Confiteor and Roman Canon are fading out of use

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Wiki’s actually pretty reputable to the extent that people like you and me make it reputable. I don’t spend much time there any more and I agree it is a “you get no pay nor thanks” sort of job. But it’s worth the effort. If somebody else objects, which they usually don’t when you have a decent source, it’s easy enough to put it back to the way you have it if you have a source, unless it’s one of those cases where some editor is so married to the article you have to basically wait for them to die to make any change. Fortunately that is rare.

Wiki when done right is basically a signpost to good sources.
 
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Gorgias said:
Yeah. 'Cause what people mean, when they point to EP1, is “in its entirety.” That’s not at all what people are trying to sell, when they claim “EP1-onlyism”
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Selective quoting. I was not trying to sell EP1-onlyism. I was just disputing your claim that EP3 was older. As I said immediately after your quote: As to their sources, they are all ancient.
 
Wikipedia is a wonderful resource for casual research. Of course you can’t use it for formal research but yes it is great. A lot of the articles are basically just the same as the New World Encyclopedia to I notice.
The only articles to be weary of for the most part are people or events in the news in the public eye; those tend to he distorted by people. But the site also makes editing these ones more difficult. For the most part everything needs to be cited otherwise it can be removed.
 
tafan2 said:
Selective quoting. I was not trying to sell EP1-onlyism.
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Didn’t say you were. Just asserting that when the vast majority of folks who make claims about EP1 speak, they’re doing so in the context of EP1-onlyism. 😉
 
My position has been clear. Around here, the Roman Canon seems to be rarely used, and I think that is a mistake. But, even among very conservative Catholics, I hear absolutely no complaints. I wish we had some “EP1-onlyism” around here just to balance things out a little bit.

At anyrate, my historical analysis is clear with regards to EP1,2, and 3. Its really impossible to say which is oldest if one is talking about its components. They all have elements dating from at least the 3rd century. As to which is oldest in its entirety, that is clear also, EP1.
 
And what about EP 4? Is that based on something older or just new?
 
Prodigal1984 said:
I don’t know of any churches in my diocese, at least the ones I’ve been too( which is a good number) that don’t have air conditioning.
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perhaps I live in a poorer diocese. Only the big city churches have air conditioning. But in the interest of health and safety our priest keeps things short on really hot Sundays.
 
tafan2 said:
schools built in the timeframe of 1970 are being replaced?
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our public school was opened in 1974. It was an energy hog. It was torn down three years ago and a new building built. Two neighboring towns also rebuilt their school buildings in the last 5 years which were built in the 60s and 70s. Anything built before the first fuel crisis wasn’t built with energy efficiency in mind. Not to mention the changes in technology for electrical systems.
 
vsedriver said:
Anything built before the first fuel crisis wasn’t built with energy efficiency in mind. Not to mention the changes in technology for electrical systems.
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Both of those are huge expenses in retro-fitting buildings these days. The third major expense is asbestos remediation. The cost to tear down and start over can be far less than remodeling to bring buildings up to standards.
 
Stuff built in the 1970s wasn’t built to last or built for retrofitting.

At least one Catholic church near here that had a new church built around the 1970s already tore it down and replaced it a few years ago. The bell tower is the only thing kept from the old church, which had grown too small to accommodate the new development of the community, and likely had all the problems vsedriver mentioned as well.
 
Glennon_P said:
The cost to tear down and start over can be far less than remodeling to bring buildings up to standards
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this is true and now they are going after lead. Our Catholic School was built over 100 years ago. I’m pretty sure there are coats of lead paint all over the building. But we are too small and poor to tear it down and rebuild.
 
They abbey that you have visited, uses all 4 EPs on a regular basis. If the saint is mentioned in the canon, for a memorial or feast, EP 1 is always used. My favourite is EP IV. So since it’s where I usually attend Mass, I get to hear them all.

The Confiteor is rarely used at Mass; but that’s because the monks use it every night at Compline. Since the Mass is a conventual Mass, the liturgy is adapted to their needs.
Prodigal1984 said:
It is sort of a myth that using it is saving much time. Maybe two minutes.
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When you’re suffering from sciatica, as I was last year, those two extra minutes of standing were pure torture. Sometimes during the Roman Canon I had to sit.
 
You kneel for most of it so I don’t understand. Why do you stand during the EP?
 
Seriously?
I have never in my life heard of this.
This is not in the rubrics. You kneel after the sanctus until the great amen and then again from after the agnus dei until the closing prayer.

One thing I like about the EF is you kneel most of the time. It is reverence.
 
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Prodigal1984 said:
Seriously?
I have never in my life heard of this.
This is not in the rubrics. You kneel after the sanctus until the great amen and then again from after the agnus dei until the closing prayer.

One thing I like about the EF is you kneel most of the time. It is reverence.
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This is an adaptation the US requested. The universal GIRM only has us kneeling at the Consecration. In Canada it varies by diocese and even by parish. My parish kneels from the Epiclesis to the AMEN, but many parishes only kneel from the Epiclesis to the Mystery of Faith. Some only kneel from the end of the Epiclesis to the Mystery of Faith. Not many kneel after the Agnus Dei.
 
Well, as noted, there are rubrics, and then there are rubrics. As noted, some of the rubrics in the US differ from the universal rubrics, which likely have been adapted in various countries.

As to kneeling, your comment is about a feeling; reverence has a whole lot more to do with inner disposition than it does a posture specific position. As a point, we stand for the Gospel - why? Because of reverence. And just because something was done “that way before” doe not make it more reverent, or less so than how we do it now.

As a side point, our diocese used to stand from the Agnus Dei until returning to our pew after reception. The point was never particularly well explained, but it did have some reasoning behind it. To wit: we were in procession to receive Communion; and if you note other processions, when they start. all who are processing are standing; they do not trickle out one by one. It is a permitted posture; however the Archdiocese of Portland recently revised it back to kneeling after the Agnus Dei, as, according to the Archbishop, “the majority of dioceses do it that way”.

Both postures have validity and both are within the guidelines, one or the other an allowed adaption.
 
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