Conflicted Mormon

[ThuriferAcolyte]

One does not have to be married to receive Communion.

(Mormons believe you have to be married at least once in order to be exalted. Brigham Young taught that a man had to have more than one wife. Of course, this is now “opinion”.)

I wonder what the difference is between a sealing clearance and a sealing cancellation…

Interestingly, if a husband and wife are sealed and the wife dies, the husband can be sealed to another woman, as long as she isn’t sealed to someone else (a living woman can only be sealed to one husband). Hmmm, heavenly polygamy…

 

[dianaiad]

One does not have to be married to receive Communion.

(Mormons believe you have to be married at least once in order to be exalted. Brigham Young taught that a man had to have more than one wife. Of course, this is now “opinion”.)

Yes, we do believe that marriage is vital to our exaltations. “Neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man” and all that. It’s a twofer deal.

However, we also believe that it’s not something that MUST be done here and now, if one doesn’t find someone one can consider spending eternity with.

…and we don’t need to be married in order to take the Sacrament.

Now.

Would it be righteous of you to take communion if you, say, repented of everything…except that broken promise that didn’t seem so awful?

You keep trying to wiggle out of this. If you break a promise, don’t you have to repent of it before you can righteously take communion? Whether you confess it to a priest, take care of it in prayer yourself, or in a communal prayer for forgiveness during Mass?

SOMEWHERE this has to be addressed before you can take communion, right?

Therefore, broken promises are not a good thing in Catholicism, any more than they are in Mormonism. It is not my right to judge any promises you make, for any purpose, or to whom. Or Whom. It is not my right to decide for you that one of your promises is stupid and needless because of its nature, or why or when you made it. It’s a promise. You made it. You keep it, or you repent and then you keep it, if you can.

That’s the way promises work.

…and if you are expected to keep a promise like, oh…crawling five miles to a specific religious site in gratitude for a Saint stepping in and healing a child,(as the mother of one of my high school friends did) then you really do not need to be criticizing our promise to abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco.

No matter what you think of them, or us.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Now I think you can count, yes? Joseph was murdered in 1844…

–Actually he was shot whilst attempting to escape from jail. He was no prophet and he was certainly no martyr.

Kolob is a star, not a planet. God does not live there. Simple things like that are worth knowing if you want to mock people’s beliefs.

So where is Kolob? (some say it’s a planet or a star). Where exactly is it?

Is that where Mitt Romster wants to go to become a God? Sorry, but has anyone told him he’ll never be President and to think of becoming a God is blasphemy.

No one would really bother mormons if they’d simply drop the “Christian” charade. They are not Christians. How about “Smithians”? That’s got a realistic ring to it. They don’t even believe in the same Jesus of the Bible, nor do they comprehend or follow basic Christian Doctrine. Guess you didn’t visit those two sites I sent. I’ve got a ton of others if you’re interested.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, we do believe that marriage is vital to our exaltations. “Neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man” and all that. It’s a twofer deal.

However, we also believe that it’s not something that MUST be done here and now, if one doesn’t find someone one can consider spending eternity with.

…and we don’t need to be married in order to take the Sacrament.

Now.

Now you have moved to comparing Communion to Sacrament. What is the point again?

Would it be righteous of you to take communion if you, say, repented of everything…except that broken promise that didn’t seem so awful?

You keep trying to wiggle out of this. If you break a promise, don’t you have to repent of it before you can righteously take communion? Whether you confess it to a priest, take care of it in prayer yourself, or in a communal prayer for forgiveness during Mass?

SOMEWHERE this has to be addressed before you can take communion, right?

Therefore, broken promises are not a good thing in Catholicism, any more than they are in Mormonism. It is not my right to judge any promises you make, for any purpose, or to whom. Or Whom. It is not my right to decide for you that one of your promises is stupid and needless because of its nature, or why or when you made it. It’s a promise. You made it. You keep it, or you repent and then you keep it, if you can.

That’s the way promises work.

…and if you are expected to keep a promise like, oh…crawling five miles to a specific religious site in gratitude for a Saint stepping in and healing a child,(as the mother of one of my high school friends did) then you really do not need to be criticizing our promise to abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco.

No matter what you think of them, or us.

and?

I seem to have lost the purpose of all of this.

So, how is the new school year?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh yeah. Full participation.

You moved full participation from this life to the next. That was slick.

I can do that too. I fully anticipate full participation in the life of the Trinity. (Lord have mercy on my soul.)

 

[zaffiroborant]

But you DO need to be able to take communion…and I used that as an example, as well.

You realize that a great many Mormons do not make it to the Temple; one is too far away; they are too poor…they never get the opportunity. It doesn’t matter, though…they can have ‘full participation’ in everything we do, and all the blessings that are promised.

So there are a lot of LDS who are not endowed and have not been sealed for time and eternity?

 

[RebeccaJ]

So there are a lot of LDS who are not endowed and have not been sealed for time and eternity?

It is disingenuous to declare that full participation in mormonism does not include temple stuff.

This is so silly.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Getting back to the original topic, one of the things that I don’t like in Mormonism (I already mentioned this briefly earlier) is the nature of “callings”. In Mormonism, “a person must be called of God to serve in the Church”. Now, of course everyone agrees with this. It’s this part that I don’t agree with “these callings come as the Holy Ghost inspires presiding officers to issue them”. This may sound somewhat like Catholicism, where the cardinal bishops choose the next bishop of Rome, but this goes all the way down to the ward/branch level. The person that is getting the calling doesn’t even know about it until the calling is given to them. What are some of these callings that are assigned? They can be anything from the bishop himself, to boy scout leaders, the librarian, various teachers, secretaries, sports coaches, etc. Mormons talk a lot about how it’s all run by the laity, and yes, it is all run by the laity, who were assigned to various callings by someone else. In contrast, people in a Catholic parish volunteer for all positions. The Sunday School teachers, altar servers, organists, cantors and choir members, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, ushers, etc. all choose to be in whatever position they decide to be in. We both may believe that someone must be called to their position, but does God call us through someone else in all situations? In the Catholic Church, no. No one is telling you what to do.

My opinion.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

It is disingenuous to declare that full participation in mormonism does not include temple stuff.

This is so silly.

I agree. You aren’t fully participating in the religion if you aren’t doing those ordinances you need to become gods, full salvation.

 

[zaffiroborant]

It is disingenuous to declare that full participation in mormonism does not include temple stuff.

This is so silly.

I just found the idea that lots of LDS don’t make it to the temple startling. I can see many not participating in the proxy stuff but the idea that LDS members don’t go for their own endowment or sealing seems off the wall considering how much emphasis is placed on it.

What I find disingenuous is holding up the priesthood as full participation in the Catholic faith all the while ignoring the fact that all men and no women hold the priesthood in the LDS faith. If one demands that holding the priesthood is the qualification for full participation in the Catholic faith, and those that don’t hold it are not fully participating, well then… there is not a single LDS woman who participates fully in the LDS faith.

 

[why_me]

–Actually he was shot whilst attempting to escape from jail. He was no prophet and he was certainly no martyr.

Actually, no he was not shot trying to escape from jail. He was shot by a mob of men who stormed the prison and shot him and his brother Hyrum. Hyrum was the first to be shot and killed. Joseph attempted to defend himself and the other person in the prison with him, John Taylor who was also shot but survived. Joseph did try to escape out the window but the mob shot him in the back.

Please get your facts straight.

 

[why_me]

So there are a lot of LDS who are not endowed and have not been sealed for time and eternity?

There are actually many who do not hold even a temple recommend. Many have never been to the temple. Now I must say that most mormon marriages are sealed in the temple but it is not a requirement. Some do get married in the mormon church or chapel for time.

 

[dianaiad]

–Actually he was shot whilst attempting to escape from jail. He was no prophet and he was certainly no martyr.

So where is Kolob? (some say it’s a planet or a star). Where exactly is it?

It is a star. Nobody says it is a planet except people who get their information about Mormonism from anti-Mormon sources, and who do not pay attention to what Mormons actually tell them they believe. And we don’t know where it is.

Is that where Mitt Romster wants to go to become a God? Sorry, but has anyone told him he’ll never be President and to think of becoming a God is blasphemy.

You are a little behind the times. Obama won the election. Hello?

…but are you really telling me that you wouldn’t vote for Romney because he is a Mormon? Dang, man…I thought we got rid of that sort of idiocy when we elected Kennedy (a Catholic) or Nixon (a Quaker). (shrug)

No one would really bother mormons if they’d simply drop the “Christian” charade. They are not Christians

We think we are.

Now really, sir: we don’t agree with your doctrine, your opinion of God and His Son and Who they are, precisely We believe we are right about that and you…aren’t. Now exactly why should we let YOU tell us that we aren’t Christian, if we believe that you are incorrect in what you believe about Him?

. How about “Smithians”? That’s got a realistic ring to it. They don’t even believe in the same Jesus of the Bible, nor do they comprehend or follow basic Christian Doctrine. Guess you didn’t visit those two sites I sent. I’ve got a ton of others if you’re interested.

How about…If you are going to go all hierarchical on us, Christians, Mormons, Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Just as you are a Christian, a Catholic, and (perhaps…) a Roman Catholic.

Because I have some news for you, m’friend. You can decide that I am not a Christian all you want to, but that doesn’t make me 'not a Christian." That is a word that simply describes a very large set of beliefs that encompasses all religions that put Christ at the center; they all believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, and they all claim to be Christians.

Now, if you are going to claim that “Christian” means something else, like, oh, ‘right,’ or 'saved?"

Sorry, we are right, and you don’t get to decide who is saved and who isn’t. There are only two people who know whether any person is saved or not, and that is the person–and Jesus Christ Himself. Nobody else gets a vote.

Which is why you are a Christian until you tell me you aren’t, and why I am a Christian no matter what you think.

I believe that just about covers the matter.

 

[why_me]

It is disingenuous to declare that full participation in mormonism does not include temple stuff.

This is so silly.

It is not exactly silly. Full participation can occur without going to the temple. Going to the temple is a totally separate event. Most activities occur in the mormon meeting houses. The temple is important but it is separated from all the other meetings and activities mormons participate in. What happens during the temple ordinances is never discussed in mormon meetings.

 

[dianaiad]

So there are a lot of LDS who are not endowed and have not been sealed for time and eternity?

Yes. They will all have their work done, though. They need it…but they don’t need it to experience everything that the church can offer them in this life.

 

[dianaiad]

I just found the idea that lots of LDS don’t make it to the temple startling. I can see many not participating in the proxy stuff but the idea that LDS members don’t go for their own endowment or sealing seems off the wall considering how much emphasis is placed on it.

It is extremely important. However, some families have to save for years in order to be able to go. True, we have more and more Temples going up all over the world, and it isn’t anywhere near as difficult as it sometimes used to be, but still…

What I find disingenuous is holding up the priesthood as full participation in the Catholic faith all the while ignoring the fact that all men and no women hold the priesthood in the LDS faith. If one demands that holding the priesthood is the qualification for full participation in the Catholic faith, and those that don’t hold it are not fully participating, well then… there is not a single LDS woman who participates fully in the LDS faith.

Nice point.

…which is why I used communion as a better example.

 

[why_me]

Is that where Mitt Romster wants to go to become a God? Sorry, but has anyone told him he’ll never be President and to think of becoming a God is blasphemy.

No one would really bother mormons if they’d simply drop the “Christian” charade. They are not Christians. How about “Smithians”? That’s got a realistic ring to it. They don’t even believe in the same Jesus of the Bible, nor do they comprehend or follow basic Christian Doctrine. Guess you didn’t visit those two sites I sent. I’ve got a ton of others if you’re interested.

Actually, ‘Mitt Romster’ would have followed the catholic line more than Obama. But we should not get political on these threads. In terms of who is a christian and who is not, I find the whole debate unchristian. I am sure that when mormons die, heavenly father and his son Jesus Christ will find mormons to be very christian regardless of what mormons believe the ‘trinity’ to be. And I do believe that we will all be judge according to our works and to our faith. And many will fall short: mormons, catholics, and protestants.

 

[dianaiad]

–Actually he was shot whilst attempting to escape from jail. He was no prophet and he was certainly no martyr.

You may as well claim that the cause of his death was heart failure.

After all, after all those bullets went into him, that is, ultimately, what ended his life; his heart failed.

So let’s see here: 200 armed and black-faced men attack Carthage jail for the express purpose of killing the prisoners, who they thought were going to be unarmed. thirty or forty of them go upstairs and crowd the landing, shooting through the door. They kill Hyrum and put quite a few bullets into another man. At that point (and not until that point) Joseph picks up his pistol and shoots three times into the mob on the landing. His pistol then misfires. He puts it down, walks over to where the rest of the mob is shooting through the window. He calls for help from his masonic brethren (and he HAD to know that that wasn’t going to work) and stood there. He was shot…began to fall through the window and was shot again, the bullet going into his back. He was then propped against the outside wall of the building and shot many more times; he was used as target practice by that time.

The men, having murdered two men and seriously wounding another, decided that enough was enough, and didn’t shoot the last man in the room. How very kind of them.

If you want to call that 'shot while attempting to escape from jail," you can, but frankly, it’s a pretty asinine claim to make. Of course he was “shot while attempting to escape” (though frankly, his actions could just as easily be interpreted as ‘attempting to draw fire away from his friends’, especially since that’s exactly what ended up happening. His walk to the window saved the lives of the other two men in the room.)

See, the problem with your interpretation of events is that it only works if Joseph were trying to escape BEFORE the mob killed his brother and shot his friend full of holes. Since the mob was shooting at men who had voluntarily submitted themselves to arrest, and made no attempt to leave before that group showed up with murder on their minds, then calling his murder ‘shot while attempting to escape’ is a particularly nasty thing to say. A far more accurate description would be 'killed while being shot at."

 

[xixxvmcm85]

My goodness you people are hard to keep up with! I’m gone at work for 6 hours and there’s 6 new pages!

In any case, this post is directed to Diana.

I must say that your interpretation of the reasoning behind the contemporary understanding of the Word of Wisdom is rather queer to me. I have never once heard any Mormon describe the Word of Wisdom as a more arbitrary matter of discipline (tantamount to the Catholic abstinence of meat on Fridays). To the contrary, it had always been my experience as a Mormon that the Word of Wisdom inherently carried with it the weight of doctrine. I have never before heard a talk by any LDS at church speaking about the Word of Wisdom as a separatory mechanism, rather always as a significant health code with its central purpose to bring “strength to the navel and marrow to the bones”. We abstained from the prohibited substances not necessarily because we covenanted to do so, but because it was revealed to be wrong.

Your interpretation of the WoW is indeed very unique and I was wondering if you have any quotes by the General Authorities which echo your interpretation?

 

[RC_Matt]

–Yes. They’ve been brainwashed and they’re out there on their bikes in their short-sleeved white shirts.

All I wanna know from them is where Planet Kolob is. You know, where joe smith said God was once a man and turned into a God.

Hilarious stuff.

Kolob is a star, not a planet; it’s the star nearest the planet where the Mormon godhead (three separate physical entities, two of which are corporeal) physically resides. Mormons do indeed, however, believe the god of this earth (heavenly father) was once a mortal man who progressed to godhood through his own merit. He is one of countless gods in the cosmos. Mormons DO teach that men can become gods, have their own creation and be worshiped and revered by that creation in the same manner in which Mormons treat the god of earth.