Conflict In The Middle East

[OneSheep]

If you were president, and Iran killed yet another American (Soleimani is reported to be responsible for over 600 American deaths), what is your response?

First of all, the claim about the 600 deaths is addressed here:

There’s No Evidence Iran Is Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Americans

The assertions being repeated today seem based on apparently groundless claims from twelve years ago to justify the war in Iraq.

progressive.org

Stephen Zunes is a respected faculty member and researcher from a local Catholic University, USF

My response, as president, would have been preventative, in that as president my State Dept would be in conversation, negotiating with the Iranians and the Iraqi government so that the back and forth violence would have not started in the first place. Our state department has followed Israel’s lead, being averse to diplomacy with the Iranians. This is a huge error.

We have no business being in Iraq, we never should have been there in the first place.

 

[KMC]

KMC:

If you were president, and Iran killed yet another American (Soleimani is reported to be responsible for over 600 American deaths), what is your response?

First of all, the claim about the 600 deaths is addressed here:

There’s No Evidence Iran Is Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Americans - Progressive.org

Stephen Zunes is a respected faculty member and researcher from a local Catholic University, USF

My response, as president, would have been preventative, in that as president my State Dept would be in conversation, negotiating with the Iranians and the Iraqi government so that the back and forth violence would have not started in the first place. Our state department has followed Israel’s lead, being averse to diplomacy with the Iranians. This is a huge error.

We have no business being in Iraq, we never should have been there in the first place.

1. There are others sources who claim otherwise, like the Pentagon
   Pentagon says Qassem Soleimani was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of American soldiers
2. You did not answer my question. What specifically would you do if Iran is responsible for killing another American? I appreciate you wanting to be preventative…but that is not an answer to my question.

 

[KMC]

Our state department has followed Israel’s lead, being averse to diplomacy with the Iranians. This is a huge error.

So, if you were the president of Israel, how do you go about diplomacy with a country that denies your right to exist? A country whose leaders have called for the genocide of Jews? Please read the attached article which has relevant quotes from Iran’s leadership over the last 20 years.

The Iranian Regime on Israel's Right to Exist

The foreign minister says his country is friendly to Jews. But his country seeks the elimination of the country in which nearly half the world's Jews live.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[OneSheep]

There are others sources who claim otherwise, like the Pentagon

Because the Pentagon now has Trump people in charge, it is not a valid source. Here is a very important analysis from a former Bush admin. official:

Former Top Bush Official: I Saw the March to War in 2003. I’m Seeing the Same Thing with Iran Now

We look at the Trump administration’s assassination of Iran’s top military commander Qassem Soleimani with Lawrence Wilkerson, a retired United States Army colonel who served as Secretary of State Colin Powell’s chief of staff from 2002 to 2005. On February 5, 2003, he watched as Powell made the...

www.democracynow.org

You did not answer my question. What specifically would you do if Iran is responsible for killing another American? I appreciate you wanting to be preventative…but that is not an answer to my question.

I would have my State Dept contact the Iraqi leadership about resolving the ongoing conflict. I would also have them contact Iranian leadership. We are not to take revenge, that is against Gospel values. An eye for an eye, and the whole world ends up blind.

So, if you were the president of Israel, how do you go about diplomacy with a country that denies your right to exist?

I would begin by acknowledging that Iran has a legitimate grievance with the state of Israel, but say that Israel is here to stay. Then I would begin negotiating on how the Palestinian state can exist, unoccupied, beside Israel.

We have spent 5 trillion dollars on the “war on terror” which is a war largely based on Arab and Iranian grievances concerning Palestine. The US could have bought off the entire Israeli settlements many times over with such money.

If we approach people who hate us with understanding and forgiveness, that is what sets the tone of the conversation. Jesus calls us to set such a tone.

 

[KMC]

Because the Pentagon now has Trump people in charge, it is not a valid source.

So career members of the military are NOT valid sources? OK…but, the pentagon is not the only source making counter claims. I don’t agree with Pence’s statement about Iran’s involvement with 9/11, but Iran is fighting a proxy war against us. I’ve heard enough experts who agree on that topics

We are not to take revenge, that is against Gospel values. An eye for an eye, and the whole world ends up blind.

But we are allowed to defend ourselves.

I would begin by acknowledging that Iran has a legitimate grievance with the state of Israel, but say that Israel is here to stay. Then I would begin negotiating on how the Palestinian state can exist, unoccupied, beside Israel.

Iran’s grievance: Israel exists. So…is that a legitimate grievance?
Palestine: Rejected a two-state solution…but that is really irrelevant to Iran’s desire to commit genocide.
Some people just can’t be trusted…especially those who are quite vocal about killing you, your children, your country, your race.

 

[Victoria33]

Because the Pentagon now has Trump people in charge, it is not a valid source. Here is a very important analysis from a former Bush admin. official:

Likewise though, your sources do not seem credible, your point of view is similar to what I’d hear from Radio Havana or from Venezuela or even Russia and the Iranian regime has largely shown the world what they are by publicly gunning down over a thousand protesters, right in everyone’s view. So, this is kind of an anti-US line. Yes, we in turn, do do plenty wrong. Still, saying something like we’d go after Soleimani because we are fighting Israel’s war. Many people would find that far-fetched.

 

[OneSheep]

But we are allowed to defend ourselves.

Assassinations are either murder or acts of war. Soleimani was planning attacks, just as our military was planning plenty of attacks. If killing people who plan attacks is considered “defense” then the Iranians could be justified in murdering our President and leaders in the Pentagon.

If you like, I can post the sections of the CCC that clearly show that the killing of Soleimani violates just war doctrine. If nothing else, war is always the last resort, but there were plenty of other remedies in this case.

Iran’s grievance: Israel exists. So…is that a legitimate grievance?

That’s not their core grievance. Their grievance is that fellow Muslim people were pushed out of their homes and properties and were not allowed to return to where they were born. In addition, lands and resources are confiscated on an ongoing basis. These are grievances that are recognized by the entire world, except for Israel and the lobbyist-controlled US.

Palestine: Rejected a two-state solution

This is false. They have always been amenable to a just solution, such as the Camp David Accords.

that is really irrelevant to Iran’s desire to commit genocide

The desire, when it happens, can be resolved. Resolution begins with understanding and forgiveness; it begins with dialog. There are plenty of people in Israel who would also favor genocide of their enemies. It’s a psychology of hate, all of us are capable.

Some people just can’t be trusted…especially those who are quite vocal about killing you, your children, your country, your race.

I will agree that trust can’t be forced, and there will be people that a person may never trust. However, all people can be trusted to some extent, but it takes time, sometimes a lifetime. People eventually come to realize that they can benefit from a good relationship. Trust is “step 2”, a step that may never occur in a lifetime. What can occur is “step 1”, which is understanding, forgiveness, reconciliation.

Jesus calls us to love our enemies, to pray for those who persecute us. Jesus guides us to real, permanent resolution. I have hated, and I do no longer. If I can overcome my hatred, then so can everyone else!

 

[OneSheep]

So, this is kind of an anti-US line.

Are you saying that Lawrence Wilkerson was pushing an anti-US line?

Yes, we in turn, do do plenty wrong.

I’m glad you have the objectivity to acknowledge that. Iran is certainly also guilty of doing wrong.

Still, saying something like we’d go after Soleimani because we are fighting Israel’s war. Many people would find that far-fetched.

We have no grievance against Iran. Together with Iran, we defeated ISIS; Iran was a crucial partner in this. We had been part of a nuclear deal which was a great start toward bringing our nations together, but extremist Israeli leadership, and AIPAC, opposed the deal.

What is our grievance against Iran, if not that they are a threat to Israel? Why did we attack Iraq in the first place, if it was not because Saddam Hussein, and wealthy Palestinian refugees in Iraq, were funding the intifada?

Victoria, to say US action over there is about oil or power is a serious hit against the character of George Bush, Dick Cheney, John Bolton, and all those involved in the attack on Iraq (okay, I did not mean to say that you were asserting the oil or power part, it is the common understanding). We know it had nothing to do with “weapons of mass destruction”. No, our nation’s leaders sent our military over there to protect the lives of Israelis, which is a means that can be justified in the minds of caring people. Bush, Cheney and Bolton are not psychopaths, they are not willing to waste the lives soldiers on oil. What is unfortunate is that those caring people were unwilling to resolve the problem with Saddam through diplomacy. They were operating with a military mindset, not a Christian mindset.

 

[Victoria33]

Are you saying that Lawrence Wilkerson was pushing an anti-US line?

Hardly, maybe in some aspects Democracy Now is. Besides, you seem to reject US Military statements so as to how bad Soleimani is. Soleimani likely helps the Assad regime create great chaos and suffering in Syria. I’d say it is a Christian duty to help out our fellow man, all we seem to hear is “anti-interventionist” talk but there is more too it.

I’m glad you have the objectivity to acknowledge that. Iran is certainly also guilty of doing wrong.

Again, wrongdoers, it be the USA or Iran, it should be pointed out, Syria has produced, what? At least 7 million displaced persons from the side, Soleimani is on.

We have no grievance against Iran. Together with Iran, we defeated ISIS; Iran was a crucial partner in this. We had been part of a nuclear deal which was a great start toward bringing our nations together, but extremist Israeli leadership, and AIPAC, opposed the deal.

What is our grievance against Iran, if not that they are a threat to Israel? Why did we attack Iraq in the first place, if it was not because Saddam Hussein, and wealthy Palestinian refugees in Iraq, were funding the intifada?

Victoria, to say US action over there is about oil or power is a serious hit against the character of George Bush, Dick Cheney, John Bolton, and all those involved in the attack on Iraq (okay, I did not mean to say that you were asserting the oil or power part, it is the common understanding). We know it had nothing to do with “weapons of mass destruction”. No, our nation’s leaders sent our military over there to protect the lives of Israelis, which is a means that can be justified in the minds of caring people. Bush, Cheney and Bolton are not psychopaths, they are not willing to waste the lives soldiers on oil. What is unfortunate is that those caring people were unwilling to resolve the problem with Saddam through diplomacy. They were operating with a military mindset, not a Christian mindset.

See, these ideas seem to help out the great repression of the Iranian regime.

600 soldiers killed, many others maimed. I’ve heard this for years. It was those special IEDs Soleimani developed.

 

[OneSheep]

Besides, you seem to reject US Military statements so as to how bad Soleimani is

600 soldiers killed, many others maimed. I’ve heard this for years. It was those special IEDs Soleimani developed.

Victoria, did you read the article by Stephen Zunes and the interview of Lawrence Wilkerson? Which parts do you disagree with? 600 people killed by Iraqi militants - read the article. I’m sure there was blood on Soleimani’s hands just as there is blood on the hands of our own military leaders. Obama approving of drone strikes - blood on his hands too. None of these are “bad people”. They intend to protect their own or those they care about.

Punishment is not a justification for war. There are plenty of other means to punish, legal means.

See, these ideas seem to help out the great repression of the Iranian regime.

Iran wasn’t even in the picture when the US attacked Iraq. Iran and Iraq had a long history of animosity, they had the “great war” against each other where hundreds of thousands were killed. In that war, the US was truly the “great satan” as we (and Israel) helped both sides.

Officially, the United States remained neutral during the war that broke out in 1980 after Iraq invaded Iran, but, in reality, it was arming both sides. Shortly after taking office in 1981, the Reagan administration secretly worked with Israel to ship several billion dollars of American weapons to Iran, despite the U.S. embargo against such sales. Then in 1982, when the CIA warned Reagan that Iraq was on the verge of being beaten on the battlefield by Iran, the U.S. government secretly provided Iraq with highly classified intelligence, including on Iranian troop movements, and covertly shipped American weapons to Iraq. Basically, the United States was arming both sides so that neither side would dominate this key oil region.

Medea Benjamin, the author of the above, is a balanced expert on situations in the Middle East. I don’t see how Israel would be concerned about arming both sides, other than that there is less security danger when two of its enemies are fighting each other. Israel’s concern was not oil, and American politics was already quite beholden to AIPAC, even though oil was of at least a minor concern.

How the U.S. and Iran Got to This Tense Moment - Truthdig

Iran has become the primary target of American antagonism, when Saudi Arabia, an even more repressive regime, remains a close ally.

www.truthdig.com

My “ideas” give the benefit of the doubt to those US leaders who brought us to war. The same can be said for Trump. He is putting American soldiers in danger to seemingly protect Israeli lives, not oil, and that is a worthy intent. The war is unjust, but the intent is still good.

 

[OneSheep]

I hope you have time to either listen to this interview or read the transcript.

Juan Cole brings up a very important question, did the US (Trump admin) want to stop Iran-Saudi attempts to deescalate that conflict?

Juan Cole: U.S.-Iran Conflict Enters Unprecedented Territory with Assassinations & Military Attacks

Iran’s retaliatory missile strikes on bases in Iraq housing U.S. troops, following the U.S. assassination of top Iranian general Qassem Soleimani, have dramatically raised tensions in the Middle East. Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei called the missile strike a “slap in the face” of the...

www.democracynow.org

 

[Victoria33]

I am the one who said I read Democracy Now and many other sources to begin with. I have seen a lot of this.

 

[mrad25]

There’s also Iran’s history of terrorism against the US dating back to 1979 with the seizure of our embassy in Tehran and the detention of dozens of U.S. diplomats for more than a year. Then in 1983 in Lebanon, with Iran’s murder of 17 Americans at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, and the October 1983 the slaughter of 241 U.S. peacekeepers as they slept in their barracks. Iran’s gripe with these public servants? They served a multisectarian cause that obstructed Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s subjugation of the Lebanese people. In 1996, Iranian agents attacked a U.S. military barracks in Saudi Arabia, killing 19 Americans who had been working to maintain a no-fly zone against Iran’s nemesis, Saddam Hussein.

And here’s just a small sample of Iran and Soleimanis recent terrorism against the US:

• 2006 to 2009 Soleimani’s Quds Force deployed explosively formed penetrator shells to Shiite militias in Iraq. These weapons killed hundreds of Americans and maimed thousands more.
• Quds Force attack in 2007 saw four Americans kidnapped from a meeting with Iraqi officials in Karbala and executed while in handcuffs. In Afghanistan, Iran provided weapons and logistics support to various insurgent groups, including the Taliban.
• 2011 - Iran attempted to blow up civilians in our nation’s capital. In 2011, under the direction of Soleimani, the Quds Force plotted to blow up the Saudi ambassador at Washington, D.C.'s Cafe Milano restaurant. When the operations agent responsible for carrying out the attack told his Quds handler that the explosion might kill one hundred diners, he was told: “F— 'em.”

Not to mention the attacks against the people in Syria, and Iran starving Sunni-dominated settlements. And In Lebanon, with their Hezbollah ally the bombing of dozens of patriots opposed to Tehran’s interference. The list of victims includes many security officials and the former Prime Minister Rafic Hariri. And in Yemen, Iran has helped fuel the civil war by supporting Houthi extremists.

Inside the Plot by Iran’s Soleimani to Attack US Forces in Iraq: Reuters

www.theepochtimes.com

Iran and Russia want dominance in the Middle East. It’s not hard to see. They would like nothing better than to gain control in Iraq and of their oil as well. I laugh when they tell us to get out but yet Iraq voted us to be there. Did Iraq vote for Iran to be there? Don’t think they did…

 

[YHWH_Christ]

I never said this was the end of days.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

I never said this was the end of days.

I asked a different question