Confused Baptist, Potential Convert...

[kaycee]

No, your response like so many Protestant-only doctrines ignores the complete deposit of faith left witht the Church. Unless you were there, you don’t know all that Jesus or the Apostles taught. Only the Church knows this.

The RCC can only guess at what “oral tradition” might be.
Apparently whatever it is, (I don’t believe there is important oral tradition) it was not important enough to document and send to the churches.

Stop trying to kidnap the word “pray”. You know darn well (or you certainly should, having spent so much time here) that praying to the saints is an entirely different matter than praying to God. Stop trying to impose your terminology on us in place of our own terminology.

Then it might be helpful to stop saying “praying to the saints” for starters.

Again, God directs no one to ask heavenly saints for prayers.

 

[Johndigger]

Apparently whatever it is, (I don’t believe there is important oral tradition) it was not important enough to document and send to the churches.

1 Thessalonians 2:13:

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the **word of God **which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Heard…oral tradition…word of God…hmmmm.

Also you, at least, believe that St. Peter was infallible when he wrote first and second Peter.

Why was he infallible when he picked up a pen - but fallible when he was speaking?

If so,
I WANT THAT PEN OF INFALLYBULLNESS!!!



JD

 

[Teflon93]

Heard…oral tradition…word of God…hmmmm.

Also you, at least, believe that St. Peter was infallible when he wrote first and second Peter.

Why was he infallible when he picked up a pen - but fallible when he was speaking?

If so,
I WANT THAT PEN OF INFALLYBULLNESS!!!



JD

Okay, THAT goes straight to my Best Of CAAF folder.

 

[VociMike]

The RCC can only guess at what “oral tradition” might be.
Apparently whatever it is, (I don’t believe there is important oral tradition) it was not important enough to document and send to the churches.

Uh, no. Every oral tradition has long since been written down. But more to the point, to say that the Church can only guess at what “oral tradition” might be is to say that the Church can only guess as to what it teaches. Now doesn’t that strike you as a ridiculous claim to make?

The Church knows quite well what it teaches. This strange obsession to divide that teaching up into “scripture” and “oral tradition” is nothing less than bizarre. It’s like asking somebody how much they learned at home, and how much they learned in school. Nobody could ever answer that question precisely.

Then it might be helpful to stop saying “praying to the saints” for starters.

Our terminology has a perfectly precise meaning. Just because you seem to think that every word should have one and only one meaning, doesn’t make it so. Take a look at the English language for thousands of counter-examples. In fact, I’m sure you don’t make the same demands of any other word useages. No, it’s only when it provides a convenient club to bash Catholicism that this becomes an issue for you.

(BTW, there are multiple words with more than one meaning in this response. Does that twist you out of shape too?)

Again, God directs no one to ask heavenly saints for prayers.

Says who? Oh, right, you’re assuming (without any justification) that everything God told us is in scripture. Well, your assumption holds zero weight with us.

 

[Teflon93]

Yes, the great Catholic conspiracy.

What the Church teaches is only accessible to the top ranks of the Opus Dei order and is buried in a vault of Vatican City.

Oh, wait, I found a link:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Yup, sure is hard to get ahold of Catholic teaching…

Now where’s the compendium of the teachings of your ecclesiastical community to be found?

 

[Teflon93]

Yes, the great Catholic conspiracy.

What the Church teaches is only accessible to the top ranks of the Opus Dei order and is buried in a vault of Vatican City.

Oh, wait, I found a link:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Yup, sure is hard to get ahold of Catholic teaching…

Now where’s the compendium of the teachings of your ecclesiastical community to be found?

 

[kaycee]

It certainly does 'appear" that way. And it may also appear to you that Jesus taught His Body was somehow divided, but it does not “appear” that way to those of us who have the teaching handed down by the Apostles. Catholics believe that Jesus did not lie when He promised to preserve the Apostles in all truth.

I have a question for you. How did Peter know that Annanias and his wife lied about the price they got for their property?

Certainly inspiration by God. Dont see the connection with prayer requests to heavenly saints.

 

[kaycee]

Now from this parable what do we see? The dead are concerned for us.
And if the rich man in hades or the abode of the dead could request such a thing, just think how much more the Saints in Heaven would be granted their requests.

More theology by rationalization.

If God wants us to talk to saints in Heaven why did he forbid communication with the dead?

If God wants us to talk to saints in Heaven why did He not explicitly say to as He does with many other things!

Does Abraham tell Lazarus to pray for his relatives?

Abraham tells Lazarus that they have God’s Word and that is the Only thing that will work (btw that is Sola Scriptura demo’d)

**They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them**.' And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’

 

[kaycee]

You are the only one making the assumption that the righteous stop being righteous and able to pray when they leave their body. In fact, to be absent from the body is to be present to the Lord.

I guess you dont understand my position then.

Yes, it was not until after most of the NT was written that martyrdoms and deaths of saints began to be memorialized. Those writers of the letters were among the first. Do you think that the Revelation of God stopped when the gospels and letters were written?

I believe that is the stance of the RCC, that after John wrote Revelation, further “revelation” ceased.

 

[VociMike]

More theology by rationalization.

If God wants us to talk to saints in Heaven why did he forbid communication with the dead?

Show me where God forbids “communication” with the dead. You can’t, because such a prohibition doesn’t exist.

If God wants us to talk to saints in Heaven why did He not explicitly say to as He does with many other things!

He did. If you accepted all of God’s revelation rather than just part of it, you’d know that.

 

[kaycee]

Then how do you explain the writings in the Catacomb’s which read: “Peter and Paul, please pray for us”?

There was many false teachers attacking the early church, where should one go to get apostolic teaching?

I am sorry, but praying to the saints was a very early Christian practice as has been shown by the quotes of the ECF’s, and the fact that there are things written in the catacomb’s which support this notion.

Several quotes from 200 years after the resurrection is hardly convincing.

 

[mtr01]

Our terminology has a perfectly precise meaning. Just because you seem to think that every word should have one and only one meaning, doesn’t make it so. Take a look at the English language for thousands of counter-examples. In fact, I’m sure you don’t make the same demands of any other word useages. No, it’s only when it provides a convenient club to bash Catholicism that this becomes an issue for you.

(BTW, there are multiple words with more than one meaning in this response. Does that twist you out of shape too?)

Wait, someone’s throwing a party for Catholicism at a bar? Can I come?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

More theology by rationalization.

If God wants us to talk to saints in Heaven why did he forbid communication with the dead?

ahem THEY ARE NOT DEAD! Or does your belief system not believe in eternal life?

If God wants us to talk to saints in Heaven why did He not explicitly say to as He does with many other things!

If God wants us to know he is Triune why did He not explicitly say so? Where in the Bible did Jesus say, “It is better to give than to receive”?

Does Abraham tell Lazarus to pray for his relatives?

Abraham tells Lazarus that they have God’s Word and that is the Only thing that will work (btw that is Sola Scriptura demo’d)

**They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them**.' And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’

Abraham is talking to the rich man, not Lazarus. The rich man was asking Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers about the torment he was in. So we’ve got Lazarus, comfy cozy, eatin’ his fill of fried chicken and mashed potatoes for the first time in his life. Would YOU have sent him back to being a beggar? Would a beggar back from the dead have had any effect on the rich man’s brothers?

You’re missing Abraham’s real point in an effort to prove Sola Scriptura when the Jews certainly did not practice it. They have this thing called a Talmud, don’t they? What’s in the Talmud?

 

[Church_Militant]

The RCC can only guess at what “oral tradition” might be.
Apparently whatever it is, (I don’t believe there is important oral tradition) it was not important enough to document and send to the churches.
Then it might be helpful to stop saying “praying to the saints” for starters.

Again, God directs no one to ask heavenly saints for prayers.

That’s not true.

The Communion of Saints

Presented by:

The Bible Christian Society
P.O. Box 424
Pleasant Grove, AL 35127

Copyright 2000, John Martignoni

Catholic Teaching
A. Catechism of the Catholic Church #946-962
1. The Communion of Saints is the Church; #946
2. All members of the one body - Christ; #947
3. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ; #953, 2 Cor 2:5, and 2 Cor 1:5
B. Communion of Saints-Underlying Principles
1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ; Rom 12:4-5, 1 Cor 12:12-13
a. Through baptism; Col 2:12; Rom 6:4,Gal 3:27
2. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ; Rom 8:38-39
3. There is only one Body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth; Eph 2:15-16; Eph 4:4
4. The Church is the Body of Christ; Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18,24
C. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another; Col 1:24

II. Objections to Catholic Teaching
A. Contrary to Deut 18:10-12, calling up the dead
1. Misinterpretation of Scripture; this is about the occult
2. Misunderstanding of Catholic practice and teaching; Catholics do not use mediums, spiritists, etc. to call up the dead
3. Saints in Heaven are alive; Mt 22:31-32 God is the God of the Living!
4. Mt 17:1-4, Elijah and Moses appear to Jesus and 3 disciples
B. Terminology: Prayer to Mary or Prayer to the Saints is not worshipping them; it is asking or re- questing their prayer and intercession. E.g., I pray thee, brothers and sisters, pray for me.
C. Saints in Heaven can’t hear us or see us; therefore, we cannot pray to them
1. Saints in Heaven do not have the same limitations that we have on Earth: Rev 21:21;1 Cor 13:12; 1 Cor 15:49; 2 Ptr 1:4; 1 Cor 2:9

1. God reveals certain knowledge to angels and saints in Heaven; 1 Cor 2:10, Rev 6:9-10, 1 Sam 28:8-19, Lk 16:19-31
   1. Angels and saints, to some extent, know what’s in a person’s heart and mind; Luke 15:7-10, Mt 22:29-30, Heb 12:1
      D. Prayer to Mary and the Saints is attributing God-like power to them
   2. Example of left hand sticking right hand with needle; all impulses 1st go through the brain
   3. All prayer 1st goes through Christ; everything is through Him, with Him, and in Him; Mary and the Saints have no power of their own

Summary:
1) Saints in Heaven are alive, not dead;
2) Saints and angels in Heaven have some knowledge of events, present and future, on Earth; and some knowledge of interior dispositions;
3) This knowledge is not of their own power, it is only through Jesus Christ.

II. Objections (cont’d)
E. Why waste your time praying to the Saints when you can go straight to Jesus?
1. Why waste your time asking me for prayer when you can go straight to Jesus?
2. Misunderstanding-you cannot go to the Saints with out 1st going to Jesus (Head of the Body)
3. Prayer of a righteous man; James 5:16, 1 Ptr 3:12, Heb 12:22-23, Job 42:7-10, Ex 17:8-13
4. If there are no righteous ones on earth (Rom 3:10),and therefore, according to Protestant argument, Mary was not sinless, who was James talking about in 5:16?
5. Saints in Heaven love us and want to pray for us; Love never ends 1 Cor 13:8

F. Biggest objection to Catholic teaching - 1 Tim 2:5; Jesus’ role as sole mediator between God and man
1. Catholics agree that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man. Jesus is the only one who is true God and true man; only by Jesus’ blood are we saved; but, as members of Jesus’ Body, we can share in His role as mediator as He allows us to
2. Moses, Abraham, Job are examples of mediation and intercession between God and man; praying for one another here on earth is an example of mediating and interceding between God and man
3. 1 Tim 2:5 is being misinterpreted
4. Only one foundation, Jesus: 1 Cor 3:11. Yet, other foundations: Eph 2:19-20, Rev 21:14
5. Only one Lord, Jesus: Eph 4:4-5 Yet, other lords: Rev 19:16, 1 Ptr 3:6
6. Only one judge, Jesus: James 4:12, 2 Tim 4:1. Yet, other judges: 1 Cor 6:2, Lk 22:28-30
7. Only one Father, God: Mt 23:9 Yet, other fathers: Acts 7:2, Acts 22:1, 1 Cor 4:15

II. Objections (cont’d)
8. Only one teacher, Jesus: Mt 23:6-8 (NKJV). Yet, other teachers: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor 12:28
9. More examples of intercessors/mediators: Mt 18:10, Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

Summary: Scripture tells us that there is only one Foundation, only Lord, only one Judge, only one Father, only one Teacher, just as it tells us there is one Mediator; yet, Scripture also shows us that there is more than one judge, more than one foundation, more than one lord, more than one judge, more than one father, more than one teacher. Does scripture contradict itself? No! Jesus is the head of the Body. Jesus grants different members of the Body the graces to share in His role as foundation, as lord, as judge, as father, as teacher, and yes, as mediator. The members of the Body are allowed…through, with, and in Jesus Christ…to share in the grace and glory of the Head, Jesus Christ. And, as we have seen, Scripture is full of examples of people sharing in the mediation of Christ.

The Communion of Saints is quite scriptural.

 

[mtr01]

You fail to understand the dynamic of the Early Church. Every little thing regarding the Faith was discussed, argued over, and scrutinized to make sure it was orthodox, for as you say…

There was [sic] many false teachers attacking the early church, where should one go to get apostolic teaching?

So, given that there were many heresies arising and that every novel idea was scrutinized, where are the written objections to intercessory prayer?

kaycee:

Several quotes from 200 years after the resurrection is hardly convincing.

Can you provide at least one example from the Early Church Fathers descibing that this practice was against the teachings of Jesus and should be denounced as a heretical practice? It should be easy, the ECF’s addressed every new heresy at it arose…surely they wrote something denouncing intercessory prayer…didn’t they?

 

[DJgang]

That’s not true.

The Communion of Saints

Presented by:

The Bible Christian Society
P.O. Box 424
Pleasant Grove, AL 35127

Copyright 2000, John Martignoni

biblechristiansociety.com/

aww, thought some folks might want the link to get some free cd’s…worth every penny to get it shipped.

 

[Church_Militant]

biblechristiansociety.com/

aww, thought some folks might want the link to get some free cd’s…worth every penny to get it shipped.

 

[savedsinner]

There was many false teachers attacking the early church, where should one go to get apostolic teaching?
Several quotes from 200 years after the resurrection is hardly convincing…

That is very easy.

You would go to the one true Church that Jesus established, where the word of God is passed on in the written and oral from.

The Roman Catholic Church.

It has put down all the false teachings through out the history of Christianity.

You don’t have to wait for 200 years to see quotes, they are early as 80 AD, heck, the New Testament hadn’t been finished yet.

You sure seem to fight the truth a lot in your replies.

 

[Bishopite]

Quite right. But even the bible uses terminology which makes the human out to be the one performing the act, rather than God. For example, Mk 6:13:And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.

And Acts 28:8:It happened that the father of Publius lay sick with fever and dysentery; and Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him healed him.
So saying that a saint answers a prayer is to be understood in the same way as saying that a disciple cast out demons and healed the sick. It’s just a form of shorthand.

Exactly. Ultimately it is God who answers all prayer, however He does allow us humans to have His power at times to heal and although we are physically doing the act, it is ultimately He who is the source of it and everything good (1 Cor 1:30-31). "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption; therefore, as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord.”