, st. reports, etc., they can’t wait for it to “be done” and neither can the parents. No retreat. No time to discuss real issues. Just show the video and end the class. No joy of the faith.

I understand the video series was put into place after I complained about what was being taught to my daughter. But this is not the answer. We need to have trained Catechist lead the kids joyfully through the “last years of their faith formation” so they want to continue to learn. Not “require” this or that to be done.

You can’t EARN a sacrament. Sacraments are freely given. The kids NEED the sacrament to be able to grow in the faith…We all NEED the sacraments to grow in faith. They actually do something!

I would be interested in know what video series your parish is using.
We have used 2 different programs, but they are supplemental to our instruction.
One of them has an awesome workbook that goes with the program and is pretty comprehensive. The idea that just showing videos with no discussion, IMHO is not “teaching” anyone anything.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

We use the Mark Hart series Encounter for 7th grade. It was just a basic overview of the Bible. (We teach the Bible extensively in 6th grade so the kids were bored and truthfully learned much more in 6th grade than 7th grade with the video.)

We are using Chosen in 8,9,10th grades. It does have a workbook but we only meet 6 times for classroom “instruction” and it just isn’t enough time to really discuss issues and the topics we have been given are super basic. (An example “Is there a God?”) Duh, the kids are past that…

Another big problem is the DRE. I believe she must have some personal issues and she has never taught this age (she has an elementary degree, but has never taught any age except 1st grade CCD), she is young, unmarried so she doesn’t even have experience parenting teenagers and has difficulty relating to the teens as well as the parents. She comes from an influential family in the parish. I pray for her daily and I understand she needs the job but in the mean time, kids are being lost. Lots of kids. We used to Confirm about 100 kids a year now we are lucky to Confirm half that. And the ones we do Confirm are “burned out” by the time Confirmation finally comes around. The pastor believed he needed a young person to run the program so the kids could better relate. I think differently. I think the kids are looking for a “parent” figure to help guide them these last few years of Religious Education. Different points of view…

 

[pianistclare]

It’s tempting to uproot my family, move across country again, and work with you in your new parish…
Or better yet… what’s the price to move you to our location…

---

As shucks. Thank you HD.
I know you love your kids more than life itself.
I’m sure they are getting a good education at the hands of their parents. :tiphat:***

But your situation is rare. Most parents have no clue what the Church teaches about anything, and they certainly don’t favor the restored order because “the kids need grace”.
You get grace from Eucharist too. But if they don’t come to Mass or Confession…???
I have yet to hear any parent claim that they desire GRACE for their children. They want that certificate, they want to know how many classes can they miss, and they want to know when they can be officially DONE with church.
yup. That’s the prevailing sentiment. People have to remember that CAF is a sort of hothouse for people of faith. It’s not like CAF in the offline world. :nope: