Confused about baptism

[mom2three]

Matthew 3:11, “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

Some use this verse to argue that the “new” baptism is merely a spiritual act and that water baptism has been replaced by this “baptism of the Holy Spirit”… making water baptism merely a symbol and unnecessary…

When I point out other verses about baptism (indicating its necessity), they tell me that it’s only talking of a spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit only, not a baptism of water in which the Holy Spirit is applied… They argue that the apostles received the Holy Spirit at a time other than water baptism and that this is proof that baptism is not regenerative and that it has no effect, like the removal of sin.

How do I answer this?

 

[ricko]

“He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . . so that we might be justified by his grace” (Titus 3:5–7). This “washing of regeneration” is baptism. It actually does something to us. It regenerates, says Scripture.

John 3:5: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Notice the sequence: First comes repentance; then comes baptism—which effects the forgiveness of sins—and then, as a consequence of that forgiveness and therefore of baptism, comes the gift (the grace) of the Holy Spirit. This verse makes sense only if it is understood as saying that baptism is not a mere symbol. If baptism were just an ordinance and not a sacrament, why would Peter bother to include it in his instruction?

“you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified” (1 Cor. 6:11). By washed he was not referring to the Corinthians’ bathing practices, because sanctification and justification are not dependent on hygienic practices. The verb meant that they had been baptized, and it was their baptism that brought them, for the first time, a state of sanctification and justification. Baptism changed them internally, spiritually, as it changes us.

“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

They need to read the bible with an open mind. Instead they twist its clear meaning to back up their personal beliefs. The above verses clearly show that it is water baptism that saves you and it is real.

 

[stbruno]

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/baptism.html#BAPTISM

Explore this whole section from the Catholic Catechism regarding baptism. It will explain why we do what we do as Catholics in regard to baptism.

Whenever you are asked to explain or defend our faith, always begin and end with a prayer…in hopes for the help of the Holy Spirit to fill your mouth with all the right words.

This means has never ever failed me.

 

[mh22]

Hello ,

I would first like to say congrats on your decision to commit yourself in your faith.

I remember a scripture that talks about Jesus himself performing baptisim for whole families. I would think that this evidence would lend support toward baptism being a step that Christ thought was important.

I am sorry that I do not have the exact gospel/scripture to give to you. Maybe someone here in this forum can help us out.

God bless.

 

[Nita]

Hello ,

I would first like to say congrats on your decision to commit yourself in your faith.

I remember a scripture that talks about Jesus himself performing baptisim for whole families. I would think that this evidence would lend support toward baptism being a step that Christ thought was important.

I am sorry that I do not have the exact gospel/scripture to give to you. Maybe someone here in this forum can help us out.

God bless.

There is no record of Jesus baptizing anyone. Scripture speaks of Paul baptizing households. (eg. Acts 16:15,31)

Nita

 

[NotWorthy]

The only time Jesus is involved in baptizing is in chapter 3 of John’s Gospel, shortly after discussing “being born in water and Spirit”. It says that Jesus was not baptizing.

 

[mich2]

Matthew 3:11, “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

Some use this verse to argue that the “new” baptism is merely a spiritual act and that water baptism has been replaced by this “baptism of the Holy Spirit”… making water baptism merely a symbol and unnecessary…

When I point out other verses about baptism (indicating its necessity), they tell me that it’s only talking of a spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit only, not a baptism of water in which the Holy Spirit is applied… They argue that the apostles received the Holy Spirit at a time other than water baptism and that this is proof that baptism is not regenerative and that it has no effect, like the removal of sin.

How do I answer this?

While John was baptizing in the Jordan, the pharasees believed that John was claiming to wash away the sins of the people through this rite. And so they asked “by whose authority do you baptize?” It seems that only three possibilities existed; was He the Messiah, Elijah or a prophet like unto Moses? Notice the Messiah was believed to be God’s Son, Moses is a type of the Father as he has given us God’s Law, and the “seat of Moses” was seen as being a type of God’s authoritative judgement . Elijah is clearly associated with the Holy Spirit as he is preserved from dying by the power of God’s Spirit.

But John claimed that He baptized with water only, identifying his baptism as an act of contrition on the part of the people turning away from their sins, but not an act of cleansing as such.

So we have Jesus’ words " unless one is baptized by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom".This baptism being that of water and the Spirit is a new birth which, I believe is reflected in Genesis where the Spirit of God hoveres on the face of the waters and God said "Let there be light. John speaks of this light of men as being the life of God, the very nature of Jesus.However, there is left the baptism of fire, which St Paul tells us we all will pass through.Such a baptism is also a cleansing and a separation of evil from good within our nature. Here, if the soul refuses to become cleansed, then it will continue to suffer within the fire which, in my opinion, becomes, for this individual, the fires of Hell.

The apostles were indeed baptized by water before they became apostles and only on the day of Pentecost were they baptized with the Holy Spirit. This coincides with the catholic’s practice of water baptism and the sacrament of confirmation.

Now, notice the apostles were baptized with water** before **Jesus was raised from the dead, and so could not have had yet the faith needed for the protestants’ view of baptism where one is baptized with water only when one can fully understand and accept the belief of Christ crucified for our sins and raised from the dead.As long as they were his disciples, in that they were learning and growing in God’s love, **slowly **coming to an understanding of God’s plan for humanity, like unto a child, water baptism was sufficient to make them a part of the Church .

Andre

 

[mh22]

There is no record of Jesus baptizing anyone. Scripture speaks of Paul baptizing households. (eg. Acts 16:15,31)

Nita

Hi,

I was able to locate the scripture that shows evidence of Jesus baptizing. John 3: 22, “After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them and baptized.”

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi,

I was able to locate the scripture that shows evidence of Jesus baptizing. John 3: 22, “After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them and baptized.”

Go to the next chapter.

John 4:1-2: Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples)…

 

[homewardbound]

It doesn’t matter that Jesus did not baptize, the disciples would not have been doing so unless Jesus had commanded them to do so. And they did baptize, water baptisim is biblical. I’m glad I’ve never met anyone who claims such silly things as those the OP has.

Take care and God Bless mom2three

 

[Efrain]

“He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . . so that we might be justified by his grace” (Titus 3:5–7). This “washing of regeneration” is baptism. It actually does something to us. It regenerates, says Scripture.

John 3:5: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Notice the sequence: First comes repentance; then comes baptism—which effects the forgiveness of sins—and then, as a consequence of that forgiveness and therefore of baptism, comes the gift (the grace) of the Holy Spirit. This verse makes sense only if it is understood as saying that baptism is not a mere symbol. If baptism were just an ordinance and not a sacrament, why would Peter bother to include it in his instruction?

“you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified” (1 Cor. 6:11). By washed he was not referring to the Corinthians’ bathing practices, because sanctification and justification are not dependent on hygienic practices. The verb meant that they had been baptized, and it was their baptism that brought them, for the first time, a state of sanctification and justification. Baptism changed them internally, spiritually, as it changes us.

“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

They need to read the bible with an open mind. Instead they twist its clear meaning to back up their personal beliefs. The above verses clearly show that it is water baptism that saves you and it is real.

I have came across the a similar dilema. I have heard claims that how can one be baptized who is not aware or actually repents of sin, i.e. infants? If repentance comes first how is infant baptism valid?

 

[mh22]

Is infant baptism a baptism of desire on behalf of the parents representing the infant?

If so, can the repentance be shown through the parents acknowledging the fact that their infant has original sin?

 

[mh22]

Go to the next chapter.

John 4:1-2: Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples)…

Thanks,

I read that and I was somewhat confused. It seems to say on one hand that Jesus was involved in baptizing and later on it clarifies that he was not.

I also agree that it does not matter if he personally baptized people or if his apostles did it on his behalf.

I guess it would have been kind of different for Jesus to baptize someone in his name and everyone would probably want to have Jesus baptize them and claim it was more complete.(Just thinking out loud)

 

[Mintaka]

Jesus commanded us to baptize. In specific words.

Right before He ascended.

If people believe in the Great Commission, then logically, they have to believe in the part about baptism. If not, I guess they can quit evangelization, too.

Re: “water and the Holy Spirit”

Confirmation is not “baptism in the Holy Spirit”. Confirmation is having the Holy Spirit come upon you, yes, but that’s not the same thing.

All baptism that is done in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, is baptism by water and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Veritas41]

I used to be Presbyterian, and I believed that the baptism of regeneration spoken of in Scripture was spiritual and believed water baptism was symbolic of what had already happened spiritually in the soul. I had a friend in the Church of Christ (which teaches baptismal regeneration) show me the various Scriptures that show that it is water baptism through which we receive regeneration,but I didn’t interpret them that way because basically I did what all Protestants do–make the verse fit the preconceived theology rather than take the verse at face value. Do share with your friend the verses but don’t be too disappointed if he doesn’t readily admit they teach water baptism is what saves us. Pray for your friend that God will open his eyes to the truth, which He did for me eventually

 

[mich2]

Jesus commanded us to baptize. In specific words.

Right before He ascended.

If people believe in the Great Commission, then logically, they have to believe in the part about baptism. If not, I guess they can quit evangelization, too.

Re: “water and the Holy Spirit”

Confirmation is not “baptism in the Holy Spirit”. Confirmation is having the Holy Spirit come upon you, yes, but that’s not the same thing.

All baptism that is done in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, is baptism by water and the Holy Spirit.

     I do agree that baptism with water, in the name of the Holy Trinity includes somehow, the reception of the Holy Spirit, in the way that it is through the Spirit that our soul is cleansed. In my opinion, John's baptism was a baptism of water only, until he baptized Jesus, who, in turn, transformed John's rite into the baptism in the name (authority)of the Holy Trinity. This baptism was afterwards given by Jesus to the apostles, who,in turn,  baptized the other disciples and followers of Jesus.This was a regeneration, a new birth, needed to be received in order to enter God's Kingdom. Just as the Eucharist was instituted before the death of Jesus, it was still nevertheless united to it. So too, I believe that baptism given to the apostles, was the baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity.

However, the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is nevertheless called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The apostles did not need to receive baptism of water (in the name of the Holy Trinity) a second time. But it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is given in plentitude or as a seal at the Sacrament of Confirmation.

**Cyprian of Carthage

“[O]ne is not born by the imposition of hands when he receives the Holy Ghost, but in baptism, that so, being already born, he may receive the Holy Spirit, even as it happened in the first man Adam. For first God formed him, and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. For the Spirit cannot be received, unless he who receives first has an existence. But . . . the birth of Christians is in baptism” (ibid., 74[73]:7).**

**“Some say in regard to those who were baptized in Samaria that when the apostles Peter and John came there only hands were imposed on them so that they might receive the Holy Spirit, and that they were not re-baptized. But we see, dearest brother, that this situation in no way pertains to the present case. Those in Samaria who had believed had believed in the true faith, and it was by the deacon Philip, whom those same apostles had sent there, that they had been baptized inside—in the Church. . . . Since, then, they had already received a legitimate and ecclesiastical baptism, it was not necessary to baptize them again. Rather, that only which was lacking was done by Peter and John. The prayer having been made over them and hands having been imposed upon them, the Holy Spirit was invoked and was poured out upon them. This is even now the practice among us, so that those who are baptized in the Church then are brought to the prelates of the Church; through our prayer and the imposition of hands, they receive the Holy Spirit and are perfected with the seal of the Lord” (ibid., 73[72]:9).
**

Andre

 

[mom2three]

Thank you for all the helpful responses… I think I have a clearer understanding at this point…

 

[mrs_abbott]

Matthew 3:11, “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

Couldn’t this also symbolize that Jesus’ death on the Cross baptized us all so that we became worthy of entering Heaven?

 

[NotWorthy]

Couldn’t this also symbolize that Jesus’ death on the Cross baptized us all so that we became worthy of entering Heaven?

If that were true, then why did Jesus feel the need to give the Apostles the authority to forgive or remit sins (as seen in John, chapter 20).

Remember, that this happened AFTER His death on the cross. So it wouldn’t be necessary if He already made us worthy of entering Heaven.

 

[mrs_abbott]

If that were true, then why did Jesus feel the need to give the Apostles the authority to forgive or remit sins (as seen in John, chapter 20).

Remember, that this happened AFTER His death on the cross. So it wouldn’t be necessary if He already made us worthy of entering Heaven.

Then why did John say what he did about Jesus and baptism?