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NotWorthy
Guest
Can you be more specific?
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Matthew 3:11, “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”
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NotWorthy
Guest
This coincides with what Jesus discusses with Nicodemus in John chapter 3. “Unless one is born of water and spirit…” (paraphrase).
Jesus will pass on Baptism to His Church, which uses water as the form, and infuses us with the Holy Spirit, which is often symbolized by fire (Look at the Descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost).
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mrs_abbott
Guest
So it has nothing to do with the redemptive aspect of Jesus’ death on the Cross?
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NotWorthy
Guest
I would say it has everything to do with the redemptive aspect of Jesus’ death on the Cross, albeit indirectly.
Jesus’ death on the Cross gave us the opportunity to be saved by the water and Spirit in Baptism.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Do you know why we have baptism of water, since Jesus’ death on the Cross redeemed us?
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NotWorthy
Guest
Redemption is NOT Sanctification. It’s just the buying back (redeeming) of our state of Grace. We are now capable of receiving God’s Graces, since Baptism has blotted out the stain of Original Sin.
This is done through no merit of ours. But, the rest of the game is played in large part by us. Look at Jesus’ words in the Gospel. Where does He base our judgement on anything OTHER than our works? The answer is nowhere.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
umm . . . we are also supposed to have faith.
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LilyM
Guest
I’ll quote the NAB - John 3:22: “Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. John was ***also ***baptizing” (my emphasis). Sounds pretty clearcut to me that both Jesus and John continued the practice.
Having said that, in light of later passages it may be that it was only the disciples who were baptizing - in which case why did he let them do so if it was unnecessary? Besides which, the most obvious point - if water baptism is unnecessary then why the heck did Jesus bother getting himself baptised?
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NotWorthy
Guest
Of course, but Jesus tells us we are to be JUDGED by our works. Our Faith saves us, But Faith without works is dead. I know these are James’ words, but they are appropo.umm . . . we are also supposed to have faith.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Lily, I agree with you 100%. Jesus’ attendence at the Apostles Baptisms speaks volumes. To me, it’s “case closed”. ***Baptism now saves you! ***- PeterI’ll quote the NAB - John 3:22: “Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. John was ***also ***baptizing” (my emphasis). Sounds pretty clearcut to me that both Jesus and John continued the practice.
Having said that, in light of later passages it may be that it was only the disciples who were baptizing - in which case why did he let them do so if it was unnecessary? Besides which, the most obvious point - if water baptism is unnecessary then why the heck did Jesus bother getting himself baptised?
But, the point was brought up of whether Jesus was participating directly in the Baptisms. I simply answered that query.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Veering off topic a little but I had to ask a question: what are these works and are they done for our benefit then to earn salvation?
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NotWorthy
Guest
For starters, look at the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:
Why do we do these? We do them because we love God and we wish to please Him. If that is your motivation, then you are well on your way toward Salvation.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
I’m glad we’re on the same page!
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DLC
Guest
Dear Ricko,
If you look at the verses you are given to support the idea of baptism there is a porblem with the understanding of those verses. Here is why. The Bible is totaly consistent and must be understood in total. God will never tell us that we are saved by faith apart from works, Eph 2:8-9, and then tell us that there is a work that we need to do in order to be saved. This would be presenting a conflict in the Bible and the Bible is without error. It is in the man’s understanding of the Bible passages on salvation and baptism that we find the problem.
Paul tells us what the gospel is that saves us and that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Baptism is not included in the description of the gospel here in 1 Cor. 15. This explains why he said he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: (1 Cor. 1:14-17).
If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn’t necessary for salvation. Therefore, John 3:5 must be interpreted in a manner consistent with the rest of scripture.
DLC
If you look at the verses you are given to support the idea of baptism there is a porblem with the understanding of those verses. Here is why. The Bible is totaly consistent and must be understood in total. God will never tell us that we are saved by faith apart from works, Eph 2:8-9, and then tell us that there is a work that we need to do in order to be saved. This would be presenting a conflict in the Bible and the Bible is without error. It is in the man’s understanding of the Bible passages on salvation and baptism that we find the problem.
Paul tells us what the gospel is that saves us and that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Baptism is not included in the description of the gospel here in 1 Cor. 15. This explains why he said he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: (1 Cor. 1:14-17).
If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn’t necessary for salvation. Therefore, John 3:5 must be interpreted in a manner consistent with the rest of scripture.
DLC
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mom2three
Guest
If this is the case, please explain James 2:24 - “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” The problem with Eph 2:8-9 is that the word “alone” is not present there… Paul is speaking of works done to merit one’s own salvation… Clearly, if you look at the very next verse, it is clear that not ALL works are condemned… just the ones we do to try to earn our own way to heaven… (Eph 2:10 - For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.)
If you are going to look at Scripture in it’s entirety, then how are we to interpret John 3:5 here? It is clear we have to do something… and that is to be born of water AND the spirit. What water could he possible be speaking of other than baptism?
There are *many *things throughout the Bible that tell us what saves us and we must consider all of them together, just as you said… These things are not limited to 1 Cor 15:1-4 and actually DO include baptism.
For example:
1 Peter 3:21-22
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Acts 2: 37-38
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. **And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. **The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
1 Cor 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Mt 19:16-17
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
We cannot get ourselves stuck in an either/or mentality. God’s grace saves us, along with our faith, works (i.e. baptism), love, obedience…
In addition, it must be remembered that, when we die, we will be judged according to our works, not our faith.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
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guanophore
Guest
At least we are in agreement, DLC, that the Bible does not contradict itself! But Jesus taught us that we must be baptized. He modeled that HImself. He also taught us that there is an essential “work” on our part for salvation to be effective (john 6:28)
Follow your own advice, DLC, and take ALL the Bible verses together. Interpret this one in a manner consistent!
Acts 2:37-39
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
1 Peter 3:21
Baptism …now saves you
When you take it together, it is clear to see that baptism is required.
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DLC
Guest
Acts 2:38
Baptism does not save, nor is it essential for salvation. Otherwise, why would Paul say in 1 Cor 1 that he was called to preach the gospel and not to baptize? Paul makes a distinction between the two, implying that one is just a picture of the other. At bottom, if we add to the work of Christ, then we take away from the sufficiency of the cross.
Below is the discussion of Acts 2:38 in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Exegetical Syntax:
Baptism does not save, nor is it essential for salvation. Otherwise, why would Paul say in 1 Cor 1 that he was called to preach the gospel and not to baptize? Paul makes a distinction between the two, implying that one is just a picture of the other. At bottom, if we add to the work of Christ, then we take away from the sufficiency of the cross.
Below is the discussion of Acts 2:38 in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Exegetical Syntax:
- Causal Ei" in Acts 2:38? An interesting discussion over the force of ei" took place several years ago, especially in relation to Acts 2:38. The text reads as follows: Pevtro" deV pro" aujtouV" metanohvsate, fhsivn, kaiV baptisqhvtw e{kasto" uJmw’n ejpiV tw’/ ojnovmati jIhsou’ Cristou’ ei" a[fesin tw’n aJmartiw’n uJmw’n … (“And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized—each one of you—at the name of Jesus Christ because of/for/unto the forgiveness of your sins…”).
On the one hand, J. R. Mantey argued that ei" could be used causally in various passages in the NT, among them Matt 3:11 and Acts 2:38. It seems that Mantey believed that a salvation by grace would be violated if a causal eij” was not evident in such passages as Acts 2:38.
On the other hand, Ralph Marcus questioned Mantey’s nonbiblical examples of a causal eij" so that in his second of two rejoinders he concluded (after a blow-by-blow refutation): It is quite possible that eiv" is used causally in these NT passages but the examples of causal eij" cited from non-biblical Greek contribute absolutely nothing to making this possibility a probability. If, therefore, Professor Mantey is right in his interpretation of various NT passages on baptism and repentance and the remission of sins, he is right for reasons that are non- linguistic. Marcus ably demonstrated that the linguistic evidence for a causal eij" fell short of proof.
If a causal eij" is not in view, what are we to make of Acts 2:38? There are at least four other interpretations of Acts 2:38. 1) The baptism referred to here is physical only, and eij" has the meaning of for or unto. Such a view, if this is all there is to it, suggests that salvation is based on works. The basic problem of this view is that it runs squarely in the face of the theology of Acts, namely: (a) repentance precedes baptism (cf. Acts 3:19; 26:20), and (b) salvation is entirely a gift of God, not procured via water baptism (Acts 10:43 [cf. v 47]; 13:38-39, 48; 15:11; 16:30-31; 20:21; 26:18).
- The baptism referred to here is spiritual only. Although such a view fits well with the theology of Acts, it does not fit well with the obvious meaning of “baptism” in Acts—especially in this text (cf. 2:41).
- The text should be repunctuated in light of the shift from second person plural to third person singular back to second person plural again. If so, it would read as follows: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized at the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins…” If this is the correct understanding, then eij" is subordinate to metanohvsate alone, rather than to baptisqhvtw. The idea then would be, “Repent for/with reference to your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.…” Such a view is an acceptable way of handling eij", but its subtlety and awkwardness are against it.
- Finally, it is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol. In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (viz., that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit-baptized.
In sum, although Mantey’s instincts were surely correct that in Luke’s theology baptism was not the cause of salvation, his ingenious solution of a causal eiv" lacks conviction. There are other ways for us to satisfy the tension, but adjusting the grammar to answer a backward-looking “Why?” has no more basis than the notion that eij" ever meant mere representation (see prior discussion).
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Mannyfit75
Guest
St. Peter disagrees with you.
1 Peter 3:21-22
21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22: who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him
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DLC
Guest
Please read the 1 Peter passage carefully.
1 Peter 3:17-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
NASU
1 Peter 3:17-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
NASU
- In Noah’s day water was apicture of death not salvation.
- Water baptism does not saved because it does not remove the dirt from the flesh.
- Water baptism is an appeal to to God for a good conscience.
- Everyone know that Noah and his family were saved whrn they entered the arc and not through water baptism.
- We are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
NASU
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