Confused, and I guess I am not a real Catholic..

[MarieaGrace]

I have read your posts and i find it difficult to present the catholic beliefs if i do not know them. Believe it or not i have read them and i think they are similar to protestant beliefs but with the exception that you must submit to the Vatican, and it is not in the bible, and very hard to understand for anyone who is in opposition to some of the rules. I cannot agree with all of them, but i find it very interesting, old but almost like having a Monarchy like the King and Queen of a country. So much like that, but i live in America and get that feeling like the King of England came over here and we have to run him back to England, wasn’t that the way it was like with the puritans? I guess i am as American as apple pie i just don’t get allot of it, even the apparitions how do you know they are true? not because the Pope said so is it? One man cannot have that much say it just don’t seem right because he doesn’t even live here and he controls people here, that is spooky:shrug: Don’t you think? However i do feel connected to Pope John Paul only because i did have a dream of a danger around him and the next day he was shot at.I called the Catholic church and they wanted to know more about the dream because i called before it happened. called my local church because i knew 2 people that were ordained there, they were my friends.They called me back that night and the Arch Bishop wanted to know more but i could not remember much then what i told them. Truly marieagrace

 

[Mike2010]

Well maybe I am a bit lazy and ignorant. I just know that I honestly accept His birth, death and resurrection. My redeemer liveth. If I close my eyes for the last time tonight and I go to hell cause I didn’t go to confession or something, then I guess I am …ya know…

We have to remember that God has amazing mercy for all of us. He loves us and wants us to be with Him.

I would suggest reading on Sister Faustina, and pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. It can be very powerful. Pray it when you are by yourself or in front of the Tabernacle.

Here is a link on how to pray it from EWTN: ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

Do not be discouraged, God knows our fallen nature (but this doesn’t dismiss that you should have a relentless pursuit to always be with Christ and strive to be holy, for it is a lifelong journey in the faith), and He has tremendous mercy.

God Bless

 

[justamoose89]

I have read your posts and i find it difficult to present the catholic beliefs if i do not know them. Believe it or not i have read them and i think they are similar to protestant beliefs but with the exception that you must submit to the Vatican, and it is not in the bible, and very hard to understand for anyone who is in opposition to some of the rules. I cannot agree with all of them, but i find it very interesting, old but almost like having a Monarchy like the King and Queen of a country. So much like that, but i live in America and get that feeling like the King of England came over here and we have to run him back to England, wasn’t that the way it was like with the puritans? I guess i am as American as apple pie i just don’t get allot of it, even the apparitions how do you know they are true? not because the Pope said so is it? One man cannot have that much say it just don’t seem right because he doesn’t even live here and he controls people here, that is spooky:shrug: Don’t you think? However i do feel connected to Pope John Paul only because i did have a dream of a danger around him and the next day he was shot at.I called the Catholic church and they wanted to know more about the dream because i called before it happened. called my local church because i knew 2 people that were ordained there, they were my friends.They called me back that night and the Arch Bishop wanted to know more but i could not remember much then what i told them. Truly marieagrace

We dont believe that we have to submit to the Vatican per se. I mean, what happens if a nuclear weapon went off in Vatican City and it was uninhabitable? Sorry to be morbid but our loyalty isn’t to “the Vatican”, its to the Pope. Why, he’s just a man, right? Because we know he’s guided by the Holy Spirit! The Pope is the successor of Peter. In Matt 16, Jesus tells Peter that He will build His church on Peter, and that the gates of Hades will not overcome it

You’re right, it doesn’t say you must submit to the Vatican in the Bible (because the Vatican wasn’t around) but it does talk about having properly ordained bishops and says we should be accountable.

Something that I found really helpful, (and I hope you will find it helpful in your journey) is that throughout the Old Testament, there was always some sort of spiritual authority that God was speaking though, whether it be judges, prophets, etc. Today, He left us Peter and his successors!

About apparitions: there are a ton of people that claim they have seen apparitions and such, but the Vatican only recognizes a handful. There is actually a very deep process that comes with trying to figure out if an apparition was real. I’m not really sure of all of it, but I know they’re very careful to make sure the person who saw it wasn’t just making it up. Also, as Catholics we aren’t required to believe that the apparitions happened. But I think that if enough careful research went into one and we discovered that it happened, then I believe that it did.

Hope this was helpful!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle Marie, you don’t know that I haven’t tried. I don’t tell ppl not to inform their consciences. And I never tell anyone the Church says it’s ok unless you mean when I quote CCC about the conscience.

Go back and re-read what I said. I said you tell them it’s ok…I never said that you tell them that the Church says its ok.

 

[CMatt25]

Go back and re-read what I said. I said you tell them it’s ok…I never said that you tell them that the Church says its ok.

I don’t tell them that either unless you mean by the example I set after I have informed my conscience but then still follow it.

CCC 1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

Peace.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t tell them that either unless you mean by the example I set after I have informed my conscience but then still follow it.

.

You don’t need to quote back to me every time from the CC…I get it…you can cut and paste…and you are very good about “informing” your concience…about the pieces you want to.

But you have told people such things, for example, with the Eucharistic fast…that they are fine or not to sweat it if they don’t do a full hour. It’s one thing if you want to be in error (I know, you don’t think you are), but entirely another when you tell people that they really aren’t.

To me…IMHO…if seems if you just like thumbing your nose at the rules and dancing a fine line…I’m just pointing out that it is sour fruit that you are producing.:twocents:

It’s not like you are really going to listen anyway:shrug:

 

[crazzeto]

I don’t tell them that either unless you mean by the example I set after I have informed my conscience but then still follow it.

CCC 1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

Peace.

Funny how you stopped reading at paragraph 1790,

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

You have a right to follow your conscience, but you have a greater responcibility to properly form your conscience. If you obstiantly choose not to, and obstiantly choose to thumb your nose at the teachings of the Church, and persist in error, and partaking in the sacraments… Well, I just personally can’t imagine that is a good thing. At the very least that certainly isn’t a course of action in which I would delight. I certainly wouldn’t spread whatever error I personally commit (and I do commit error personally, i.e. sin something which I try to stop).

 

[CMatt25]

You don’t need to quote back to me every time from the CC…I get it…you can cut and paste…and you are very good about “informing” your concience…about the pieces you want to.

But you have told people such things, for example, with the Eucharistic fast…that they are fine or not to sweat it if they don’t do a full hour. It’s one thing if you want to be in error (I know, you don’t think you are), but entirely another when you tell people that they really aren’t.

To me…IMHO…if seems if you just like thumbing your nose at the rules and dancing a fine line…I’m just pointing out that it is sour fruit that you are producing.:twocents:

It’s not like you are really going to listen anyway:shrug:

Apparently I do And no I do a very good job at informing my conscience of all pieces of Catholic teaching. Informing is one thing. Forcing it to abide by something against its will is another.

If that’s their conscience not to fast a full hr, then that’s their conscience. And I never deny I am in error according to the CC on some things. And I know you and the CC think I’m in error.

I listen to my conscience after informing it. Thanks for your opinion though. God bless! :coffeeread:

 

[CMatt25]

Funny how you stopped reading at paragraph 1790,

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

You have a right to follow your conscience, but you have a greater responcibility to properly form your conscience. If you obstiantly choose not to, and obstiantly choose to thumb your nose at the teachings of the Church, and persist in error, and partaking in the sacraments… Well, I just personally can’t imagine that is a good thing. At the very least that certainly isn’t a course of action in which I would delight. I certainly wouldn’t spread whatever error I personally commit (and I do commit error personally, i.e. sin something which I try to stop).

Who said I stopped reading? But if “upright and truthful” equates to indoctrination regardless of what the conscience still says following being informed, then that is not using reason. That is disobeying the conscience (I won’t quote what happens when you do that so Annabelle Marie doesn’t object to me posting CCC) and turning it over to what another human says it should be. If you want to do that because you believe it, great! Indeed follow your conscience! And peace and God bless you along your way.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Funny how you stopped reading at paragraph 1790,

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

You have a right to follow your conscience, but you have a greater responcibility to properly form your conscience. If you obstiantly choose not to, and obstiantly choose to thumb your nose at the teachings of the Church, and persist in error, and partaking in the sacraments… Well, I just personally can’t imagine that is a good thing. At the very least that certainly isn’t a course of action in which I would delight. I certainly wouldn’t spread whatever error I personally commit (and I do commit error personally, i.e. sin something which I try to stop).

AMEN!

 

[MarieaGrace]

We dont believe that we have to submit to the Vatican per se. I mean, what happens if a nuclear weapon went off in Vatican City and it was uninhabitable? Sorry to be morbid but our loyalty isn’t to “the Vatican”, its to the Pope. Why, he’s just a man, right? Because we know he’s guided by the Holy Spirit! The Pope is the successor of Peter. In Matt 16, Jesus tells Peter that He will build His church on Peter, and that the gates of Hades will not overcome it

You’re right, it doesn’t say you must submit to the Vatican in the Bible (because the Vatican wasn’t around) but it does talk about having properly ordained bishops and says we should be accountable.

Something that I found really helpful, (and I hope you will find it helpful in your journey) is that throughout the Old Testament, there was always some sort of spiritual authority that God was speaking though, whether it be judges, prophets, etc. Today, He left us Peter and his successors!

About apparitions: there are a ton of people that claim they have seen apparitions and such, but the Vatican only recognizes a handful. There is actually a very deep process that comes with trying to figure out if an apparition was real. I’m not really sure of all of it, but I know they’re very careful to make sure the person who saw it wasn’t just making it up. Also, as Catholics we aren’t required to believe that the apparitions happened. But I think that if enough careful research went into one and we discovered that it happened, then I believe that it did.

Hope this was helpful!

Hello, you are right about authority throughout the bible, and i now understand what you are talking about, i have asked allot of question in 1 1/2 years and it could be sinking in. When i first talked to a catholic they seemed to talk different and i was not on the same key, tone, or level, they were always taking me serious and me the same. Catholics sound rude at times and demanding etc. I just have a hard time with people that are one way only. Meaning you think all the same and there is no other way etc. Today i was reading the Popes message and i was shocked now i might have read it wrong but i was very upset because he said that no priest could have porn of children that were under 14 years old and i still am shocked Am i reading it wrong? it came from a catholic site, would i get in trouble to bring it here and show you? Could be i am reading it wrong?

 

[justamoose89]

Hello, you are right about authority throughout the bible, and i now understand what you are talking about, i have asked allot of question in 1 1/2 years and it could be sinking in. When i first talked to a catholic they seemed to talk different and i was not on the same key, tone, or level, they were always taking me serious and me the same. Catholics sound rude at times and demanding etc. I just have a hard time with people that are one way only. Meaning you think all the same and there is no other way etc. Today i was reading the Popes message and i was shocked now i might have read it wrong but i was very upset because he said that no priest could have porn of children that were under 14 years old and i still am shocked Am i reading it wrong? it came from a catholic site, would i get in trouble to bring it here and show you? Could be i am reading it wrong?

I think what you’re referring to is the new statement issued by the Vatican that talks about the new policy for priests and abuses. I didn’t read the article you’re referring to, but I think what they meant was that if a priest has porn of children, he will be defrocked. A priest having porn of any kind is wrong, of course. To be defrocked means to take away his priestly privileges. He won’t be a priest anymore.

Sort of like what happens if someone who isn’t a priest has porn of children. They get a big fat stamp on their drivers license and they have to be registered sex offenders and all that (or prison, depending). But having porn of adults, well, thats not illegal, however wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

Apparently I do And no I do a very good job at informing my conscience of all pieces of Catholic teaching. Informing is one thing. Forcing it to abide by something against its will is another.

If that’s their conscience not to fast a full hr, then that’s their conscience.

The only two ways one’s conscience would permit this would be if the person did not know about the one-hour fast, or if they would be harmed by observing it.

If you know about the one-hour fast, and would not be harmed by observing it, then there are no issues of conscience whatsoever on the table - it is simply a matter of choosing to obey, or choosing not to obey it. Where would your conscience even come into it?

 

[CMatt25]

I think what you’re referring to is the new statement issued by the Vatican that talks about the new policy for priests and abuses. I didn’t read the article you’re referring to, but I think what they meant was that if a priest has porn of children, he will be defrocked.

Neiher did I read the statement. But if MarieaGrace is right and it said porn of children under 14 then if they have porn of a child 15, they won’t be defrocked?

 

[CMatt25]

The only two ways one’s conscience would permit this would be if the person did not know about the one-hour fast, or if they would be harmed by observing it.

If you know about the one-hour fast, and would not be harmed by observing it, then there are no issues of conscience whatsoever on the table - it is simply a matter of choosing to obey, or choosing not to obey it. Where would your conscience even come into it?

Where the conscience says the fast needs not be obeyed. But of course in that case, as the CCC prescribes, a man must be free to personally make moral decisions and not be forced to act contrary to conscience especially in religious matters, so as not to condemn himself.

 

[justamoose89]

Neiher did I read the statement. But if MarieaGrace is right and it said porn of children under 14 then if they have porn of a child 15, they won’t be defrocked?

I’m pretty sure it has to do with whether or not 15 is considered “child” porn. Different countries have different laws about this sort of thing. Its about differentiating between pre and post pubescent kids. Its one thing if a priest is looking at child porn, quite another if they are looking at adult porn. Just to clarify, they are both morally wrong, but this is a matter of legality. Child porn is illegal while adult porn isn’t.

 

[jmcrae]

Where the conscience says the fast needs not be obeyed.

Where is the issue of conscience (harm to self or others) that would come into play?

Without having an issue of conscience on the table, it’s not your conscience telling you anything - it’s just your fleshly appetites, and your base nature, and your personal opinion.

But of course in that case, as the CCC prescribes, a man must be free to personally make moral decisions and not be forced to act contrary to conscience especially in religious matters, so as not to condemn himself.

Right. If it seems to you that observing the one-hour fast would be harmful to yourself or to someone else, then you certainly must not do it. (Even if later it turns out that you were incorrect - if you are firmly convinced in your own mind that someone will be harmed if you do this, then you must not do it.)

Outside of that, however, there is no reason of conscience not to do it.

 

[CMatt25]

Where is the issue of conscience (harm to self or others) that would come into play?

Without having an issue of conscience on the table, it’s not your conscience telling you anything - it’s just your fleshly appetites, and your base nature, and your personal opinion.

If you are sayng only unless harm would be done, one must otherwise indoctrinate the mind and conscience against its free judgement. Then in a nearly robotically manner, act against it and condemn oneself as a result (according to CCC 1782/1790), that is an opinion of which I do not share. But thanks for your opinion of the conscience and blessings to you along your journey. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m pretty sure it has to do with whether or not 15 is considered “child” porn. Different countries have different laws about this sort of thing. Its about differentiating between pre and post pubescent kids. Its one thing if a priest is looking at child porn, quite another if they are looking at adult porn. Just to clarify, they are both morally wrong, but this is a matter of legality. Child porn is illegal while adult porn isn’t.

Thanx. Interesting though in that case how the Vatican can define puberty as not having begun yet in any 14 yr olds and adulthood at 15.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What Martin Luther had to say on the subject intrigued me. When we go to confession, confess our lustful thoughts at either pornography or a woman we work with, whatever, we are forgiven by the power of Christ through the priest. When we leave, we run into a gorgeous blonde on the street and start having lustful, sexual desires about her. The NATURE of our sinfulness has NOT changed at all. The specific instance where we had the specific thought may have been forgiven, but our problem persists. And Christ tells us in the Gospels that if we lust in our hearts for a woman, it’s the same as adultery, as actually cheating on our wives! So Luther talked about this reality, that the sin is persistent, a part of our tainted fallen nature, and that the entire human nature needs salvation, the entire spiritual body, not just surgery on one specific area of that spiritual body. With confession we focus on individual instances and forget the overall nature is so despoiled and tainted that the great healer, the great physician who is Christ is the only answer through FAITH, not just going to confession and doing penances and indulgences. It is faith in Christ who heals the entire person through vitue of the blood of the Cross. The operative salvific vehicle is faith. Our own works of penance and going to confession only but band aids on a thousand lacerations. That was Luther’s approach a la the Roland Bainton characterization of it.

I guess, I don’t know. I am just confused.

On another note, I don’t deliberately sin after confession, but lets say if I see a woman on the street that may look attractive, sure I may think impure thoughts. That’s just natural at times. Furthermore, Dismas may have confessed, but it was directly to Christ, he was allowed, but I am not? I have to go to a priest or it’s just useless?