Confirmed: Obama, Romney to attend Al Smith dinner [CWN]

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Ridgerunner said:
Hating someone and telling the truth on them and to them are not the same things.
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The dislike, or hating, has blinded some to go after a man of the Church, who has a current lawsuit against this administration. That lawsuit is the truth being not only told on the administration, it’s being told to the administration.
 
shocktrooper said:
I am saying that you can’t do “good” toward your enemy at the sake of the innocent. The innocent are the faithful flock that will be scandalized. The unfaithful Catholics will be hardened in their support for Obama, going against Catholic moral teaching.
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Where does Christ qualify which enemy could not have good done unto them, as you describe? It’s not there…

Scriptures do tell us to obey our prelates…that would be the Cardinal. Let him represent us. He received being elevated to Cardinal after having discussions with Obama concerning Catholic doctrines. Evidently, the Pope has confidence in him.

I don’t label people as ‘unfaithful’ Catholics, because I cannot see what’s in their hearts and there is only one judge, that will judge us all. If there are some who are weak, we should be strong and try to lift them up; not beat them down or try to place a divide between us. Also, I don’t believe anyone doesn’t realize that the Church is suing this administration. Only the ‘ranters’ are placing such an importance on a non-political charity fundraiser.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
He AND Romney are guests of honor. Shall both be disinvited? Do you thnk he will use the opportunity to give a campaign speech? Will Romney give a campaign speech? Don’t read too much into a social gathering.

I’m certain that neither Obama nor Romney intend to make it a political event to their own benefit. Each knows the rules, and I expect no more than bad jokes and some overindulgence by some of the guests in food and drink.

Not to the faith, but to the reputation of the Cardinal Archbishop and to the reputation of the Church.
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Only Obama should be uninvited due to his public condemnation and public attacks on the faith. If this was a private meeting, I would have no problem with it.

Is the Cardinal’s reputation more important than the unity of faith?
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
I don’t label people as ‘unfaithful’ Catholics, because I cannot see what’s in their hearts and there is only one judge, that will judge us all. If there are some who are weak, we should be strong and try to lift them up; not beat them down or try to place a divide between us. Also, I don’t believe anyone doesn’t realize that the Church is suing this administration. Only the ‘ranters’ are placing such an importance on a non-political charity fundraiser.
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Can anyone be “unfaithful”? Should we eliminate the word altogether from the Church? Just because you cannot see what is in their heart does not mean they are not unfaithful. Also, by their fruits you will know them. A good tree produces good fruit, right? The divide is placed by those that contradict the faith, not the ones being faithful. You can’t place the fault for the divide on those being faithful.
 
shocktrooper said:
Can anyone be “unfaithful”? Should we eliminate the word altogether from the Church? Just because you cannot see what is in their heart does not mean they are not unfaithful. Also, by their fruits you will know them. A good tree produces good fruit, right? The divide is placed by those that contradict the faith, not the ones being faithful. You can’t place the fault for the divide on those being faithful.
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They have faith in Christ; even though they maybe misinformed, or mistaken. It’s not intentionally unfaithful. We, the Catholic Church, works on unification with other Churches, yet we have those who seem to want to continue with even more divisions, even within the Church. To learn to love our enemies, we must first learn to love one another as He loved us. If that one sheep goes astray…
Mat 18:12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and goeth to seek that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
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Ridgerunner said:
As I recall, Jesus did not hang out with the Scribes and Pharisees. He condemned them as “whitened sepulchres” full of dead mens’ bones. He wasn’t very soft on the vain and the exploitive. He was different with those who committed sins of weakness.
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He hung out with a Senator, Joseph of Aramathea.
All that is known for certain concerning him is derived from the canonical Gospels. He was born at Arimathea — hence his surname — “a city of Judea” (Luke 23:51), which is very likely identical with Ramatha, the birthplace of the Prophet Samuel, although several scholars prefer to identify it with the town of Ramleh. He was a wealthy Israelite (Matthew 27:57), “a good and a just man” (Luke 23:50), “who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God” (Mark 15:43). He is also called by St. Mark and by St. Luke a bouleutes, literally, “a senator”, whereby is meant a member of the Sanhedrin or supreme council of the Jews.
newadvent.org/cathen/08520a.htm
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Also, there were members of the Sanhedrin who were friends of Jesus who later became his disciples, after post Resurrection awareness.

Also, the most famous Pharisee of all, St Paul, whom Jesus appeared to, became the greatest evangelist of all time. BTW, before his conversion, Saul was a staunch conservative.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
He hung out with a Senator, Joseph of Aramathea.

Also, there were members of the Sanhedrin who were friends of Jesus who later became his disciples, after post Resurrection awareness.

Also, the most famous Pharisee of all, St Paul, whom Jesus appeared to, became the greatest evangelist of all time. BTW, before his conversion, Saul was a staunch conservative.

Jim
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Joseph of Aramathea never opposed Jesus’ mission, though he kept his long adherence to Him close to the vest. And St. Paul converted. Had he been a staunch “conservative” before his conversion, he would not have thrown his lot in with foreign imperialists, as he did, chasing around the known world persecuting Christians. He would have been a nice Jewish boy studying Torah when not doing some other honest and honorable thing for a living. Nice try with that one, though. 🙂

And how do you know any of the Jews who followed Jesus after His death were any of the ones whom He called “whitened sepulchers”? You actually don’t, of course.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Joseph of Aramathea never opposed Jesus’ mission, though he kept his long adherence to Him close to the vest. And St. Paul converted. Had he been a staunch “conservative” before his conversion, he would not have thrown his lot in with foreign imperialists, as he did, chasing around the known world persecuting Christians. He would have been a nice Jewish boy studying Torah when not doing some other honest and honorable thing for a living. Nice try with that one, though. 🙂

And how do you know any of the Jews who followed Jesus after His death were any of the ones whom He called “whitened sepulchers”? You actually don’t, of course.
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Well, Saul was a scholar of the Torah, and a staunch conservative who prosecuted Christians, for the Sanhedrin. His record of arresting Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, is undisputed.

Pharisees converted to Christianity?

You think none did?

What about Nicodemus?

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Well, Saul was a scholar of the Torah, and a staunch conservative who prosecuted Christians, for the Sanhedrin. His record of arresting Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, is undisputed.

Pharisees converted to Christianity?

You think none did?

What about Nicodemus?

Jim
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Was Nicodemus one of the Pharisees whom Jesus likened to a “whitened sepulcher”? Show us where He did, if He did. Chapter and verse. Never did I say that Jesus condemned all Pharisees. He condemned those who paid lip service to fidelity to their avowed religious tenets yet violated them in actual practice.

In persecuting Christians, Saul was hardly a “conservative” in the modern American sense of the term. He was a roving firebrand, a Trotsky, and an ally of a foreign power. “Conservative” Jews thought canoodling with pagan Rome was anathema, yet Saul was a Roman citizen.

Who is persecuting Christians in our own place and time? Certainly not “conservatives”.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you
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–Did you forget that Jesus also threw the moneychangers out of the Temple?

–How about the work of mercy where we must admonish the sinner?

Look, we can all throw quotes around to suit both sides of this discussion. It simply boils down to being a judgement call (a “prudential” matter) and in that respect we have every right to hold to the view that the Cardinal chose wrongly on this particular matter.
Unfortunately, that seems to get some people all worked up and they come out swinging.
 
surritter said:
–Did you forget that Jesus also threw the moneychangers out of the Temple?

–How about the work of mercy where we must admonish the sinner?

Look, we can all throw quotes around to suit both sides of this discussion. It simply boils down to being a judgement call (a “prudential” matter) and in that respect we have every right to hold to the view that the Cardinal chose wrongly on this particular matter.
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Yes, JESUS threw the moneychangers our of the Temple. He will judge us all one day.

He taught us to love our enemies, and do good to them.

Open to corrections, if you want to show me where we were to exclude anyone with the unconditional love He taught us to have?

Also, please show me where Christ taught us to go against those that sat on the seat of Moses…errr, Peter? 😉
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Yes, JESUS threw the moneychangers our of the Temple. He will judge us all one day.

He taught us to love our enemies, and do good to them.

Open to corrections, if you want to show me where we were to exclude anyone with the unconditional love He taught us to have?

Also, please show me where Christ taught us to go against those that sat on the seat of Moses…errr, Peter? 😉
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Does Cardinal Dolan sit on the throne of Peter, and is the matter being discussed one of definitive Church teaching?

Uh, no.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Which scripture records Christ’s instructions to the multitude to admonish the sinner?
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Surely if you are a Catholic you know that we don’t adhere to “sola scriptura.” We hold to everything that Mother Church teaches.😉
 
surritter said:
Does Cardinal Dolan sit on the throne of Peter, and is the matter being discussed one of definitive Church teaching?

Uh, no.
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He evidently has the Pope’s approval. He was elevated to Cardinal after discussing Church doctrine with Obama.

Did you read the response from Cardinal Dolan yet?
 
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