Confiteor and Roman Canon are fading out of use

[phil19034]

You need to get out to Chesco and Wilmington more.

ahhh, if I go to the Cathedral, they do them there. But it seems like in Montgomery County and some parishes in the Northwest part of the city almost never do them.

Just one of several reasons why I’m slowly starting to attend the new FSSP parish in Conshohocken more and more.

 

[Convert3]

We don’t see it often, but if we have a visiting priest it’s not unusual.

 

[Prodigal1984]

He said because the they are both longer.

That is horrifying to say the least.

 

[Prodigal1984]

I can literally count on one hand how many times I’ve heard my pastor use the Confiteor in 6 years, and I’ve never heard him do the Roman Canon.

It is sad. Like I’ve been saying, I am not promoting here a Roman Canon only kind of thing. But there are four Eucharistic Prayers in the OF Missal; plus two Reconciliation ones and three Various needs ones. That’s literally nine Prayers; and only hearing EP2 and the answer you get is because it is the shortest is truly saddening. Like last week we had no music and I said to my priest because I was lecturing, good week to use Roman Canon. He said, yah that is true. Still used EP2

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I want to go there. It took me some months to figure out where they post their bulletins with schedules as they are not on the church webpage, nor are they on the old TLM Philly page (which seems to be years out of date). I finally found them posted as photos on some Facebook page.

 

[Prodigal1984]

I don’t know of any churches in my diocese, at least the ones I’ve been too( which is a good number) that don’t have air conditioning. In fact a couple churches in my area parishioners complain the AC is to high and they wear more layers. It is true but I think they are overreacting.
Plus this luxury is new. Most of Church history there was no AC and people still would go to mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Most of Church history there was no AC and people still would go to mass.

True. And more people walked to Church. A lot of fans, shorter sermons, earlier Masses, fewer at the Communion rail, made it somewhat bearable.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Most of Church history there was no AC and people still would go to mass.

Older church buildings did not hold heat like newer construction. Same for old houses, old apartments etc. This is why schools and so forth now must close if there’s no AC, when I myself attended schools that had no AC.

Also, in olden days Mass would often be very early in the morning because of the need to fast from midnight until Communion, so the day hadn’t had a chance to heat up yet. It’s likely that some people still suffered in extreme weather. Ven. Augustine Tolton allegedly died of heat stroke, though it happened on the street, not in church.

 

[Prodigal1984]

This is why schools and so forth now must close if there’s no AC, when I myself attended schools that had no AC.

Really it is a requirement now? I graduated high school in 2002; which is a while back but not to long; and we didn’t have AC; certain rooms did like administration but the classrooms, no; it was pretty miserable in there in the beginning and end of the school year.

 

[whatistrue]

Really it is a requirement now?

In the sense that more recent construction methods and standards result in a closer to airtight building, which requires mechanical as opposed to natural ventilation, then yes it is. For example, how many outside windows in recently built schools can be opened at all?

Edit to add: You graduated in 2002 - when was the school built?

 

[Prodigal1984]

when was the school built?

1. My mom actually graduated from there the year it opened.

 

[whatistrue]

Depending on the area, many schools built in that period are being retired. And one reason is that it costs more to heat and cool (if cooling is even installed). Partly because they are not as airtight.

 

[tafan2]

schools built in the timeframe of 1970 are being replaced? So does that mean we wait about 5 years and we can hope to see Catholic Church’s being built from 75 onward to be slowly replaced? We can only hope.

 

[whatistrue]

Personally I don’t look at the date on the cornerstone but rather the structure itself. Not all churches built in that period are eyesores.

That being said, school boards sometimes have more available cash than Catholic dioceses. Of course when you can just tax your residents (usually with voter approval for a bond issue) rather than beg for donations…

 

[tafan2]

It was said in jest. But like most jokes, it certainly had a large kernel of seriousness.

Not all churches built in that period are eyesores.

I can agree with this. I know of one Church built in the early 70s around here that I thought was hopeless. It is in a wealthy parish. They spent several million dollars gutting it and redoing the inside. It is now quite beautiful. It actually proves that modern architecture for Churches can work. Sadly, until about 15-20 years ago, it hardly ever did. We have had several Churches built in our dioceses in the last 20 years. Most of them are at least fairly well done, three or four are really beautiful. As more than one pastor told me, people just were fed up with it and made it clear that if they did not get a “Catholic” church, they were not going to support the project. Our parish built a new Church and had a similar response.

There is a Church that was built in 1990 that is truly horrible in my opinion. It too is in a nice part of town. They had an ongoing debate in their parish for the last several years: a) its fine, leave it alone b) lets just tear it down and start another and c) lets do what St XYZ did and fix it. Group a was largely older people, 65+. Group B was dominated by the younger generation with families. Group C was middle age and folks in their 50s. They decided on C. I am really interested in how it turns out, because I had assumed it was hopeless. But I know the architects working on it, and they are quite good. So we shall see.

Another parish that was also built in the early 90s, with a rather conservative pastor at that time, was done decently. The basic form and structure is good. But lots of little mistakes that were prevelant at that time. They are also in the process of fixing that Church. I have high hopes for how it will turn out.

Sorry for the thread drift. So I will quit on the Church architecture bit.

 

[Gorgias]

I did misspeak slightly; it’s the oldest one in the Roman Rite.

I’m not certain that I’d even grant that assertion, unless what you mean by it is merely that, as a whole, it’s been used since the sixth century; and moreover, the analysis is more than mere comparison of anaphorae.

However, it does appear that EP1 is older than EP3.

Hmm… let’s look at your assertions…

Feel free to post a source if you have one saying otherwise.

Gladly! Thanks!

Right now, I’m looking at Msgr Irwin’s “Models of the Eucharist”. He does assert that “[p]ride of place in terms of the Western liturgical tradition goes to the Roman Canon.” Notwithstanding this assertion, though, he continues:

The second eucharistic prayer in use in the present Roman rite … dates from the earliest period of the Western liturgical tradition and is often ascribed to the third-century author Hippolytus of Rome."

and, with respect to EP3:

The inspiration for the third eucharistic prayer is a composite of non-Roman sources.

the Egyptian anaphora of St Basil… is one of the earliest surviving eucharistic prayers… It also serves as a basis for the third eucharistic prayer in the present Roman rite. … It is regarded as being one of the earliest surviving eucharistic prayers, and thus is comparable to the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus in terms of antiquity.

Finally, with respect to the Roman Canon, he states:

the fact that the Roman Canon has been the single eucharistic prayer prayed in Western Catholicism since the fifth century

So… if the Roman Canon dates from the fifth century, and the sources for EP3 date from the same timeframe as Hippolytus (i.e., the third century), then… which one is the more ancient, and which less so?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Perhaps you should edit the Wiki article then to show there are some different viewpoints on this, especially since this part of it is not currently well sourced.

Just had a Confiteor at daily Mass.

 

[maryjk]

I use the Confiteor daily and the Roman Canon about a third of the time. Not fading out where I’m at.

-Fr ACEGC

I’d ask if you were at our parish, but we just switched pastors and we have a new associate every two years.

Both are used pretty regularly at our parish.

 

[tafan2]

Yes, but that whole argument assumes the Roman Canon was written at once and was not a composite of other sources in the 6th century. Which, if the Church wrote EP3 in the 20th century and based it on a composite of other eucharistic prayers, why would you not assume in the 6th century the same was done? Indeed, as I mentioned above, it was. I looked it up last night. A large part of the Roman Canon came from the Eastern Liturgy of St James, which we have going back to the third century.

ETA: the end result of all of this is that the EP1 goes back to the 6yth century and was a composite of prayers dating to the third century. EP2 is a composite of a 3rd century prayer and the Roman Canon. EP3 is from the 20th century which is a composite of Eastern prayers, some of which go back to antiquity also. So, if one applies a consistent analysis, one can simply not make the statement:

You’d be surprised, then, to learn that it’s (EP1) not the oldest. EP3, I believe, is the one with the elements that are the oldest.

In its entirety, EP1 is certainly the oldest. As to their sources, they are all ancient.

 

[Gorgias]

Perhaps you should edit the Wiki article then to show there are some different viewpoints on this, especially since this part of it is not currently well sourced.

I’ve edited some Wiki pages. It wasn’t an altogether pleasant experience. (It’s all too easy to get mired in a “yes, it is” / “no, it ain’t” death spiral.)

So, I’d rather just remind folks what Wiki is and what it isn’t, and then stick to more reputable sources…

Yes, but that whole argument assumes the Roman Canon was written at once and was not a composite of other sources in the 6th century.

It really doesn’t. But, there’s a whole lot more detail here than has been discussed here. So, when we look at the western sources upon which the Roman Canon are based, and the sources (including eastern sources) upon which other EP’s are based, we really can’t say that the Roman Canon is more ancient than others. All we can say is that it’s been being used in the west for many centuries, in a form not unlike the current form.

Which, if the Church wrote EP3 in the 20th century and based it on a composite of other eucharistic prayers, why would you not assume in the 6th century the same was done?

Well… because that’s quite an assumption.

Yet, it’s a good approach. And what it tells us is that, if we want to make the claim that one EP is “better” than the others, then we might want to re-think our biases.

In its entirety, EP1 is certainly the oldest.

Yeah. 'Cause what people mean, when they point to EP1, is “in its entirety.” That’s not at all what people are trying to sell, when they claim “EP1-onlyism”…