Conflicted Mormon

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Tweedle_Dee said:
The teacher used the word “feelings” but meant it as “feeling the spirit”. I was a little upset because of the downplaying of knowledge.
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With all due respect, I think you and others here are engaging in a bit of hair splitting. I highly doubt that your Gospel Doctrine teacher was actually downplaying knowledge for the sake of raw emotion. It’s possible, and I wasn’t there to get a feel for context so I can’t definitively say. But my own experience of knowledge V. feeling in Mormonism is a little more holistic and complementary.
I’ll bet 99% of Mormons have never heard that Joseph put his face into a hat to translate. I know my wife and I never heard that up until a few years ago.
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I agree. I didn’t know about it until I saw the South Park episode “All About the Mormons”. I immediately assumed that it was just a gross misunderstanding by the authors and went in pursuit of the facts. It was never brought up in Sunday School, Seminary, etc. so once I did find out I felt rather lied to. Granted, if one believes that Joseph Smith was given power by God himself to translate the Book of Mormon, I don’t think the manner in which the translation was performed really matters. If God indeed commissioned the translation, then Joseph Smith could have “saw” the words in a bowl of macaroni for all I care.
 
Tweedle_Dee said:
I’ve heard there are references to Mary adoration and the real presence in the writings of the early church fathers. Can anyone produce a good solid example? Earlier the better since we Mormons reject anything too late as being after the apostacy.
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There are lots of references in the Early Church Fathers, in early church hymns, paintings on the walls of early churches, etc. For brevity’s sake, I’ll only post a few. If you’d like more just send me a private message. I’d be more than happy to give you an exhaustive list.

For what it’s worth, all of these citations I learned in my “History of the Early Christian Church 33 CE - 350 CE” course at the notoriously secular University of California at Berkeley (hence the non-Christian convention for dating).

Mary:
  • “As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel’s speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’ obedience.” ~ Against Heresies, (3,19) 130 CE
  • “Eve was called the mother of the living …after the fall this title was given to her. True it is…the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve; but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all living.” ~ Justin Martyr c. 145 CE
  • “They blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever.” ~ The Protoevangelium of John 6:2, 150 CE
  • “Mary the virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaiden of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word.’ In contrast, Eve was disobedient. For she did not obey when she was still a virgin. Having become disobedient, she was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race. Correspondingly, Mary, who was also a virgin, by yielding obedience, became the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.” ~ Irenaeus c. 180 CE
  • “As it appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to still be a virgin.” ~ Clement of Alexandria c. 195 CE
  • “Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed.” ~ 3rd Century Hymn.
  • “Was anything, again, concealed from John, the Lord’s most beloved disciple, whom He commended to Mary as a son in His own place?” ~ Tertullian c. 197 CE
  • “For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon Himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which He wove for Himself, like a bridegroom, in the sufferings of the cross, in order that by uniting His own power with our moral body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man.” ~ Hippolytus c. 200 CE
  • "No one can understand the meaning of [the Gospel] unless he has lain on Jesus’ breast and from Jesus has received Mary to be his mother, too. Such a person must he become who is to be another John. For if Mary - as those say who extol her with sound mind - had no other son but Jesus, then He virtually said to Her, “Look! This is Jesus, whom you did bear.” ~ Origen c. 228 CE
  • “The parent of Your life - that unspotted grace and undefiled virgin - conceived in her womb without the aid of man, through a pure conception. She thus became suspected of having betrayed the marriage bed.” ~ Methodius c. 265 CE
  • “Mary, you are the vessel and tabernacle containing all mysteries. You know what the Patriarchs never knew; you have experienced what was never revealed to the Angels; you have heard what the Prophets never heard. In a word, all that was hidden from preceding generations was made known to you; even more, most of these wonders depended on you.” St. Gregory Thaumaturgus c. 270 CE
Eucharist:
  • 'I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life - which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God… And I desire the drink of God, manely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life." ~ Ignatius c. 105 CE
  • “They [the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ… Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death.” ~ Ignatius c. 105 CE
  • “To drink the blood of Jesus is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality. As wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the mixture of both - of the water and of the Word - is called the Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace. Those who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” ~ Clement of Alexandria c. 195 CE
  • “Christ is our Bread, because Christ is Life, and bread is life. He says, “I am the Bread of life.” Then too we find that His body is reckoned in bread: “This is my body.”” ~ Tertullian c. 198 CE
  • “Will not your [unbelieving] husband know what it is that you secretly taste before any food? And if he knows it to be bread, does he not believe it to be that which it is said to be?” ~ Tertullian c. 205 CE
  • “We also eat the bread presented to us. And this bread becomes by prayer a sacred body, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.” ~ Origin c. 230 CE
As a former Mormon, this one is very interesting:
  • “Those heresies employ bread and water in the oblation, not according to the canon of the church. For there are those heretics who celebrate the Eucharist with mere water!” ~ Clement of Alexandria c. 190 CE
 
dianaiad said:
The writer is clearly not interested in any ‘best information,’ or objective information.
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–Of course they are, and of course I am eager to spread the truth.

Mormons are not Christian.
Joe Smith and Bringem Young were no “prophets”.
Not one shred of evidence as to the claims of Joe Smith and his convoluted dreamed-up “religion” can be proven archaeologically or anthropologically.
They have every right to hoodwink folks in to their ‘religion’, and every right in these United States to practice their religion. However, they do not have the right to call themselves “Christian”.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.
What else do you need to know?

Every other truth on mormonism can easily be found HERE.

You know what really cracks me up?
The way Joe told the gullible mormons that you cannot drink beer or alcohol.
Meanwhile, good ‘ol flimflammin’ Joe drank alcohol and even had a Bar in his house! 😃
 
You can actually read the whole “Word of Wisdom”, section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, here:

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/89

Other interesting statements from it include:

-verse 8: wine or strong drink aren’t good, but only for assembling to offer up the sacraments to the Father. Of course, this doesn’t happen (section 27 earlier says it doesn’t matter what you eat or drink when you partake in the sacrament, as long as you remember that Jesus died and shed his blood for remission of sins), as they now use water instead of wine.

-verse 7: “strong drinks” (alcohol) are not for drinking, but for washing the body.

-verse 9: tobacco is not for the body or the stomach, but as an herb for bruises and sick cattle.

-verse 12: eat meat sparingly, but it is pleasing to Jesus that we only eat meat during winter, or when it’s cold, or during famine.
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
-verse 12: eat meat sparingly, but it is pleasing to Jesus that we only eat meat during winter, or when it’s cold, or during famine.
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I always found it interesting that the LDS leaders chose to enforce the prohibitions against alcohol and tobacco, but not the one against meat except in times of cold or famine. Guess they just could give up that porterhouse.

They also chose to interpret “hot drinks” as coffee and tea, though Joseph Smith never indicated that this was the intent of the revelation. In fact Joseph Smith had an extensive collection of imported teas that he frequently enjoyed, both before and after the revelation.
 
This is my story it is what it is. My father who was raised in the church converted to mormonism and forced me to be baptized into the lds. he died a year later and I never really beliving any of what the lds taught went looking for the truth. I studied and practiced every thing under the sun witchcraft,various pagan things,ritual magik,kabbala,satanism,yoga you get the point. Three years ago I decided to read the bible and see what god had to say for him self after reading it I decided to study what the r.c.church taught and found that all the conclutions I had come to on my own from reading the bible were the exact same as what the church teachs so I know without any dout that the R.C. Church has the TRUTH. I did go back and look at what the mormon church teaches and it is a mix of pagan, gnostic ideas and satanic philosphy with some bibical symbolism and morality to make it acceptable to those who do not know any better. While some of its teachings on morality are good and true it is in essense a church of satan that encourages people to place them selves above god and is therfore a “poisen fist in a suger glove”.
 
jpk1313 said:
This is my story it is what it is. My father who was raised in the church converted to mormonism and forced me to be baptized into the lds. he died a year later and I never really beliving any of what the lds taught went looking for the truth. I studied and practiced every thing under the sun witchcraft,various pagan things,ritual magik,kabbala,satanism,yoga you get the point. Three years ago I decided to read the bible and see what god had to say for him self after reading it I decided to study what the r.c.church taught and found that all the conclutions I had come to on my own from reading the bible were the exact same as what the church teachs so I know without any dout that the R.C. Church has the TRUTH. I did go back and look at what the mormon church teaches and it is a mix of pagan, gnostic ideas and satanic philosphy with some bibical symbolism and morality to make it acceptable to those who do not know any better. While some of its teachings on morality are good and true it is in essense a church of satan that encourages people to place them selves above god and is therfore a “poisen fist in a suger glove”.
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By George, I think you’ve got it! 👍
 
StLawrenceFan said:
–Of course they are, and of course I am eager to spread the truth.

Mormons are not Christian.
Joe Smith and Bringem Young were no “prophets”.
Not one shred of evidence as to the claims of Joe Smith and his convoluted dreamed-up “religion” can be proven archaeologically or anthropologically.
They have every right to hoodwink folks in to their ‘religion’, and every right in these United States to practice their religion. However, they do not have the right to call themselves “Christian”.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.
What else do you need to know?

Every other truth on mormonism can easily be found HERE.

You know what really cracks me up?
The way Joe told the gullible mormons that you cannot drink beer or alcohol.
Meanwhile, good ‘ol flimflammin’ Joe drank alcohol and even had a Bar in his house! 😃
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…and the trolls are out in force.
 
I was raised Baptist, half of my family is Jehovah’s witness, and I have studied religion and its enough to make you want to flush it all down the toil and know what is right and true. I personally dont think the bible teaches about external church denominations or does God want us to flee to any teachings of any other man than Christ. I was given life through the Word of God and God is a relational God who wants our total devotion which we freely give after understanding our sin and His perfection and awesomeness.

First I am not a Catholic or a Baptist or a Jehovah’s Witness or a Mormon but a follower of Christ who finds the most biblical church after searching the heart of God through His word. Once you get past the millions of external and contradicting religions and spend all that energy listening to God and opening up to Him you will begin and continually receive wisdom, faith, discernment, and all of those gifts from God who gives them.

So my advice as I understand the perspective your looking is dont search people or their ways to find who was or is right. Search the heart of God as David did. It is all about knowing Him and Him making Himself known to you.

The one true church is not of this world, it is the body of Christ that is made up of all the peoples of every tribe and tongue throughout all continents who intimately know and are know by God and born again of the Spirit.

So it seems we humans try to do things backwards by trying to get know God through some religion we think is right, but truth is we first get to know God personally through Jesus Christ and then we can receive discernment on what the most biblical church to get involoved with is whether Baptists or non-denominational or presbytarian or Catholic. I have much against the Jehovah’s witnesses and Mormons beliefs according to Scripture.

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses (context is forfathers- read Hebrews 11), let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run the endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.” Hebrews 12:1-2

may God Bless you in your search.

-Zach, zach_stacy@hotmail.com
 
PaulDupre said:
I always found it interesting that the LDS leaders chose to enforce the prohibitions against alcohol and tobacco, but not the one against meat except in times of cold or famine. Guess they just could give up that porterhouse.

They also chose to interpret “hot drinks” as coffee and tea, though Joseph Smith never indicated that this was the intent of the revelation. In fact Joseph Smith had an extensive collection of imported teas that he frequently enjoyed, both before and after the revelation.
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Paul, how many times has this been explained?

How many times have you, and others like you, ignored it and pretended that the actual facts supported your criticism? They do not, you realize that, right? I mean, you’ve been TOLD often enough.

The Word of Wisdom, as it is given in the Doctrine and Covenants, says this: 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—’

Please note: “not by commandment or constraint.”

The Word of Wisdom has never been a commandment. It has never been a requirement. Still isn’t.

What IS the “commandment and requirement” is the covenant promise we took upon ourselves regarding part of that; alcohol, tobacco, coffee and tea. It COULD have been a promise to jump over three sidewalk cracks on alternate Thursdays…but it was not. We took that word of wisdom, and made part of it a covenant promise.

Interestingly enough, Joseph Smith never made that promise; it was made decades after his murder.

It is about the promise, Paul, not about how evil drinking, smoking and guzzling coffee and tea may be.

I wish that you would stop ignoring that part. I really do.
 
dianaiad said:
…and the trolls are out in force.
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–Yes. They’ve been brainwashed and they’re out there on their bikes in their short-sleeved white shirts.

All I wanna know from them is where Planet Kolob is. You know, where joe smith said God was once a man and turned into a God.

Hilarious stuff.
 
StLawrenceFan said:
–Yes. They’ve been brainwashed and they’re out there on their bikes in their short-sleeved white shirts.

All I wanna know from them is where Planet Kolob is. You know, where joe smith said God was once a man and turned into a God.

Hilarious stuff.
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Indeed.

what religion is that?
 
PaulDupre said:
Joseph Smith and his jailmates had drunk two bottles of wine on the night he was killed by a mob at carthage jail.
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I didn’t know Joe had drunk that night, too.

He was shot while trying to escape from jail. It was the beer’s fault!😃
 
Galatians 1:8 might deal with Mormonism, Islam
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 
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dianaiad:
The Word of Wisdom has never been a commandment. It has never been a requirement. Still isn’t.
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It’s not that you voluntarily covenant not to partake of certain things, but that you are denied full participation in the church unless you abstain from those things. Sounds like a requirement to me.

If Jesus himself told me that alcohol and tobacco were not for human use, I would of course think it strange since Jesus drank alcohol every day since he was weened, but I would stop using them immediately. Also, if Jesus told me that meat should not be eaten except in times of cold or famine, you can bet that I would not be barbequeing chicken this labor day.

Why did Joseph keep on using these substances even after he claimed that Jesus himself told him he should not?

Probably the same reason Joseph tried to join the Methodists after Jesus told him not to join any church - because it never really happened and Joseph knew it.

Why do you think it a good think thing to eschew certain foods when Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:17-23)?
 
dianaiad said:
Indeed.

what religion is that?
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**Well, Mormon, of course. **

These are mormon teachings. (just a few). All the rest are HERE…
  • God was once a man like us.
  • God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
  • God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
  • God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
  • Jesus was married.
  • We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
Dang, I sure bet Joe drank a heck of a lot to get that creatively whacky.
 
PaulDupre said:
It’s not that you voluntarily covenant not to partake of certain things, but that you are denied full participation in the church unless you abstain from those things. Sounds like a requirement to me.

If Jesus himself told me that alcohol and tobacco were not for human use, I would of course think it strange since Jesus drank alcohol every day since he was weened, but I would stop using them immediately. Also, if Jesus told me that meat should not be eaten except in times of cold or famine, you can bet that I would not be barbequeing chicken this labor day.

Why did Joseph keep on using these substances even after he claimed that Jesus himself told him he should not?

Probably the same reason Joseph tried to join the Methodists after Jesus told him not to join any church - because it never really happened and Joseph knew it.

Why do you think it a good think thing to eschew certain foods when Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:17-23)?
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I’m more curious about the part where it says to use tobacco on bruises and all sick cattle, as well as using “strong drinks” (alcohol) to wash the body.

:rolleyes:
 
Say it ain’t so, Joe!

…"Smith concocted this Book of Mormon business as an outgrowth of his money-digging schemes. Even as successful as he was as a money-digger, it never paid much and he got in trouble with the law, so he fabricated the idea of the gold plates as the ultimate con. For him it meant the change from a poor and obscure life to fame, fortune, women, and power. The con worked so well that even today, 150-plus years later, he is adored and revered by 10 million people worldwide who are blind to the notion that Smith’s background was that of a con man."

So many interesting readings…HERE…
 
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