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DianaCC
Guest
Tongues is a gift, mindless babbling is not. The reason mindless babbling sounds like gibberish is because it is gibberish.
- Status
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centurionguard
Guest
Call it how you feel inclined as gibberish but I wouldn’t call it mindless.
Would you call a foreign language if you heard for the very first time and not understanding any of it gibberish?
I certainly would.
Does a young infant child understand human language at birth? No
Have you ever thought of yourself as really being an infant child before the Ineffable Infinity of Almighty God?
Jesus the Son of God in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity had to strip Himself of His Divinity so He could come in our form and speak to us in our infant child-like gibberish, babbling human language.
No discernible human intellect is supposed to understand the the Holy Spirit’s Gift of Tongues as a language onto itself as far as human capacity is concerned.
If the Gift of Tongues sounds gibberish or (as you put it “mindless”) its because the Holy Spirit wants to keep the Proud from trying to figure it out in their own small human intellect in comparison to the fathomless intellect of God.
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vardaquinn
Guest
Today I was at Mass in a bilingual parish, and after the pastor was having a conversation with someone in Spanish. To me, it sounded like total babbling and gibberish. DUH, of course tongues sounds like gibberish if you don’t know the language. I’m sorry I can’t present much more evidence beyond anecdotal evidence…I can name a whole lot of instances that have been related to me where actual languages have been clearly indentified by someone who actually knows the language. I have many suspicions about the languages I have spoken in, but not knowing anything beyond English and basic Latin, I can’t verify that they’re actual languages. I can tell you that I don’t control what words I speak. I can control when I start and stop, but not what syllables come out of my mouth. It sure sounds like a language anyway.
But I know of one instance when a guy was praying in French, another in Italian, also in an ancient Gothic French I think… You can listen to this onehttp://ctkcc.libsyn.com/charisms-part-1-dave-mangan-jan-21-2011, or this one ctkcc.libsyn.com/charisms-part-2-dave-mangan-feb-4-2011 (I forget which one it is) in which the guy relates stories from his own experience. There was a time at that parish when a visiting priest from Uganda was saying Mass. At that parish, which is a charismatic parish, they have permission to pray in tongues at certain parts of the Mass (usually after the Gloria). This priest was skeptical of the whole thing, but the acolyte behind him suddenly began speaking in his own native Ugandan language from whatever village he came from. I know of a story of a man whose native language I think was Syriac, and he was writing some thesis on the Blessed Mother. He had some theological problem that he couldn’t work out. Meanwhile, he attended a charismatic prayer meeting or event of some kind (he was also skeptical of speaking in tongues). At this event, when there was a time for praying in tongues, the woman in front of him began praying in Syriac and explaining the problem to him. I know a priest who knows several languages and who also has a gift of discernment and listened to some boys praying in tongues to verify they had really received the gift. One of the boys began speaking in Hebrew, which the priest happens to know. This isn’t mere rumor, because I’ve met this priest. This priest also at one time was praying in Italian for sure. I really could go on all day. But I’m sorry these are all anecdotal.
nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=2&oref=slogin You might find this informative as well. And very cool.
In any case, we don’t need to have every single instance of tongues verified as an actual language. 1. that’s not the point and 2. the Church has already verified for us that this is a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit, so by faith we can just accept that it is some real language (even if no-one else on the planet still knows it, or perhaps some sort of angelic language). But it is not senseless babbling. If you disagree, then I’m sorry but you disagree with Church teaching (particularly the Sacred Scripture).
Excuse me, but Paul does not stress the relative uselessness of it. Please read Corinthians 14. He says it is GOOD. He says he who prays in a tongue EDIFIES himself - or more accurately builds up the temple of God within him (edify, and edifice, have the same root word aedificare from Latin - to build up). He says he wants all to pray in tongues. He encourages tongues. He says pray in the Spirit every chance you get. He says don’t forbid it. But he also says - it’s not as important as some of these other charismatic gifts. Because this gift really only helps the individual (unless there is an interpretation). Prophecy therefore is a lot more important, because it’s of more service to more people.
The claim that demonics speak in tongues, or that it could be demonic, really has no bearing here. As G.K. Chesterton says, this no more disproves the reality than a counterfeit note disproves the bank of England.
I don’t see how exactly a person can have their spiritual life revolve around it… But I don’t see a problem with it playing a very big part. It is, after all, the praise and adoration of God in the Holy Spirit. Which is kind of what we’re going to be doing for all eternity. So.
I find it kind of ironic that critics of the charismatic movement, especially criticizing its emphasis on “feelings” and “emotionalism”, often base their critique on their own feelings about the movement. They had a bad feeling about it.
We walk by faith, and not by feelings. Do watch the Church says. In any case, I don’t see anything wrong with getting hyped up about God. We don’t criticize people for getting emotionally excited and hyped up about a football game… and this is a lot bigger, and infinite times more amazing, than a football game. 
Really, now, guys. You’re complaining that people are emotionally excited about their faith? But hey, I’m sure they thought the Apostles were pretty wacko coming out of the Upper Room. They did suspect, you know, that they were drunk (and in fact, they were, they had “drunk of the sober intoxication of the Spirit” to borrow a quote from St. Ambrose). I guess that’s a good sign!
Anyway, there needs to be a lot more proper catechesis about the charismatic gifts. Especially since, as John Paul II noted on Pentecost 1998, we had pretty much kind of forgotten about them for a long time. And the Vatican Council (particularly in section 12 of Lumen Gentium) brought it back to our attention, and put the emphasis on them once more. And boy, what do you know, just a few short years after the council - the Charismatic Renewal takes off like an explosion and spreads all over the world, becoming the fastest growing movement in the history of Christendom. Imagine that.
But I know of one instance when a guy was praying in French, another in Italian, also in an ancient Gothic French I think… You can listen to this onehttp://ctkcc.libsyn.com/charisms-part-1-dave-mangan-jan-21-2011, or this one ctkcc.libsyn.com/charisms-part-2-dave-mangan-feb-4-2011 (I forget which one it is) in which the guy relates stories from his own experience. There was a time at that parish when a visiting priest from Uganda was saying Mass. At that parish, which is a charismatic parish, they have permission to pray in tongues at certain parts of the Mass (usually after the Gloria). This priest was skeptical of the whole thing, but the acolyte behind him suddenly began speaking in his own native Ugandan language from whatever village he came from. I know of a story of a man whose native language I think was Syriac, and he was writing some thesis on the Blessed Mother. He had some theological problem that he couldn’t work out. Meanwhile, he attended a charismatic prayer meeting or event of some kind (he was also skeptical of speaking in tongues). At this event, when there was a time for praying in tongues, the woman in front of him began praying in Syriac and explaining the problem to him. I know a priest who knows several languages and who also has a gift of discernment and listened to some boys praying in tongues to verify they had really received the gift. One of the boys began speaking in Hebrew, which the priest happens to know. This isn’t mere rumor, because I’ve met this priest. This priest also at one time was praying in Italian for sure. I really could go on all day. But I’m sorry these are all anecdotal.
nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=2&oref=slogin You might find this informative as well. And very cool.
In any case, we don’t need to have every single instance of tongues verified as an actual language. 1. that’s not the point and 2. the Church has already verified for us that this is a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit, so by faith we can just accept that it is some real language (even if no-one else on the planet still knows it, or perhaps some sort of angelic language). But it is not senseless babbling. If you disagree, then I’m sorry but you disagree with Church teaching (particularly the Sacred Scripture).
Excuse me, but Paul does not stress the relative uselessness of it. Please read Corinthians 14. He says it is GOOD. He says he who prays in a tongue EDIFIES himself - or more accurately builds up the temple of God within him (edify, and edifice, have the same root word aedificare from Latin - to build up). He says he wants all to pray in tongues. He encourages tongues. He says pray in the Spirit every chance you get. He says don’t forbid it. But he also says - it’s not as important as some of these other charismatic gifts. Because this gift really only helps the individual (unless there is an interpretation). Prophecy therefore is a lot more important, because it’s of more service to more people.
The claim that demonics speak in tongues, or that it could be demonic, really has no bearing here. As G.K. Chesterton says, this no more disproves the reality than a counterfeit note disproves the bank of England.
I don’t see how exactly a person can have their spiritual life revolve around it… But I don’t see a problem with it playing a very big part. It is, after all, the praise and adoration of God in the Holy Spirit. Which is kind of what we’re going to be doing for all eternity. So.
I find it kind of ironic that critics of the charismatic movement, especially criticizing its emphasis on “feelings” and “emotionalism”, often base their critique on their own feelings about the movement. They had a bad feeling about it.
We walk by faith, and not by feelings. Do watch the Church says. In any case, I don’t see anything wrong with getting hyped up about God. We don’t criticize people for getting emotionally excited and hyped up about a football game… and this is a lot bigger, and infinite times more amazing, than a football game. Really, now, guys. You’re complaining that people are emotionally excited about their faith? But hey, I’m sure they thought the Apostles were pretty wacko coming out of the Upper Room. They did suspect, you know, that they were drunk (and in fact, they were, they had “drunk of the sober intoxication of the Spirit” to borrow a quote from St. Ambrose). I guess that’s a good sign!Anyway, there needs to be a lot more proper catechesis about the charismatic gifts. Especially since, as John Paul II noted on Pentecost 1998, we had pretty much kind of forgotten about them for a long time. And the Vatican Council (particularly in section 12 of Lumen Gentium) brought it back to our attention, and put the emphasis on them once more. And boy, what do you know, just a few short years after the council - the Charismatic Renewal takes off like an explosion and spreads all over the world, becoming the fastest growing movement in the history of Christendom. Imagine that.
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Windmill
Guest
Is there any official definition from the Church on exactly what “speaking in tongues” is?
It is very easy for someone to simply let all their inhibitions go, start babbling, and then call it “a gift” when, in fact, it is simply one’s own self-deception. It can lead to spiritual pride (“Look how holy I am”) and an anti-intellectualism that places emotionalism above catechesis.
I have always felt this “gift” was more of a show and an excuse not to grow in the knowledge of your faith. The sacraments are the real power. If your prayer life is centered on “tongues”, “deliverance prayers”, and being “slain in the spirit” rather than going to confession and receiving Holy Communion in a state of Grace, then the Devil is doing his job.
Pray always. Live the sacramental life. Learn the moral and spiritual dogmas of the Church. If you miss that, you miss the boat.
I’m not saying all Charismatics are like this. I know many who are very well-formed, but emotionalism is not Catholic. Watch for that in your own prayer life.
It is very easy for someone to simply let all their inhibitions go, start babbling, and then call it “a gift” when, in fact, it is simply one’s own self-deception. It can lead to spiritual pride (“Look how holy I am”) and an anti-intellectualism that places emotionalism above catechesis.
I have always felt this “gift” was more of a show and an excuse not to grow in the knowledge of your faith. The sacraments are the real power. If your prayer life is centered on “tongues”, “deliverance prayers”, and being “slain in the spirit” rather than going to confession and receiving Holy Communion in a state of Grace, then the Devil is doing his job.
Pray always. Live the sacramental life. Learn the moral and spiritual dogmas of the Church. If you miss that, you miss the boat.
I’m not saying all Charismatics are like this. I know many who are very well-formed, but emotionalism is not Catholic. Watch for that in your own prayer life.
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DianaCC
Guest
I’m not calling it gibberish because I feel inclined to do so; I’m calling it gibberish because I am positively compelled by decades of consistent, sober experience to call it just that.
The rest of your objections boil down to the starkly ridicuous contention that the phenomenon appears to be nonsense precisely because it’s not nonsense. Well two can play at that game, Centurion. What if I said it sounds like language to you because you’re naive, credulous, and gullible, that you’re unable to see the truth of the matter because in your spiritual immaturity you lack proper discernment, that you’re easily taken in because you have been immersed in a secularized culture that frowns on rational thought, and that you are drowning the promptings of the Holy Spirit and of your own conscience in a flood of vain, self-serving emotionalism?
Seriously, Centurion, if I were to turn the tables on you like that, how would you respond? Would you abandon the topic and divert our attention to the “fruits”?
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centurionguard
Guest
Actually; in some respects (“and I genuinely write this with no offense intended”) but in my experience the people who most criticize and even go to great length to ridicule the Gift of Tongues, are the same people who want to over analyze and measure its worth in so many ways. And this is most often by those who don’t even possess this Gift.
However; I have studied many too who do possess this freely given Gift, but like a often recommended genuine Prayer Life by the Church, such people will take such Talents given by God and hide them under a bushel either by neglect, laziness, pride or all three.
Without reservation everybody knows the Gift of Tongues is a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
When I see some go to lengths to undermine this Gift I see it as very sinful.
God forgives many uncountable sins. One can even blaspheme God and be forgiven.
Sins against the Holy Spirit however; can’t be forgiven. If one of the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit is given freely to someone and fails to use it or slaps it back in Gods face; I see it as very serious.
All Gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to Glorify God alone.
Humility is the key to using such Gifts even if the user (“servant of God doesn’t have full understanding of the Gifts”) but uses them to always to give Glory to God.
In the beautiful Book of (“ECCLESIASTICUS”) SIRACH
Chapter 3 verse 20-26 haydock1859.tripod.com/id1171.html
However; I have studied many too who do possess this freely given Gift, but like a often recommended genuine Prayer Life by the Church, such people will take such Talents given by God and hide them under a bushel either by neglect, laziness, pride or all three.
Without reservation everybody knows the Gift of Tongues is a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
When I see some go to lengths to undermine this Gift I see it as very sinful.
God forgives many uncountable sins. One can even blaspheme God and be forgiven.
Sins against the Holy Spirit however; can’t be forgiven. If one of the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit is given freely to someone and fails to use it or slaps it back in Gods face; I see it as very serious.
All Gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to Glorify God alone.
Humility is the key to using such Gifts even if the user (“servant of God doesn’t have full understanding of the Gifts”) but uses them to always to give Glory to God.
In the beautiful Book of (“ECCLESIASTICUS”) SIRACH
Chapter 3 verse 20-26 haydock1859.tripod.com/id1171.html
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beth40n2
Guest
This forum with all of its arguments is the reason why Christians who have the gift sometimes keep it to themselves. The gift of tongues, just like any other gift did not cease. I understand the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as a group is only a couple decades old, but the gifts have been from the beginning.
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vardaquinn
Guest
@ Windmill: how do you mean official? The Catechism doesn’t offer a definition, but it does mention it. Scripture offers a couple sort of definitions, see 1 Corinthinas 14. From Scripture, and from experience of the charism, there seem to be at least two sorts of speaking in tongues. One, in which the “spirit prays, but the mind is unfruitful”, which is where there’s a lot of controversy. It’s a permanent gift of the Spirit, in which you are able to praise God in languages you don’t know. Or rather, the Holy Spirit prays through you. This is evidenced throughout Acts, and mentioned in several letters (particularly 1 Corinthinans). The other sort is like this, but for the purpose of instruction. For this, there is supposed to be an interpretation.
I myself don’t usually experience emotional or sensational things when praying in tongues. It’s not about letting my inhibitions go at all. I just open my mouth and the words come out. I don’t in any way control them. It’s rarely an emotional sort of hyped up experience.
The devil likes making either/or’s out of what Scripture insists are both/and’s. It’s not at all a “sacraments” vs. “charisms” sort of thing. They’re both important aspects of the Christian life. But the entire activity of the Church, as Sacrosanctum Concilium noted, is not exhausted with the celebration of Mass. Everything flows to and from the Mass, but that is NOT meant to be all we do as Christians. Yes, live the sacramental life. But live out the sacraments and the graces you have received from them. Scripture shows us this is through using those particular charisms the Spirit has given you.
Being charismatic is not “emotionalism”. At least, not according to the Church.
@DianaCC: please be charitable. To deny the authenticity of the charism of tongues is to contradict the teachings of Scripture and the Church. You sound very angry. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that you’ve had a very bad experience with charismatics, or perhaps Protestant Pentecostals. Your arguments aren’t very logical though… is everyone who ‘supports’ the gift of tongues simply the product of a secularized culture that downplays rational thought? That really doesn’t make sense.
The question should be - why shouldn’t someone pray in tongues? Why shouldn’t someone desire this gift? What on earth do you stand to gain by deliberately turning away from any gift of the Holy Spirit? I want all I can get, because I need all the help I can get! I want to adore God in the Holy Spirit! I want to sing to the Lord a new song! I want to cry out with a hundred thousand tongues! The fruits of this are of course immense. Why should anyone be against this?
@ centurionguard: just to clarify, tongues isn’t one of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those 7 are conferred by sanctifying grace at Confirmation to everyone. All confirmed Catholics receive those gifts, they are sacramental. They are wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude, and fear of the lord. The gift of tongues is one of the 9 charismatic gifts found in 1 Corinthinans 12.
I myself don’t usually experience emotional or sensational things when praying in tongues. It’s not about letting my inhibitions go at all. I just open my mouth and the words come out. I don’t in any way control them. It’s rarely an emotional sort of hyped up experience.
The devil likes making either/or’s out of what Scripture insists are both/and’s. It’s not at all a “sacraments” vs. “charisms” sort of thing. They’re both important aspects of the Christian life. But the entire activity of the Church, as Sacrosanctum Concilium noted, is not exhausted with the celebration of Mass. Everything flows to and from the Mass, but that is NOT meant to be all we do as Christians. Yes, live the sacramental life. But live out the sacraments and the graces you have received from them. Scripture shows us this is through using those particular charisms the Spirit has given you.
Being charismatic is not “emotionalism”. At least, not according to the Church.
@DianaCC: please be charitable. To deny the authenticity of the charism of tongues is to contradict the teachings of Scripture and the Church. You sound very angry. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that you’ve had a very bad experience with charismatics, or perhaps Protestant Pentecostals. Your arguments aren’t very logical though… is everyone who ‘supports’ the gift of tongues simply the product of a secularized culture that downplays rational thought? That really doesn’t make sense.
The question should be - why shouldn’t someone pray in tongues? Why shouldn’t someone desire this gift? What on earth do you stand to gain by deliberately turning away from any gift of the Holy Spirit? I want all I can get, because I need all the help I can get! I want to adore God in the Holy Spirit! I want to sing to the Lord a new song! I want to cry out with a hundred thousand tongues! The fruits of this are of course immense. Why should anyone be against this?
@ centurionguard: just to clarify, tongues isn’t one of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those 7 are conferred by sanctifying grace at Confirmation to everyone. All confirmed Catholics receive those gifts, they are sacramental. They are wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude, and fear of the lord. The gift of tongues is one of the 9 charismatic gifts found in 1 Corinthinans 12.
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centurionguard
Guest
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DianaCC
Guest
I haven’t had any bad experiences with charismatics or pentecostals, but I have noticed that charismaticism leads to disobedience, sexual immorality, emotionalism, and heresy, while pentecostalism in particular leads to outright denial of the trinity. Those are some pretty significant fruits, and if I sound angry about all this it’s out of charity. The charism of tongues is real, but the gibberish thing is not the charism of tongues.
If that particular argument I made in Post #45 sounds illogical to you, then that’s my point. I was saying that Centurion’s arguments were illogical and I gave an example arguing from the other side. He was saying I’m not smart enough and not humble enough to see the truth of the matter, and I turned the tables on him and said well maybe he’s just not wise enough or temperate enough to see through it. You can’t say someone is right or wrong about something just because of their personal qualities.
But I think the more important question is not why you should or shouldn’t pray in tongues, but rather what is and is not the real charism of tongues? And a second important question is, you’ve got people in the charismatic community training others in how to do this, but why aren’t people going around training others in the charisms of prophecy and miracles? My guess, it’s because prophecy and miracles are way harder to counterfeit.
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vardaquinn
Guest
@ DianaCC: I myself have seen the opposite of what you describe. In fact, the gift of tongues seems to be an immense help in the area of sexual morality. The charismatics I know, particularly the priests, are the most obedient Catholics I know - and I know a LOT of very orthodox and holy and good non-charismatic Catholics. Emotionalism may be the case with some individuals, but be careful of judging people when you really don’t know, and cannot know, the whole story. The fruits of it that I have seen are immense. In a charismatic parish I know of, there are MANY vocations to the priesthood and religious life - in fact a huge chunk of the local seminary and the newer priests in the diocese all come from this charismatic community. It has inspired immense evangelical activity. It has strengthened and renewed marriages, priesthoods, vocations, a radical surrender to the Lord Jesus, deep openness to the working of the Holy Spirit, miracles, conversions, devotion to Mary, loyalty to the Church, genuine spiritual progress… I see more good fruits from this movement, in fact, than from any other movement in the Church today. In some places, the only part of the Church that is enduring at all are those who understand the charismatic dimension of the faith. This is something essential to the very nature of the Church, because it is the understanding of the basic working of the Body of Christ - through the gifts and the ministry of charisms, that each have their role in the Body. John Paul II called this co-essential, along with the institutional dimension, to the very nature of the Church. That means, where this is missing, there is something essential missing. Bl. Pope John Paul II, who called himself a “Son of Vatican II” made it his primary mission during his papacy to implement Vatican II, particularly the universal call to holiness. The two most outstanding ways he accomplished this were his huge support for new renewal movements that sought to revive the charismatic dimension, knowing that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were not exhausted in the Upper Room at Pentecost, and also his many beautifications and canonizations.
Your question is very easily answered then. Read what the Scripture says. Read the Book. It shows there are two main forms of it, specifically praising and extolling God in unknown languages, or instructing the community in languages that the speaker has not studied. It’s pretty clear from what Paul says, and what the Acts of the Apostles relates, that the first form of this is something extremely common, and something almost anyone can receive. So then - if God’s giving, then I’m taking.
Your other question is silly, because there IS training being done for prophecy and miracles. And it’s not “training”, but openness to the Holy Spirit. It’s the Holy Spirit who prophecies, who performs miracles, or gives the gift of tongues - not us. All we can do is understand these gifts, and be open and ready to use them when God wants us to. It’s not a “training” sort of thing. With the gift of tongues, usually it’s praying for the reception of this gift. There’s no instruction required really on “how to do it”. But I suppose it depends where you go.
What we need is real catechesis and teaching on these matters, since it’s a matter that’s been horribly neglected for a long time.
Your question is very easily answered then. Read what the Scripture says. Read the Book. It shows there are two main forms of it, specifically praising and extolling God in unknown languages, or instructing the community in languages that the speaker has not studied. It’s pretty clear from what Paul says, and what the Acts of the Apostles relates, that the first form of this is something extremely common, and something almost anyone can receive. So then - if God’s giving, then I’m taking.
Your other question is silly, because there IS training being done for prophecy and miracles. And it’s not “training”, but openness to the Holy Spirit. It’s the Holy Spirit who prophecies, who performs miracles, or gives the gift of tongues - not us. All we can do is understand these gifts, and be open and ready to use them when God wants us to. It’s not a “training” sort of thing. With the gift of tongues, usually it’s praying for the reception of this gift. There’s no instruction required really on “how to do it”. But I suppose it depends where you go.
What we need is real catechesis and teaching on these matters, since it’s a matter that’s been horribly neglected for a long time.
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Sherry_G
Guest
I don’t think anyone is denying that there is such a gift as “tongues”. The instances of people who have received the gift as opposed to those who are deluding themselves into thinking that all they need to do is open their mouths and rattle off some gibberish and Voila! they have received a gift from the Holy Spirit. This is what I observed in my prayer group that caused me to depart from it. Of course, God bestows His gifts where He will. The gifts of Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety and Fear of the Lord are distributed in varying degrees.
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vardaquinn
Guest
Well, I’m sure there are definitely people either purposefully faking it, or who are confused and believe they have it when they don’t. In my case, and in the case of the people I know who have it, it’s pretty clear that it is genuine. When I received the gift of tongues, there was a distinct difference between trying to say just anything in gibberish, and then all of a sudden my throat and my mouth were practically moving of their own accord and sounds I wasn’t choosing came out. It felt quite weird at first, because my mouth was being used in ways I’d never really used before in new languages.
The 7 gifts are actually all given to everyone, through the sacrament of confirmation. Everyone receives those 7 gifts. The charisms, particularly the 9 in 1 Corinthians 12, are distributed in varying degrees to different individuals for different purposes, so that there is a complementary diversity in the Mystical Body of Christ.
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DianaCC
Guest
That’s odd. I thought self-control was one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
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Samson01
Guest
For some time I was having weird experiences and though I tend to be traditional in worship, sought some help from charismatics in discerning. Though some where quite nice folks in general, the emotional flakiness turned me off. When I started to question the situation, one said I was a devil, just days after calling me a prophet in the correct sense of the word. That has left me really doubting the movement that seems to cause much division within the Church. Confusion doesn’t surprise me.
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vardaquinn
Guest
But I’m not giving up my self-control. I begin praying in tongues, I open my mouth, I give the Holy Spirit something to work with. I can then control exactly when I want to stop. The only thing I don’t control is what words come out, and thus how my mouth moves exactly to form those words.
@Samson01: Well, not everyone makes use of basic common sense. You’ll find people who say stupid things, or who rub you the wrong way, in any movement though. There’s certainly problems with the people in the movement.
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Samson01
Guest
This was in a public forum, actually one of the largest charismatic forums I know off. Nobody offered a different view or has in the 2 years since it was posted.
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vardaquinn
Guest
Well, I don’t know any of the details, but I certainly wouldn’t go judging the movement by that. Anyway, people unfortunately all around tend to say stupid things on the internet, and that is almost never a good judgment of reality.
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DianaCC
Guest
I don’t want to split hairs about what constitutes self-control, but what just came out of your mouth is why I know the whole gibberish thing has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Sorry, but that’s my considered opinion after years of experience.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear DianaCC,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
May I just say that I fully understand your grave misgivings respecting glossolalia or tongue speaking. However, what is surely required is an appraisal of the Pentecostal movement as a whole, including the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church.
The Pentecostal movement, in both its denominational and its interdenominational forms, claims to be in essence a renewal of neglected but authentic elements in Christianity - namely, the gift of tongues, prophecy and healing charisms. Charismatic Christians dogmatically declare that they have rediscovered the apostolic gifts of the New Testament and that, moreover, the charismatic life of the early days of Christianity is normative for the Church in the 21st. century. They even go so far as to claim that the neglect of such gifts has sorely impoverished the Church and deprived it of the “full Gospel”, leading to supposed clericalism and lifeless perfunctory ceremonialism.
Miraculous powers, such as the gift of tongues, were largely conferred on the early Church for the confirmation of faith, and in witness of the divine origin of Christ’s holy religion. Their end being accomplished and Christianity firmly planted in the world, they were gradually withdrawn. That certain of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit were withdrawn can be deduced from Sacred Scripture itself. The writer to the Hebrews, writing shortly before the sacking of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, looks back to the early days of the Gospel age and refering to the Apostolic ministry states, “It *was *declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will” (Heb. 2: 3b-4, emphasis mine). You will observe the past tense in which the writer speaks concerning the extraordinary gifts, as if they were no longer the norm or everyday occurrences, which is what we should expect once the Faith had been established within the then known world. However, it is most unreasonable to contend, as the Charismatics are wont to do, that we should expect the continuous manifestation of these extraordinary gifts when there is now no new Gospel to confirm; when a building has been erected the scafolding is removed, for it is no longer required. These gifts were were part of the credentials of the Apostles as the authoritative agents of God in founding the Church, indeed, St. Paul actually does refer to these gifts as the “signs of a true apostle” (II Cor. 12: 12). Their function thus confined them distinctively to the fledgling Church and they necessarily passed away with it when they had served their purpose. The miracles that accompanied the Apostolic ministry, whether it was speaking in foriegn languages, healing the sick, or raising the dead, were all intended to authenticate the divine message that they proclaimed - “And they (the Apostles) went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it” (St. Mark 16: 20, parenthesis mine for clarification).
It is often remarked that Sacred Scripture nowhere states that any of the gifts have ceased, but this in not quite true as I have shown from the Hebrews passage cited above, which does refer to the miraculous apostolic ministry in the past tense. In any case, why should the bible have to explicitly state that the extraordinary gifts have long since passed away? Sacred Scripture nowhere exlicitly states that infants should be baptized, but it is, nevertheless, something that is quite correctly deduced from the bible. Obviously the New Testament reflects the growth of the early Church period up until the end of the first century AD, so we should not expect chapter and verse verification that the miraculous gifts have ceased, but their are certainly intimations that that was indeed the case.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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