Confrontation on Liturgical Abuses

[Brown10985]

Hi,
I’ve gone to two masses at the University I attend this year and I saw what I’m told are liturgical abuses. I’m planning on having a meeting about this with the religous who organizes the masses.

The first time I went people gathered around the alter for the Eucharistic Prayer and then, during the Our Father, everyone held each other’s hands. After everyone received the Eucharist, the priest told everyone to stand up who’s birthday it was this week. A few people stood as the priest then instructed everyone to sing happy birthday to those standing leading the congregation to burst out in singing the song.

The second time I went to mass, at the University, the homily was omited entirely and instead college students stood up and talked about their retreat experience. The same thing happened with people standing around the alter during the Eucharistic Prayer and holding hands during the Our Father like last time. Fortunately, this time there was no happy birthday singing.

Can someone point me to quotes from Church documents to plead my case?

Thank You

 

[albert_cipriani]

Brown10985:

Can someone point me to quotes from Church documents to plead my case?

Your M.O. is wrong and reminiscent of the Protestant mentality of always asking “where does it say that IN THE BIBLE.”

Sacrilege is a sin. To expect Church documents to detail every fresh example of sacrilege before you will act as if it is a sin is simply silly. Rather, it’s enough to fight or flee from those who are doing the sinning. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Once Suspended Traditional Catholic
http://www.geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/

 

[bear06]

Brown10985:

Hi,
I’ve gone to two masses at the University I attend this year and I saw what I’m told are liturgical abuses. I’m planning on having a meeting about this with the religous who organizes the masses.

The first time I went people gathered around the alter for the Eucharistic Prayer and then, during the Our Father, everyone held each other’s hands. After everyone received the Eucharist, the priest told everyone to stand up who’s birthday it was this week. A few people stood as the priest then instructed everyone to sing happy birthday to those standing leading the congregation to burst out in singing the song.

The second time I went to mass, at the University, the homily was omited entirely and instead college students stood up and talked about their retreat experience. The same thing happened with people standing around the alter during the Eucharistic Prayer and holding hands during the Our Father like last time. Fortunately, this time there was no happy birthday singing.

Can someone point me to quotes from Church documents to plead my case?

Thank You

I think you’re probably stuck on a few of these annoying things like hand-holding but you might want to check out Redemptionis Sacramentum vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

Start with the guy in charge of the mass and if you don’t get a satisfactory response (which you probably won’t - sorry to be so pessimistic) go to his authority and so on.

What university is this?

 

[Mysty101]

bear06:

What university is this?

I think a safe guess would be Brown (Brown10985)
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_4_121.gif

 

[Mysty101]

Hi,
As they say----
Pick your battles.

Just ask a few questions about the document and his thoughts on it. Try to be friendly, yet respectful—you do not want to get him on the defensive.
If he says that he is waiting for instructions from the Bishop, either just accept that answer, or call the Bishop’s office (also informally, even anonymously if no one asks your name) and just ask a few questions there.

The Religious is your Spiritual leader, and deserves respect. It will be to your benefit to stay on good terms, especially if you wish to continue to attend Mass there.

As bear said—there’s not much to be done about holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, and standing around the altar, especially in a university setting or a life teen Mass is not really addressed in most cases.

as far as Music goes–get this from the GIRM
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml

1. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Communion chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86 above. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.

admitted Happy Birthday may not be considered a suitable liturgical song, but if there was a Communion song or prayer before, I doubt anyone would do much about it (or even if there weren’t) This is to demonstrate that there is much leeway in music, especially at the entrance, offertory and after Communion.

Look at this— HB may be considered part of the concluding rite
**

D. THE CONCLUDING RITES

1. The concluding rites consist of
   a Brief announcements, if they are necessary;
   b The priest’s greeting and blessing, which on certain days and occasions is enriched and expressed in the prayer over the People or another more solemn formula;
   c The dismissal of the people by the deacon or the priest, so that each may go out to do good works, praising and blessing God;
   d The kissing of the altar by the priest and the deacon, followed by a profound bow to the altar by the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers.
   **
   to be continued**
   **

 

[Mysty101]

re lay preaching
**

**2. Preaching

161.**

As was already noted above, the homily on account of its importance and its nature is reserved to the Priest or Deacon during Mass.260 As regards other forms of preaching, if necessity demands it in particular circumstances, or if usefulness suggests it in special cases, lay members of Christ’s faithful may be allowed to preach in a church or in an oratory outside Mass in accordance with the norm of law.261 This may be done only on account of a scarcity of sacred ministers in certain places, in order to meet the need, and it may not be transformed from an exceptional measure into an ordinary practice, nor may it be understood as an authentic form of the advancement of the laity.262 All must remember besides that the faculty for giving such permission belongs to the local Ordinary, and this as regards individual instances; this permission is not the competence of anyone else, even if they are Priests or Deacons.

Canon law

Can. 767 §1 The most important form of preaching is the homily, which is part of the liturgy, and is reserved to a priest or deacon. In the course of the liturgical year, the mysteries of faith and the rules of Christian living are to be expounded in the homily from the sacred text.
§2 At all Masses on Sundays and holydays of obligation, celebrated with a congregation, there is to be a homily and, except for a grave reason, this may not be omitted

.
I suppose the Priest could argue that wittness about a retreat could be a serious matter. I would see if this is an exception or the norm before I said anything.

**Many times there are things we do not like, which may be legitimate options, or abuses which are not really serious. I personally would try to either go and participate the best I can or find a different Mass (unless there were abuses in the Consecration or communion, of course.)

 

[Mysty101]

PS Handholding was addressed a few times in the “AAA” section

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21936

 

[Fergal]

Well now.

I have a priest in my parish who is hell bent on omitting parts of the Mass or if not omitting parts, creating new parts or slanting the rubrics of the various ceremonies. For example the Altar servers prostrated with him on last Good Friday… Get the idea?

Last summer I spent a very considerable number of months in prayer asking the Lord what I should do about it and how I should do it. I do realise that God opened my eyes to see the abuses being silently introduced into the Holy Mass and it has been a time of great pain and sadness for me to see the Holy Mass tampered with in such a fashion.

I spent some time composing a very charitable letter to the Priest concerned following all the ‘de facto’ guidelines on how to report a liturgical abuse. I commended him for many of the new initiatives he has introduced into our Parish and thanked him for the inspiration he has added. I did point out the concerns I had on certain aspect of the Holy Mass and how it was being celebrated. I heard nothing. if anything, things got progressively worse.

Last month the Priest took to ommitting the lavabo from the Masses where there was no Altar servers. Now I saw red.

I wrote a 10 line letter telling him very directly of my disgust at his tampering with the greatest gift this side of Heaven and how I was no longer going to accept it. I told him enough was enough and that I was left with no option but to contact my Pastor and then the Diocesean Bishop.

Guess what? The Mass is back to its splendid state and although it is now itis said by him in a very rushed manner, the rubrics are followed fully.

I should be happy right? I am not. I feel now that I have attacked one of God’s ordained and that the reason for him following the rubrics laid down is bacuase he was threatened back into line. Not sitting comfortably with me at all. I have never threatened anything on anyone. My singular desire was for the sacredness of the Holy Mass. There was no one- upmanship on my behalf. The Lord knows what was in my heart and on my mind. The Lord knows I suffered much as His heart must suffer much watching liturgical abuses being introduced.

This morning at Mass a woman began shouting at this same priest during his homily. He was talking about Fallujah and the war and how Nazi memorabilia is on sale in Germany… but well out of context with the readings of the day. In fact his homily did not do the reading any justice. In my own humble opinion it was all off the top of his head.

She started to shout up at him “We are here to hear about Christ and His message to us through the Holy word not to hear about your ideas on war and please Father talk to us on Jesus Christ and His Holy Church.” She was sitting beside me!!! So I am sure he thought that I planted her there.

Oh my… now I really have to pray hard. My message? Be careful and pray hard about what God wants of you. Once started there is a long hard path to follow, worth it I know but difficult none the less.

 

[Crusader]

Fergal:

Well now.

I have a priest in my parish who is hell bent on omitting parts of the Mass or if not omitting parts, creating new parts or slanting the rubrics of the various ceremonies. For example the Altar servers prostrated with him on last Good Friday… Get the idea?

Last summer I spent a very considerable number of months in prayer asking the Lord what I should do about it and how I should do it. I do realise that God opened my eyes to see the abuses being silently introduced into the Holy Mass and it has been a time of great pain and sadness for me to see the Holy Mass tampered with in such a fashion.

I spent some time composing a very charitable letter to the Priest concerned following all the ‘de facto’ guidelines on how to report a liturgical abuse. I commended him for many of the new initiatives he has introduced into our Parish and thanked him for the inspiration he has added. I did point out the concerns I had on certain aspect of the Holy Mass and how it was being celebrated. I heard nothing. if anything, things got progressively worse.

Last month the Priest took to ommitting the lavabo from the Masses where there was no Altar servers. Now I saw red.

I wrote a 10 line letter telling him very directly of my disgust at his tampering with the greatest gift this side of Heaven and how I was no longer going to accept it. I told him enough was enough and that I was left with no option but to contact my Pastor and then the Diocesean Bishop.

Guess what? The Mass is back to its splendid state and although it is now itis said by him in a very rushed manner, the rubrics are followed fully.

I should be happy right? I am not. I feel now that I have attacked one of God’s ordained and that the reason for him following the rubrics laid down is bacuase he was threatened back into line. Not sitting comfortably with me at all. I have never threatened anything on anyone. My singular desire was for the sacredness of the Holy Mass. There was no one- upmanship on my behalf. The Lord knows what was in my heart and on my mind. The Lord knows I suffered much as His heart must suffer much watching liturgical abuses being introduced.

This morning at Mass a woman began shouting at this same priest during his homily. He was talking about Fallujah and the war and how Nazi memorabilia is on sale in Germany… but well out of context with the readings of the day. In fact his homily did not do the reading any justice. In my own humble opinion it was all off the top of his head.

She started to shout up at him “We are here to hear about Christ and His message to us through the Holy word not to hear about your ideas on war and please Father talk to us on Jesus Christ and His Holy Church.” She was sitting beside me!!! So I am sure he thought that I planted her there.

Oh my… now I really have to pray hard. My message? Be careful and pray hard about what God wants of you. Once started there is a long hard path to follow, worth it I know but difficult none the less.

I think the good Lord used you to help cleanse the celebration of His Mass at your parish. Good for you for having the courage.

 

[Mysty101]

Fergal:

Well now.

She started to shout up at him “We are here to hear about Christ and His message to us through the Holy word not to hear about your ideas on war and please Father talk to us on Jesus Christ and His Holy Church.” She was sitting beside me!!! So I am sure he thought that I planted her there.

Oh my… now I really have to pray hard. My message? Be careful and pray hard about what God wants of you. Once started there is a long hard path to follow, worth it I know but difficult none the less.

First of all, our Priest also spoke of atrocities as examples of what could be considered end times—it did tie in very nicely to the Gospel.

It would look more like your plant, if the woman weren’t sitting next to you. You could write Father a note saying you are sorry someone was so rude to him, if you don’t get a chance to say it in person. You could also thank him for the way he celebrates Mass (just saying something that he does do well, and not saying anything about rushing) or even just that you are relieved that he is including the parts that were omitted.

You prayed and listened to your heart. Don’t second guess yourself —the omitted parts were restored. This is a good thing.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Fergal:

Guess what? The Mass is back to its splendid state and although it is now itis said by him in a very rushed manner, the rubrics are followed fully.

I should be happy right? I am not. I feel now that I have attacked one of God’s ordained and that the reason for him following the rubrics laid down is bacuase he was threatened back into line. Not sitting comfortably with me at all. I have never threatened anything on anyone. My singular desire was for the sacredness of the Holy Mass.

Zeal for the house of the Lord consumes you, fergal. Do you think Jesus felt bad after driving the moneychangers out of the temple? Don’t be too hard on yourself.
Sounds as though this priest has been annoying a good many parishoners!
Don’t worry about whether he may think the woman was “a plant.” You know in your heart the Truth.
God Bless.

 

[albert_cipriani]

Fergal:

I should be happy right? I am not. I feel now that I have attacked one of God’s ordained and that the reason for him following the rubrics laid down is bacuase he was threatened back into line.

“Threatened?” You feel that you “attacked one of God’s ordained” and that the poor boy "was threatened back into line? Your words are an abuse of language. And I say you feel too much!

Who cares about his feeling or yours for that matter? It’s enough to correct those who need correction be they priests or the pope. That’s what St. Thomas Aquinas tells us we are obliged to do. It’s not an option but an obligation.

I’m proud of you that you and the lady next to you rose to the occasion of your obligation. I’m disappointed in your ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic