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MarieaGrace
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Thanx. Interesting though in that case how the Vatican can define puberty as not having begun yet in any 14 yr olds and adulthood at 15.
Thanx. Interesting though in that case how the Vatican can define puberty as not having begun yet in any 14 yr olds and adulthood at 15.
I don’t know what the basis for your conscience is, but the basis for mine is, 1. Does it do harm? 2. If it does no harm, what does the Church teach about it? 3. If the Church makes no ruling on it, would it be edifying to others, or would it cause a stumbling block to them?If you are sayng only unless harm would be done, one must otherwise indoctrinate the mind and conscience against its free judgement.
Going against your personal opinions or your private judgement has nothing to do with your conscience, and nor would it cause you to become a robot. There are often times when we have to go in a way that we don’t happen to like - it’s part of the discipline that life gives us, to teach us to put others ahead of ourselves, and, far from becoming a robot, you would become a very pleasant person to be around - generous, kind, and pleasant to speak with.Then in a nearly robotically manner, act against it and condemn oneself as a result (according to CCC 1782/1790), that is an opinion of which I do not share.
Hi MarieaGrace, I understand you were just stating what you thought Benedict’s message was saying. I won’t go as far to say most men are now going to do this because they think the Pope said it’s ok. But I most certainly echo your concerns about the sound of it based on what I just read in America, a national Catholic weekly magazine. (Probably not a favorite magazine of many here on CAF because of it’s Jesuit ties but it was one of the first items popping up in my google search about the Pope’s message.) Anyway if he means a priest will be defrocked if caught with porn of children under age 14 but not if the porn is of someone 15 to 18, then I have concerns about such a policy as well.lease if you were to read it then you would see that it is just what i thought he said that it was ok to view if the child is 14 and over. This should never be allowed and if he said it’s ok he is breaking our laws in this country even if his country it is different.I am confused still, and don’t like the sound of it.Most men are going to be dong this now thinking the Pope said it was ok. Do you know what i am saying? puberty is one thing but adulthood really is when you are ready not your age.Children should be in school and learning and not at the abortion mills and having babies because in this country you cannot work etc. If at puberty you are of age then they all should be able to drink, smoke, quit school, have children, see rated x movies, drive cars all the time, Go to bars, dance naked . can you see what it leads to? they can even be in a playboy magazine etc.These rules are contrary to our rules in this country and should be in he churches all over.
The basis for my conscience includes the 3 parts of your basis but does not stop there.I don’t know what the basis for your conscience is, but the basis for mine is, 1. Does it do harm? 2. If it does no harm, what does the Church teach about it? 3. If the Church makes no ruling on it, would it be edifying to others, or would it cause a stumbling block to them?
Going against your personal opinions or your private judgement has nothing to do with your conscience, and nor would it cause you to become a robot. There are often times when we have to go in a way that we don’t happen to like - it’s part of the discipline that life gives us, to teach us to put others ahead of ourselves, and, far from becoming a robot, you would become a very pleasant person to be around - generous, kind, and pleasant to speak with.
I think it’s good to contemplate and pray. However, for the sake of your Final Judgement, it would be essential to keep all of your contemplations within the realm of conscience, so as to avoid any dangers of following your own intellect, or your own judgement, or your own emotional response or sense of pride. Be certain that what you are following is, indeed, from outside of yourself, and not from anything within yourself, lest at the Final Judgement, instead of meeting Jesus, you are simply handed a mirror, and then told to look upon your god.The basis for my conscience includes the 3 parts of your basis but does not stop there.
Once I determine any potential harm or lack thereof and inform my conscience of what the Church teaches or does not teach about something, and the effect on others, I then study, use my own God given brain in which to think and reason with, contemplate and pray.
Contemplate and pray some more.
And then do lots and lots and lots of further praying.
It is not something I take at all lightly and it is not until I have done all of these things in multiplication that my conscience is eventually formed on something.
You can call it what you want. But it is no more a personal opinion nor a private judgment than your faith beliefs are. Nor does it necssarily make one less pleasant, kind or generous than someone who assents to all Catholic teaching and thought. But I trust you were not implying such was the case. In any case it is my conscience as I believe the Holy Spirit is leading me. Of which I must be free to form and must not disobey or else condemn myself.
I hope this helps you understand my basis, Jmcrare, and God bless you always in your lifelong journey of faith with Him and in the discernment of His Holy Spirit.
If we open our hearts and minds to God’s Sprirt, He will let us know where He wants us to be.
As we all walk together united :grouphug: in the One most important of all, Whom is far greater than any differences any of us may have… Peace.
I think it’s good to contemplate and pray. However, for the sake of your Final Judgement, it would be essential to keep all of your contemplations within the realm of conscience, so as to avoid any dangers of following your own intellect, or your own judgement, or your own emotional response or sense of pride. Be certain that what you are following is, indeed, from outside of yourself, and not from anything within yourself, lest at the Final Judgement, instead of meeting Jesus, you are simply handed a mirror, and then told to look upon your god.
Yes more or less. Gurney, you know you always make at least some sense.I have often heard the point made, and think there’s some truth to it, that we all follow our own judgment and intellect when we succumb to the papacy. We have to first decide intellectually that the Church is what it says it is. We have to analyze it, study it, and make a judgment call. We use our own reasoning and perceptions of truth and history, theology, etc. to submit and say, “the pope is infallible, I will follow his teachings.” So in some way, one way or another, we are following our own intellects and rationale and an emotional response in choosing Catholicism. We might change our opinions, for example, going from being pro-choice to pro-life because the pope tells us the importance of the life issue, but initially we had to choose intellectually to follow the pope in the first place to allow him to inform our intellect. Am I making sense here?![]()
Um, what about what Jesus teaches us, and the Holy Spirit has guaranteed is truth? The fact that a human being ‘speaks’ the guaranteed truth of what Jesus has revealed doesn’t mean that this comes ‘from the human’.Yes more or less. Gurney, you know you always make at least some sense.
Initially we must indeed place our faith in our study, reasoning, analysis, and personal judgement calls. Always in mind we walk by faith not by sight. I would though as such just offer some caution in any of us being so presumptous to think we for certain have every “i” dotted and “t” crossed correctly in all matters of faith. And that includes if we choose to follow and believe what another human being indoctrinates our minds and consciences with.
Peace.
There is a difference, I think, between analyzing various different outside sources of information on the basis of their own merits, and making a decision that “I don’t like being told what to do” and rejecting the Papacy entirely out of hand based on that - or, choosing the Papacy based upon, “Well, I’m feeling insecure, and I feel the need of someone to tell me what to do, and the Papacy is as good as anything else.” That would also be a flimsy basis for faith.I have often heard the point made, and think there’s some truth to it, that we all follow our own judgment and intellect when we succumb to the papacy.
Yes, but we also have to do this based on outside information - history, Scripture, and tradition. Not based on our interior judgements of “I think” and “I like” etc.We have to first decide intellectually that the Church is what it says it is.
Well, hopefully we’re using the process of logic that we learned in school (again, an outside source of information not based on personal judgement), of first collecting the data, then compiling it, and then analyzing it, without prejudging the outcome.We have to analyze it, study it, and make a judgment call. We use our own reasoning and perceptions of truth and history, theology, etc. to submit and say, “the pope is infallible, I will follow his teachings.”
Others besides Catholics believe they are taught correctly by their leaders who they believe speak the truth as well.Um, what about what Jesus teaches us, and the Holy Spirit has guaranteed is truth? The fact that a human being ‘speaks’ the guaranteed truth of what Jesus has revealed doesn’t mean that this comes ‘from the human’.
And ‘indoctrinates’, sheesh, nothing biased about the use of that word as opposed to ‘taught’ now is there?
Matt, you’re twisting in the wind here, blown first in one direction and then another because you will not ‘cling’ to any foundation. You think there is no way that the foundation could not be ‘corrupted’. You think the only way to be free is to reject any possibility of absolute truth in the Church (or any other church) and to accept or reject whatever you find anywhere that you --you!–judge is ‘right’ according to your limited, finite, human conscience which is not necessarily formed correctly, no matter how ‘sincerely’ you think you have ‘formed it.’ (I’d be a little more likely to think that you WERE sincere in your searching if it weren’t for the fact that you use such highly colored and biased language about the things you reject. Just my opinion though.)
If Jesus taught more than what you think he ‘clearly’ taught (and He assuredly did, otherwise you would not find some things ‘unclear’, and you are ONLY following what you find ‘clear’, you are not completely following Jesus. And even what you ‘think’ is clear, if it contradicts Catholic teachings as at least SOME of what you claim is ‘clearly taught according to you and your conscience’, then even the incomplete teachings you follow aren’t being followed correctly.Others besides Catholics believe they are taught correctly by their leaders who they believe speak the truth as well.
And I don’t blow around in the wind when I have Jesus to cling to. I cling to my faith in Him and those things He clearly taught. Love. Peace. Concern for the poor, the homeless, the sick. I do not think He is corrupted. And neither do I judge myself right on everything any more tha I judge you right on everything. So I truly have no idea what you are talking about in insinuating that I do.
But God bless you and peace.
He also very clearly taught that the office of Peter (also called the Papacy) was the foundation of His Church.Others besides Catholics believe they are taught correctly by their leaders who they believe speak the truth as well.
And I don’t blow around in the wind when I have Jesus to cling to. I cling to my faith in Him and those things He clearly taught. Love. Peace. Concern for the poor, the homeless, the sick.
Can you see the difference between faith and belief vs the knowledge that another human being got it all correct? We can believe in history and Scripture all we want. But in the end it comes down to faith and belief. Whether we have a difficult time understanding that or not. Peace.There is a difference, I think, between analyzing various different outside sources of information on the basis of their own merits, and making a decision that “I don’t like being told what to do” and rejecting the Papacy entirely out of hand based on that - or, choosing the Papacy based upon, “Well, I’m feeling insecure, and I feel the need of someone to tell me what to do, and the Papacy is as good as anything else.” That would also be a flimsy basis for faith.
Can you see the difference between seeing that the Papacy was established by Christ in the Scriptures, and noticing that it carries on through every generation since - and basing a decision to follow it on that outside information - or basing the decision on interior judgements - “I want” - “I like” - “I think” - etc.
Yes, but we also have to do this based on outside information - history, Scripture, and tradition. Not based on our interior judgements of “I think” and “I like” etc.
Well, hopefully we’re using the process of logic that we learned in school (again, an outside source of information not based on personal judgement), of first collecting the data, then compiling it, and then analyzing it, without prejudging the outcome.![]()
Do you believe that Jesus got it all correct? It was Jesus who established Peter as our first Pope, and gave us the Church, and promised it, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail.” Was He wrong about that?Can you see the difference between faith and belief vs the knowledge that another human being got it all correct?
It’s a firm foundation to rest on. Whatever contradicts it is incorrect - even if I feel that it couldn’t possibly be, based on an emotional reaction.We can believe in history and Scripture all we want.
Not an empty faith or just any belief, though. It’s firmly established in solid reality, without any kind of “what’s true for me,” as if truth - as if reality - were dependent upon the observer.But in the end it comes down to faith and belief.
The difference between you and I, Tantum, is yes I believe Jesus clearly taught essentials and the rest is all interpretation by men, differences none of which are as important as those essentials in His Gospel which you mentioned as being found among various other groups as well.If Jesus taught more than what you think he ‘clearly’ taught (and He assuredly did, otherwise you would not find some things ‘unclear’, and you are ONLY following what you find ‘clear’, you are not completely following Jesus. And even what you ‘think’ is clear, if it contradicts Catholic teachings as at least SOME of what you claim is ‘clearly taught according to you and your conscience’, then even the incomplete teachings you follow aren’t being followed correctly.
I’m not judging you. . .but Jesus never said that we could not judge actions as right or wrong; in fact He encouraged it. Why would He have asked His disciples to preach His teachings if the average pagan or Jew was following his conscience and thus was pretty much doing all the ‘love, peace and justice’ (certainly the Jewish people are pretty solid in teaching that, and as far as those, the Greeks and Romans, Buddists, and even the Muslims are all for ‘love, peace and justice’ but their ideas don’t necessarily contain all the truth of those concepts. )
So if we can just bumble along secure in doing what our ‘conscience’ teaches, and not requiring any more of any one else, why did Jesus want His gospel spread? There must be ‘more’ to it than peace, love and justice and helping the poor etc. because you know, those have all been ‘written on the human heart’ and to an extent practiced (in a limited way) by all peoples. . .
Do you think Jesus’s teachings are limited only to the above? What makes Him more than other ‘teachers’ and wise people teaching the same stuff about Love your Neighbor, strive for peace, work for justice and help the poor?
Well sure very clearly taught that is subject to the interpretation of the Church which interprets Herself to be without err and never in need of correction by the Chief cornerstone, which is Himself alone, Christ Jesus. Anything is very clearly taught in that case.He also very clearly taught that the office of Peter (also called the Papacy) was the foundation of His Church.
Nope I do not believe Jesus was wrong. I do not believe the gates will prevail in the end. He’s Jesus. Whom I believe is God. So I believe He is fully capable of making certain that does not happen.Do you believe that Jesus got it all correct? It was Jesus who established Peter as our first Pope, and gave us the Church, and promised it, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail.” Was He wrong about that?![]()
Well, between you and me, Matt, I can’t understand where you came up with your ‘interpretations’. For sure they are not Biblical nor are they traditional–and that doesn’t really leave anything other than human error (not err) on your part.The difference between you and I, Tantum, is yes I believe Jesus clearly taught essentials and the rest is all interpretation by men, differences none of which are as important as those essentials in His Gospel which you mentioned as being found among various other groups as well.
And I am humble enough not to presume I nor any other human to ever live on the planet, has or has ever had the rest of everything all figured out exactly right down to every dotted “i” and crossed “t”.
But what makes Him more is my faith, indeed our faith, Tantum, and belief that He, God, died on the cross for my sins and for yours. For all our sins. Was buried and resurrected into heaven. And is sitting as we speak at the righthand of God our Father in heaven until He comes again. What makes Him more is our belief that He is the Savior promised.
And may He continue His blessings upon you and His peace be with you always, Tantum, as you walk your lifelong journey of faith with Him. Until that time as promised, when in faith, He, Truth, shall come again. Amen.
Sorry to butt in here dear Matt, I just gotta to say it once again, “lean not unto thine own understanding”. God bless you, that you don’t see it yet stillOthers besides Catholics believe they are taught correctly by their leaders who they believe speak the truth as well.
And I don’t blow around in the wind when I have Jesus to cling to. I cling to my faith in Him and those things He clearly taught. Love. Peace. Concern for the poor, the homeless, the sick. I do not think He is corrupted. And neither do I judge myself right on everything any more tha I judge you right on everything. So I truly have no idea what you are talking about in insinuating that I do.
But God bless you and peace.